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Amish Horses...

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  • #61
    Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    You're kind of a failure at logical thinking, Paula.

    Stating that a high percentage of puppy mills are Amish owned does not equal 'all Amish own puppy mills' or 'all puppy mill owners are Amish'.

    Just like statements of fact do not equal prejudice.

    Maybe don't scold people for their "lazy thinking" until you master some reading comprehension skills.

    Just a thought.

    So, to follow your logic, the correct conclusion is that Amish who have puppy mills do so because they are Amish? The correct conclusion is that Amish are predisposed to treating animals (such as horses) poorly simply because they are Amish?

    I see.
    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
      So, to follow your logic, the correct conclusion is that Amish who have puppy mills do so because they are Amish? The correct conclusion is that Amish are predisposed to treating animals (such as horses) poorly simply because they are Amish?

      I see.
      Paula
      See, this is your issue - you seem to be incapable of thinking logically.

      I was simply pointing out the flaw in your "logic" and the irony of your scolding others for their "lazy thinking". I didn't draw any conclusions re: the Amish. It is simply a statement of fact - a high percentage of puppy millers are Amish.

      But hey, thanks for making my point, once again.
      "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
      -George Morris

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      • #63
        You're welcome. Anytime.

        Paula
        He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

        Comment


        • #64
          I think a large part of the problem is that as kids many if not most of us were taught that the Amish were "good" people, good to children, animals, etc. etc and in fact something of a cut above the rest of us in "Godliness" and then we grow up and find that they are just like us and in fact, sometimes worse. There really are a LOT of Amish puppy mills and yes they do go on the internet, in fact many sell from there with elaborate (fake) websites while their dogs languish in filthy barns. See they can have this other electronic stuff, just NOT IN THE HOUSE. So it's in the barn. And they have phone booths with answering machines. Add in the poor animal care that many provide and it probably makes us look on them a bit harsher than the regular hoi polloi animal neglecting public.

          Of course there are differences between different sects we know. But after all the videos and reports of the treatment of horses both in their barns and horse auctions, it's just hard to worry about levels of neglect. A smart farmer takes care of his livestock and a decent human being does more than just the bare minimum to keep them alive.
          Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

          Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

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          • #65
            I am wary of the kind of karma that comes with painting folks with such a broad brush. When I was looking at horses a few years ago, I found a beautiful, unbroke draft cross mare that I was interested in. The seller refused to consider me because she was convinced that dressage riders were hard on horses and dressage broke down horses. There was nothing I could say to change her perspective -I was just one person, one person with ambitions of dressage on her poor horse.

            So I'm going to try very hard not to do this to other people. And also, I have an Amish saddle maker and he's not cruel to his horses. Indeed he's dedicated his saddle making years to trying to fit the backs of these exotic crosses (with regards to conformation) to the extent that he has dedicated his skills to developing treeless saddles for them. This is not, to my mind, cruelty and contempt for horses. I could never say to him, "But Eli, you're Amish and kind to animals?"

            Look at it like a case/control study; if you have Amish who are cruel or thoughtless to their animals, and Amish who are not cruel or thoughtless to their animals, the determinant for cruelty and thoughtlessness is not being Amish.

            Paula
            He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
              Look at it like a case/control study; if you have Amish who are cruel or thoughtless to their animals, and Amish who are not cruel or thoughtless to their animals, the determinant for cruelty and thoughtlessness is not being Amish.

              Paula
              Logic fail. Again.

              (I have no opinion on the Amish, but your constant use of faulty logic is driving me up a wall).

              If there is a higher percentage of Amish that are cruel to animals than in the general population, being Amish might have something do with it.

              Because I know you will be confused...

              If we say that the Amish make up 1% of the general population, but 30% of the population of puppy mill owners, then, statistically, the Amish have a higher number of puppy mill owners than the general population and there is a positive correlation between being Amish and being an animal abuser.

