• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Dealing with the border from He!!-update and ? post 98

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    For the safety of your other boarders (and yourself) I would get this nut job out of the barn asap. Please consider doing the following:
    Certified letter including refund of all board money for the rest of the month, a call to the police about the verbal altercation the other night and make sure you cite the transgression from the written board policy about 9 pm barn closing, then set a date, like tomorrow, and have the police there for your protection and to ensure that if she becomes disruptive, aggressive or worse, you have both witnesses and protection.
    The horse world is full of the best of the best, but also the worst of the worst. I've had boarders, and I ran a co op, and I ran into that kind of trouble making lunatic last summer, so my advice comes from experience. You can't get far enough away from toxic people like that.
    Best of luck to you.

    Comment


    • #22
      Man, all of you HOs on the "throw her out because she's a nutter!" are sh!tting where you eat.

      This HO so far has been heinous to be sure, but she has fulfilled the major parts of her contract. You guys want the BO to be the one to break the contract, based on that.

      1. As the poser-lawyer, I don't think the law works that way. You must wait for some actual harm and then bring your complaint, not preemptively screw the other guy. Of course, you get to do everything within the law and reason to prevent harm to yourself; in fact, I believe this is an obligation.

      2. As spectators, we always have a quick solution to some story about HO treating BO badly and those true shockers in which BO mistreat horses after a HO has given notice. Somewhere, however, each side thinks it was justified in its nuttiness.

      But it's really a bad idea when the industry standard gets so low as to encourage adults to become underhanded. So no, friends who will board horses in the future, the "throw the b!tch out" strategy is not one you can afford. The right one is "for the love of God, everyone get professional for a minute, agree to disagree and finish the business deal as best you can."
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by mvp View Post
        Man, all of you HOs on the "throw her out because she's a nutter!" are sh!tting where you eat.

        This HO so far has been heinous to be sure, but she has fulfilled the major parts of her contract. You guys want the BO to be the one to break the contract, based on that.

        1. As the poser-lawyer, I don't think the law works that way. You must wait for some actual harm and then bring your complaint, not preemptively screw the other guy. Of course, you get to do everything within the law and reason to prevent harm to yourself; in fact, I believe this is an obligation.

        2. As spectators, we always have a quick solution to some story about HO treating BO badly and those true shockers in which BO mistreat horses after a HO has given notice. Somewhere, however, each side thinks it was justified in its nuttiness.

        But it's really a bad idea when the industry standard gets so low as to encourage adults to become underhanded. So no, friends who will board horses in the future, the "throw the b!tch out" strategy is not one you can afford. The right one is "for the love of God, everyone get professional for a minute, agree to disagree and finish the business deal as best you can."
        I am neither a barn owner nor a boarder.

        I keep my own on my farm.

        But I do have extensive business experience as well as owning horses for many years.

        So what you are saying is that there is absolutely no reason on earth for breaking a contract.

        If the boarder were a known barn burner, tack thief, dog poisoner, or whatever; never mind. He/she has a contract.

        Just reason with them and tough it out.

        In this case, the boarder is jeopardizing the BO's business and maybe worse.

        Give her any prepaid board money back and tell her to leave.

        Once you tell her to leave, she is trespassing in the eyes of the law.

        If you have in fact broken a contract without cause, she will have to sue.

        That will not happen.

        Comment


        • #24
          Hmmm, while I understand wanting to tough out the 30 days and stay professional, there are some people who are legitimately dangerous enough that they need to leave the premises *immediately* because it's only a matter of time before something blows up and someone gets hurt and/or loses a great deal of money. As an owner of a horse on the property, I would be steaming and lawyering up to sue (both boarder AND BO) should something happen to my horse (done by Crazy Boarder) when she was a known risk. How can you prove it? Security cameras. A PITA for sure, but sometimes that blinky red light can prevent things before they happen, and if they do happen anyway, you can go after whoever is culpable with the evidence they provide and sue them for all they've got.

          Had this sort of situation happen to me: Woman comes in to barn with reputation for dangerous and reckless habits, BO warned of this multiple times but chooses to ignore it, my horse ends up with an injury that takes months to heal because of one reckless action done by Woman. Woman is vindictive enough to think that she can verbally assault me and tell me what a horrible person I am, etc. etc. after the fact because somehow her actions have made me a target (not sure why as I never had much to do with her, but that is irrelivant). Believe me, if my vet bills had been about $100 more than they were, I'd have gone looking for some compensation, aggressively.

          Point of the above anecdote is, if this person is well and truly a danger, you could be putting yourself at risk legally by allowing her to stay. Either she goes now, or it is understood that she takes ONE step out of bounds during her 30 days and police are involved, she has 24 hrs to leave, etc.

          Comment


          • #25
            Here is my advice- and I'm not a lawyer- if you come up with a plan that deviates from the contract- and she agrees to it- make a new contract stating the agreement that you will both sign.

