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Dealing with the border from He!!-update and ? post 98

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  • #41
    Puhleez yourself, cssutton. I have a cute JRT to play with right here, so don't need to play tug a bone with you. Your argument is amusing, but I'll still stick to my side of it.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by horsepoor View Post
      I'm kind of in awe of those of you that live in communities where the police will come and hang out while your tenant removes their horse and tack. I am pretty sure if I made such a call in my community, they would laugh at me, if not charge me with something. I mean, this person is just a tenant, hasn't been violent or made threats (that I've read here) and expecting the local cops to be at a BO's beck and call for such a situation...wow.

      But do carry on.
      In my experience, law enforcement would much rather be involved proactively "to keep the peace". This boarder has already cursed out the barn owner husband. It never hurts to call or stop by the police station, explain the situation, and see what they say.
      Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

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      • #43
        Originally posted by mvp View Post
        Yabbut, how do you distinguish that person who will inherently go nuts prior to their going nuts?

        If one had a crystal ball this would work. The other solution is a good judge of character in the beginning, a good contract and a sense that you can and will enforce it. I think folks who know that they *can* get what they need don't get so verklempt about protecting that possibility. And they know that the best way to get the job done is the easy way. You can raise your DefCon later, but if you start there, then what?
        Should have added that in my case, the person had a long (as in years long) history of such behavior, at that point it was extremely unlikely this person was going to wake up in the morning and suddenly be a safer, more considerate equestrian, and when said person first came to the barn, they made no effort to conceal their behavior. Every red flag in the book was a flyin', but people were still willing to give her a shot.

        In most cases I absolutely agree with you, but every once in a while one comes along that's a real bad apple, and if you can avoid them, avoid them! BOs run businesses, not charities, they don't owe it to anyone to give them "one last chance" because they've been kicked out of every other boarding facility within 50 miles (you think I'm joking, but...)

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        • #44
          Originally posted by horsepoor View Post
          Puhleez yourself, cssutton. I have a cute JRT to play with right here, so don't need to play tug a bone with you. Your argument is amusing, but I'll still stick to my side of it.
          Maybe you should have been playing with him when you posted your first.

          It contributed nothing to the solution.

          Comment


          • #45
            Wow, just wow, what is wrong with people. Hope you get her out good and fast. PEople like that are miserable and inflict it on all they are around.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by cssutton View Post
              A couple of points.

              First, the leg wrap incident was neither the first nor the only incident.

              The boarder had become a big problem in many ways.

              Second, I would like to ask why you would want to stay in a barn run by a nut case BO.

              Unless you like staying in a barn with a nut case BO, there is no disadvantage in being asked to leave by a nut case BO.

              Regardless, a barn owner who writes any contract that allows a nut case boarder to stay, regardless of the boarders behavior, morals, honesty, sanity, etc., deserves what he gets.

              If I were writing a contract for my barn, your opinion on how it should be written and whether you would agree to it or not would not be a consideration. My barn. You stay in it under my terms, not yours.

              That simple.

              Putting your horse in another barn is not the same as a residential lease. There are probably 100 barns within a 20 mile radius of here, most of which would take a horse on a moment's notice, if not in a stall, certainly in the pasture which would give the owner time to find a barn that had stall space.....

              I find it odd that some of the posters here think that the barn owner must meet their (the horse owner's) contract terms. You have it backwards. The barn owner sets the terms, whether you like them or not and if you do not, go on to another barn.

              I think you have misunderstood my post, perhaps. But we seem to live in very different areas; where I've been... there aren't 10 barns in a 20 mile radius, and the good ones stay full with waiting lists. There is no way someone could just walk in out of the blue and have a stall (or even a pasture) with decent care the following day.

              And of course barn owners can set any terms or rules that they would like (and in my experience, they do!) In certain markets, an attractive facility may be able to implement and enforce rules that simply wouldn't fly in areas where there is more competition - like shorter hours, requirements to use barn services/vets/farriers or limit outside trainers or whatever. If they can stay full and profitable - hey, that's a free market for you.

              However in this economy, I see some really good barns teetering on the edge of financial viability, and they tend to be grateful to have stable, good paying, reasonable customers.

              In those markets, having particularly onerous terms/rules could cost them a fair amount of business. And I'd consider the possibility of being thrown out with zero notice a deal breaker, even if the BO appeared reasonable at the outset - because I've personally witnessed very normal-looking situations going south out of the blue, months or even years down the road.