              Now, as we all know correlation does not equal causation, but it isn't something to be dismissed out of hand because you know a cool Amish guy.
              "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
              -George Morris

              Comment


              • #67
                Well it is a true FACT that the largest group of puppy mill owners in this country are the Amish. I boycott anything & everything having to do with them. Their list of animal abuse is long & DOCUMENTED if anyone wants to take the time to dig it up. Last summer alone I must have heard of at least a dozen times that Amish horses were left tied up in the hot sun in hot asphalt parking lots until they were on the verge of collapse. And these were just the stories that made the news. I'll go on record as saying that I think they are on the whole an AWFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE. If I personally ever see any signs of animal abuse I don't care if it's the president himself, I'm gonna be on him like a tick! I think any time someone sees one of these horses being used & abused the person responsible should be called on it & loudly & if they won't listen you should get the local humane society involved & take pictures of the animals & the person responsible.
                Producing horses with gentle minds & brilliant movement!
                www.whitfieldfarm.shutterfly.com

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                • #68
                  It's a fact that the majority of people in jail are brown. So I'm going conclude that on the whole brown people are criminally oriented and probably shouldn't be trusted as a result.

                  And just because I know a couple of brown people who are not criminals doesn't detract from my theory that brown people are predisposed to criminal behavior.

                  How's that?
                  Paula
                  He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                    It's a fact that the majority of people in jail are brown. So I'm going conclude that on the whole brown people are criminally oriented and probably shouldn't be trusted as a result.

                    And just because I know a couple of brown people who are not criminals doesn't detract from my theory that brown people are predisposed to criminal behavior.

                    How's that?
                    Paula
                    Where is that brick wall emoticon when you need it?

                    You really and truly do not understand how to draw a conclusion from a data set, do you?

                    Here, I'll help you.

                    The majority of people in jail are brown, therefore, statistically, there is a positive correlation between being brown and being in jail.

                    What you are doing is attempting to make people look and/or feel like racists by projecting a conclusion not found in evidence.

                    It's a cute trick, but it's not working.
                    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                    -George Morris

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I'm not trying to make people feel like racists, I'm trying to get people to see they're being prejudiced against an entire group because of the behavior of some, and that in fact being Amish is not a determinant for bad behavior, any more than being brown is a determinant for criminality.

                      Paula
                      He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                        I'm not trying to make people feel like racists, I'm trying to get people to see they're being prejudiced against an entire group because of the behavior of some, and that in fact being Amish is not a determinant for bad behavior, any more than being brown is a determinant for criminality.

                        Paula
                        And what everyone else is trying to get you to see is that a statement of facts is not indicative of prejudice.

                        The Amish have a well documented high incidence of animal cruelty. To deny that their cultural values might have something to do with it is to deny reality. If their culture didn't have anything to do with it, they would have the same percentage of animal cruelty incidents as the general population.

                        I don't think anyone has said that ALL Amish are cruel to animals - they have said that there is a high incidence of animal cruelty among the Amish. Which you apparently hear as all black people are criminals. Your mind must be a fascinating place.
                        "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                        -George Morris

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                          And what everyone else is trying to get you to see is that a statement of facts is not indicative of prejudice.

                          The Amish have a well documented high incidence of animal cruelty. To deny that their cultural values might have something to do with it is to deny reality. If their culture didn't have anything to do with it, they would have the same percentage of animal cruelty incidents as the general population.

                          I don't think anyone has said that ALL Amish are cruel to animals - they have said that there is a high incidence of animal cruelty among the Amish. Which you apparently hear as all black people are criminals. Your mind must be a fascinating place.
                          The title of this thread is "AMISH HORSES" so I propose to you that exactly this is the intent, to say that certain cruelties or neglect of horses is indeed Amish.

                          To deny that their cultural values might have something to do with it is to deny reality. If their culture didn't have anything to do with it, they would have the same percentage of animal cruelty incidents as the general population.

                          So you are connecting "Amishness and cruelty". Similarly there are some people who conclude that since there are so many brown people in jail, there must be something about being brown (perhaps cultural values might have something to do with it) that lends itself to criminal behavior.

                          By your own criteria, the prejudice that brown people are criminally pre-disposed would also be correct since so many brown people are in jail (proportionally). So safely embrace both beliefs since you are using these criteria in similar ways.

                          I propose this:

                          Our brains are really good to detecting patterns, whether patterns exist or not. The benefit of this is that you don't get bitten by the same snake twice. The challenge of this is that we will see connections when connections do not exist. Case in point, there is animal cruelty all over, but these individuals who are cruel, also possess some characteristic that makes them stand out in your brain. Therefore your brain "logically"connects that significant characteristic with the phenomenon. In epidemiology we like to use the "Texas sharpshooter" scenario to show students how easy it is for bias to creep in to conclusions about observations.

                          So we try to guard against it and have some success by using things like case/control studies. In this case you look at the disease outcome -cruelty, and then you separate your groups by variables that might be associated with cruelty -say in this case, being Amish. Off the top of my head I'd say since cruelty exists whether the person is Amish or not, Amishness is not the determinant.




                          Paula
                          He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                            The title of this thread is "AMISH HORSES" so I propose to you that exactly this is the intent, to say that certain cruelties or neglect of horses is indeed Amish.
                            Well duh. Nobody is arguing that. Except maybe you, apparently.

                            To deny that their cultural values might have something to do with it is to deny reality. If their culture didn't have anything to do with it, they would have the same percentage of animal cruelty incidents as the general population.

                            So you are connecting "Amishness and cruelty". Similarly there are some people who conclude that since there are so many brown people in jail, there must be something about being brown (perhaps cultural values might have something to do with it) that lends itself to criminal behavior.
                            Oh how do I explain this to someone who so obviously doesn't want to understand? I don't believe you are as unintelligent as you pretend to be.

                            I believe that poverty has been shown to be a greater indicator of criminality. More black people are poor (generalization), more poor people are criminals (again generalization). But they are criminals probably because they are poor, not because they are black. So while there is a correlation between being black and being a criminal (and thus an association), the causation is most likely found elsewhere. Still following?

                            The Amish = cruelty correlation has no obvious causation. So we can see Point A (Being Amish) and Point C (High incidence of animal cruelty), but no Point B. But there is no denying the correlation between A and C.


                            By your own criteria, the prejudice that brown people are criminally pre-disposed would also be correct since so many brown people are in jail (proportionally). So safely embrace both beliefs since you are using these criteria in similar ways.


                            Paula
                            Nope, that's your own faulty logic. Again. You might want to have that looked at.
                            "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                            -George Morris

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                              Where is that brick wall emoticon when you need it?

                              You really and truly do not understand how to draw a conclusion from a data set, do you?

                              Here, I'll help you.

                              The majority of people in jail are brown, therefore, statistically, there is a positive correlation between being brown and being in jail.

                              What you are doing is attempting to make people look and/or feel like racists by projecting a conclusion not found in evidence.

                              It's a cute trick, but it's not working.
                              You are doing a damn good job of making yourself look like a racist.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                SNL is correct that corelation does not equal causation and looking at statistics does not make someone a racist.

                                It is true that there is a higher precentage of black males in prison then white males. Race does not necessarily indicate causation. For example, police profiling leading to more stops of blacks, poverty, homes without fathers, living in an area prone to crime and drugs, lack of education, and a lack of money leading to a lack of capable lawyers all add up. You can also look at the fact that blacks are more likely to commit blue collar crimes which more often end up with prison sentences then white collar crimes.


                                It's important to look at all the factors involved, and statistical corelation and causation is an important tool in reducing the number of people in prison.
                                http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                  It's a fact that the majority of people in jail are brown. So I'm going conclude that on the whole brown people are criminally oriented and probably shouldn't be trusted as a result.

                                  And just because I know a couple of brown people who are not criminals doesn't detract from my theory that brown people are predisposed to criminal behavior.

                                  How's that?
                                  Paula
                                  Two points to Paula.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    EXACTLY, enjoytheride, this was the point I (paulaedwina) was trying to make when I used the example. By the same token, Amish does not indicate causation with regards to the topic of this thread.

                                    Paula
                                    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      The point I was trying to make is that you have to look at the entire set of facts.

                                      Is there a higher percentage of Amish people who run puppy mills? That would be a fact and not an opinion. It could mean that there is something about being Amish that is involved, you would have to look at the rest of the information to determine cause. It doesn't mean that ALL Amish people are bad.

                                      There IS something about being black that makes more black people wind up in jail as statistics will show (or more specifically young black males), but it's an entire combination of complicated cultural events that make it so. We can't solve the problem of young black mails in jail without looking at all the factors.
                                      http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Hippolyta View Post
                                        You are doing a damn good job of making yourself look like a racist.
                                        Only if you don't know how to read.
                                        "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                                        -George Morris

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          And the cause points directly to their way of life. Animals are means to an end, a tool, most always. That fact alone makes them predisposed to using them up, squeezing every last cent out of them.

                                          They are not ever mere toys like they are for English.

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