              As an example, when I lived in CT, a wealthy amateur bought a run down farm and renovated it into a gorgeous facility with a beautiful show barn, brand new arenas, high end footing and fabulous turnout. My then-trainer moved her program to that farm and became the manager of the facility. For well over a year, everyone really loved it.

              One day, while the trainer was several states away at a multi-week show, the farm owner sent out an email to the trainer's clients/her boarders saying that she and the trainer were parting ways, and the trainer would only be allowed on the property until the following Monday. The trainer learned of this email from her *clients*... it came as a total shock to her. The situation got very ugly, very fast. It took several weeks to find stalls for all the clients' horses (which ended up at several different farms, since no one had 20+ stalls sitting around empty) and created an enormous disruption for everyone involved. The BO went on to do all sorts of crazy stuff, refusing to refund clients' deposits, locking the arenas and turnouts so they could not be used, etc.

              To this day I don't know what prompted all the craziness but I do know that if there had been an option in her contract to throw us all out overnight, we'd have been on the street with our horses with nowhere to go. And up until that point, the barn had been a pleasant, well run facility with almost no drama at all. It can happen.
              **********
              We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
              -PaulaEdwina

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              • #47
                Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                I think you have misunderstood my post, perhaps. But we seem to live in very different areas; where I've been... there aren't 10 barns in a 20 mile radius, and the good ones stay full with waiting lists. There is no way someone could just walk in out of the blue and have a stall (or even a pasture) with decent care the following day.

                And of course barn owners can set any terms or rules that they would like (and in my experience, they do!) In certain markets, an attractive facility may be able to implement and enforce rules that simply wouldn't fly in areas where there is more competition - like shorter hours, requirements to use barn services/vets/farriers or limit outside trainers or whatever. If they can stay full and profitable - hey, that's a free market for you.

                However in this economy, I see some really good barns teetering on the edge of financial viability, and they tend to be grateful to have stable, good paying, reasonable customers.

                In those markets, having particularly onerous terms/rules could cost them a fair amount of business. And I'd consider the possibility of being thrown out with zero notice a deal breaker, even if the BO appeared reasonable at the outset - because I've personally witnessed very normal-looking situations going south out of the blue, months or even years down the road.

                As an example, when I lived in CT, a wealthy amateur bought a run down farm and renovated it into a gorgeous facility with a beautiful show barn, brand new arenas, high end footing and fabulous turnout. My then-trainer moved her program to that farm and became the manager of the facility. For well over a year, everyone really loved it.

                One day, while the trainer was several states away at a multi-week show, the farm owner sent out an email to the trainer's clients/her boarders saying that she and the trainer were parting ways, and the trainer would only be allowed on the property until the following Monday. The trainer learned of this email from her *clients*... it came as a total shock to her. The situation got very ugly, very fast. It took several weeks to find stalls for all the clients' horses (which ended up at several different farms, since no one had 20+ stalls sitting around empty) and created an enormous disruption for everyone involved. The BO went on to do all sorts of crazy stuff, refusing to refund clients' deposits, locking the arenas and turnouts so they could not be used, etc.

                To this day I don't know what prompted all the craziness but I do know that if there had been an option in her contract to throw us all out overnight, we'd have been on the street with our horses with nowhere to go. And up until that point, the barn had been a pleasant, well run facility with almost no drama at all. It can happen.
                So I ask again, why would anyone stay one day more after finding the BO has flipped?

                I would have had my horse and stuff out of there within hours, whether I went to the same barn as the trainer or not.

                People like that do things to horses. And to people.

                There is another thread where a boarder paid extra for special feeding and found out later that the BO put the feed in front of the horse for the boarder to see and then removed it as soon as the boarder left.

                Who wants to keep their horse with people like that?

                But that is buyer's choice.
                Last edited by cssutton; Mar. 15, 2013, 10:34 AM.

                Comment


                • #48
                  cssutton, you seem to be missing the point of "there are no stalls or pasture available". Not everyone can move horse and tack with a days notice. And really, it sounds like this boarder is a pita, but not dangerous. Mountain out of a molehill.
                  Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Here's the thing -- if you are a crazy BO and have been in business for any length of time, word gets out. If you have onerous terms in your contract that you abuse, word gets out. Maybe not the first time (as in Lucasb's example) but I'm certain that the horse community knew all about that BO once she kicked Lucasb's trainer out.

                    I run a small, private barn with 8 boarded horses (and two of my own). I do have a good contract (because yes, I am a lawyer). I've never had to enforce any terms or kick anyone out under circumstances described in the OP. Having been a professional, I believe I run my barn in a professional, courteous way. And I expect to be treated similarly.

                    If a boarder ever cursed me out (without cause; if there were reasons for their behavior (like, normally a decent person, but under stress because of truly bad news or something, I'd be more tolerant) they'd be out of my barn in a New York minute. Don't know if I'd say 48 hours or give them a week, but I'm pretty sure that's what I'd do.

                    I find knowing my boundaries, and being firm and clear about expectations leads to NO DRAMA. Zero. (It may help that most owners don't visit frequently as their horses are retired here, but actually I doubt it as all the boarders are decent, rational, kind people).

                    And with all this firmness? I am full. No waiting list, as it can be years to have a vacancy.

                    We don't know the nuance or the details in the OP's situation. If she's the crazy one, word will get out. However if the HO is the one who's behaving badly the advice to get her out is good. (I would point out that she's already given her notice, so presumably she has a barn lined up (though, they may not have room on short notice). I do not understand those saying she should stay and the BO suck it up.
                    https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
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                    www.PeonyVodka.com

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                    • #50
                      Unless there's more to the story than OP already stated, I'm not seeing dangerous either. Just make a generous offer to get her to leave, let her go with your head up. You might want to change the lock on the tack door though, as a precaution.

                      I have my horse on my own property, but yeah, I'd never sign a boarding contract that would allow the BO to throw me out with no notice.

                      As a BO, I did ask a border to leave when she refused veterinary care for her obviously hurting/injured horse. I refunded the rest of the month, she picked him up that day.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Gestalt View Post
                        cssutton, you seem to be missing the point of "there are no stalls or pasture available". Not everyone can move horse and tack with a days notice. And really, it sounds like this boarder is a pita, but not dangerous. Mountain out of a molehill.
                        Why assume there aren't any available? We have no idea about the OP's area.

                        "Dangerous" is not the only reason to want someone out of your barn. PITA is sufficient! (depending on how they are a PITA).
                        https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
                        Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peonyvodka/
                        www.PeonyVodka.com

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by SMF11 View Post
                          Why assume there aren't any available? We have no idea about the OP's area.

                          "Dangerous" is not the only reason to want someone out of your barn. PITA is sufficient! (depending on how they are a PITA).
                          Are you really a lawyer? Hmmmmm... I'm not assuming anything, merely saying the possibility of no stalls available might be real. And going Rambo on someone because they are a pita to you doesn't scream "professional".
                          Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Gestalt View Post
                            Are you really a lawyer? Hmmmmm...
                            Stanford Law School Class of 1986.
                            https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
                            Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peonyvodka/
                            www.PeonyVodka.com

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                            • #54
                              The "hmmmmmm" went with the no stalls comment.

                              The "are you a lawyer" question is because I am surprised you would throw a boarder out because of one verbal confrontation. Especially since they already gave their notice to move. Some areas do not have tons of boarding options.

                              Peace be with you.
                              Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Gestalt, I probably would not throw someone out if they were otherwise great, but had one verbal meltdown. In the OP it doesn't sound like that boarder is otherwise great. However depending on the verbal meltdown I might suggest they find a barn that better suited them. I don't know, I don't find the need to curse people out, generally. It is possible to have a civilized conversation where two people disagree, or one explains their point of view.

                                Despite sounding very tough, I also try to see the best in people, and understand that -- usually -- they are just doing the best they can and that they want the best for their horses, which is all most people want.
                                https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
                                Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peonyvodka/
                                www.PeonyVodka.com

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                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by cssutton View Post
                                  So I ask again, why would anyone stay one day more after finding the BO has flipped?

                                  I would have had my horse and stuff out of there within hours, whether I went to the same barn as the trainer or not.

                                  People like that do things to horses. And to people.

                                  There is another thread where a boarder paid extra for special feeding and found out later that the BO put the feed in front of the horse for the boarder to see and then removed it as soon as the boarder left.

                                  Who wants to keep their horse with people like that?

                                  But that is buyer's choice.
                                  Because you have to have somewhere to GO. Is that really so hard to understand?

                                  It was (is) a suburban area with a limited number of facilities - and zoning rules that prohibit things like, say, putting the horse in your backyard for a few days.

                                  I happened to have a trailer, so for me the actual moving was not an issue. But for quite a few other boarders - once they found a place to go, they had to line up transportation. It's not always quite as easy as you seem to think.

                                  Also, after an experience like that, you want to do a bit of homework so you don't end up in another bad situation, and go from the frying pan into the fire. In that part of the world, finding a barn that happened to have a ton of available stalls would have actually been a huge red flag - because the good places tended to be, and stay, full to the brim. With waiting lists.
                                  **********
                                  We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                  -PaulaEdwina

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    the reality is: we're all formed by what we've personally encountered in the past...or not.
                                    In my situation? I was involved for many many months in a tack theft situation that had over 10 years of other involved barns. Really. no kidding. Why? because someone with nice looking rig/horses/tack/doesn't (!!) have to go thru a background check. Shows up with a great story and looks like : Wow! 2 horses! great for our farm. Knowledgeable horseman/woman. great for our farm. etc, etc. NO ONE seems to check/follow up on their 'stories' about having to move, or where they've come from 2 barns back. Person in this instance: indicted by Grand Jury for tack theft. Plea bargained GUILTY to obtain misdemeanor. Told barn she drove horses to in one day that 'her' barn had a snow roof collapse, and she had to move overnight. NOT TRUE. But, oh, yeah....she was believed and welcomed in. Anyway. My only point was: yes. Bad apples are out there, and for some? crazy reason, BOs get taken in by people like this...because they 'seem' knowledgeable, caring, intelligent....and therefore....it goes on..... Could give a list of over 15 barns thru this state that she was told to leave from...it was so sad to find that out, but realize nothing was in place to protect the next BO. So, yeah. For me? I get the: CRAP! We've got a problem Houston. Cause I've been a victim of same...and found out through the process that it happened over. and over. and over. again.
                                    ayrabz
                                    "Indecision may or may not be my problem"
                                    --Jimmy Buffett

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                                    • #58
                                      First...hugs to you for your situation. Second...as a landlord I will not let any one rent from me until I get references and they are checked.
                                      No exceptions.
                                      Ask me how I came to this position? House rental to a drug addicted nurse, with a psycho gun toting postal worker husband ( who scared the hell out of me). They SEEMED very nice and stable on first light...until the rental $hit hit the fan. Several thousand dollars and months of repairs later..I learned my lesson. I do not see why stall rental is any different that house rental..a good reference check can and probably will save you a lot of misery.
                                      If a prospective tenant will not give references.. or the references don't check out clean-on to the next applicant.
                                      Life is too short to let those persons ruin your day ( or month)
                                      the NOT!! Spoiled!! Arabian Protectavest poster pony lives on in my heart

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                                      • #59
                                        Just wanted to add my experiences.

                                        Firstly, in my community, the police absolutely will come to your property if you believe there will be a confrontation. The one time I should have had them here and didn't I ended up filing a police report. The officer told me to always call them if I think there will be a problem. As mentioned before, they would prefer to prevent a problem rather than deal with the aftermath.

                                        Secondly, I have read SMF11s posts on here for as long as I've been on Coth and I find her to be very level headed and fair. I think the difference in how much a BO will tolerate may be related to the size of the farm. Someone on your personal property who is blatantly disregarding the rules and challenging you is different from someone in a large boarding facility. Why? Because the bullies often pick the smaller farms believing they can force their way because there are less people to confront them, often just the BO. A large barn will have a BO, BM and several boarders who can stand up against a bully.

                                        I try to be rational but I actually asked someone to leave after 2 weeks because she was such a PITA. I could have easily cared for her special needs horse but there was no way I wanted to deal with her when it became obvious the type of person she was. You have no idea how emotionally draining it is to have someone constantly challenge your knowledge, experience and work ethic when you put heart and soul into what you do and try to give the best care that you can. I think this is why so many BOs stop boarding. The great boarders make it all worthwhile but the PITAs will suck the life and joy out of boarding and make you dread seeing their car pulling up your driveway. To get a pit in your stomach every time that person shows up makes you feel uncomfortable on your own property.

                                        Frankly, I'm sure my reputation isn't perfect because I have learned to stand up to boarders who try to bully or take advantage of me. In order to survive in this business, it is something that you have to learn to do.
                                        http://thepitchforkchronicles.com

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                                        • #60
                                          Here's how I got rid of a PITA boarder who had also been kicked out of multiple barns and had given me her notice: Front gate was, and always had been, locked after barn hours, and barn alarm codes were changed on the day she gave notice, so no way she could be there when I wasn't. When she would arrive, I would be there, within eyesight of her, and with my cell phone camera set to start recording...the first time she started being bitchy, I held up the phone, and I just kept filming...and she realized what was happening and shut up, went about her business and left. It took about three days of her realizing that she couldn't get away with being a harpy and that anything she did could end up as evidence....at which point she took me up on my offer of refunding the balance of the month's board if she left early. Problem solved.
                                          "Argue for your limitations and you get to keep them."
                                          -Richard S. Bach

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