            I knew a person who used to skip out on a lot of rent by not paying their rent-living rent free for a few months while the eviction process got going- and then suing the landlord for some small detail in the way they didn't go about the eviction process right. Did this over and over. That may not be this boarder's game- but I would not leave her with any ammo is all I'm saying.

            Sorry for your stress.

            Comment


            • #26
              Here is my advice- and I'm not a lawyer- if you come up with a plan that deviates from the contract- and she agrees to it- make a new contract stating the agreement that you will both sign.

              I knew a person who used to skip out on a lot of rent by not paying their rent-living rent free for a few months while the eviction process got going- and then suing the landlord for some small detail in the way they didn't go about the eviction process right. Did this over and over. That may not be this boarder's game- but I would not leave her with any ammo is all I'm saying.

              Sorry for your stress.

              Comment


              • #27
                Do it the easy way, OP. Don't go in with guns blazing and up the ante. Offer her a refund, either the amount left or the full month. If you really want her out, offer the full month.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Do NOT write any letter that is specific in nature.

                  Remember that it could be read by others, if not in court.

                  Write something vague but that still makes the point, like:

                  "You and I both agree that you are extremely unhappy in our barn and would like to find a place more suitable to your needs.

                  With that in mind, we are refunding that portion of your monthly payment which you will not use."

                  "Since as of today, you have no payment for services in effect, you are to remove your horse before 5:00 PM tomorrow."

                  "We will be at the barn to assist you in loading and to unlock the tack room so you may remove your tack."

                  And I would have the sheriff there at that time.

                  Once you tel her to leave, she is trespassing. Whether that violates the contract is a separate matter of contract law.

                  She will not sue, especially if she understands the power of deposition.

                  As for writing a new agreement as to how she is to depart, forget it. She will not cooperate.

                  So what if she does sue. To collect, she must show that she has been damaged. Removing a horse and putting her in some other stable on short notice is not really damage.

                  What is damage is if that horse should colic and run up a big bill or die while in your barn.

                  I would not let the sun set on my barn with her in it.

                  Were it me, my contracts in the future would specify that the contract can be terminated at my discretion and without cause.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Chai and CSsutton are exactly right. Give a refund, give a deadline, and have either a Sheriff's Deputy or if the deputy isn't possible get some other people around who can serve as witnesses. And I definitely agree with locking the tack room and anything vulnerable, and letting the boarder take their stuff out only as they're leaving, and never coming back. Don't even listen to explanations, or any delaying tactics. Just state your deadline and what will happen, and don't discuss anything else but the time and date of departure. It the soon-to-be ex-boarder's problem to find other boarding for the horse, and not yours.
                    You can't fix stupid-Ron White

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by JanM View Post
                      Chai and CSsutton are exactly right. Give a refund, give a deadline, and have either a Sheriff's Deputy or if the deputy isn't possible get some other people around who can serve as witnesses. And I definitely agree with locking the tack room and anything vulnerable, and letting the boarder take their stuff out only as they're leaving, and never coming back. Don't even listen to explanations, or any delaying tactics. Just state your deadline and what will happen, and don't discuss anything else but the time and date of departure. It the soon-to-be ex-boarder's problem to find other boarding for the horse, and not yours.
                      When I said that removing the horse is not damage, I did not mean to infer that the BO should remove the horse and place it in another barn.

                      I should have said that requiring the owner to move the horse to another barn does not constitute damage.

                      An inconvenience is not damage.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I think mvp is on the right track here. And I agree that the advice to escalate the situation (throw the woman out first thing in the AM, get the police, etc) is really something of a slippery slope.

                        Really my advice boils down to: take a deep breath, continue to be pleasant and professional, and hang in there until the end of the month if necessary... though I'd consider offering a pro rata refund if she leaves sooner.

                        From a practical perspective, telling this person they have to be gone tomorrow is likely to be simply something she can't comply with. Was it *really* that big of a deal that she wanted to wrap her horse 30 minutes past closing time? I'd turn a blind eye to something like that with someone who was already leaving shortly... not worth the aggravation. Your other loyal customers aren't going to be swayed by the one who is leaving; they're already counting the days until peace returns. Be the one whose demeanor was irreproachable even in the face of provocation and you will do yourself more good from a PR standpoint than you can imagine. Stoop to the nastiness exhibited by the crummy about to be former boarder and there will be some people who will understandably assume there was fault on both sides.

                        And to mvp's other point - I agree. I consider myself a really good customer. I have a nice, well mannered horse, I keep him in good condition, pay on time etc. I would NEVER sign a contract that put me at risk for being sent packing on zero notice at a BO's whim. Having dealt with a couple normal-appearing (but actually crazy) BOs in the past... I just wouldn't sign up for that.
                        **********
                        We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                        -PaulaEdwina

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I agree that you don't want to escalate an already volatile situation, but I've had boarders, have been a boarder, ran a co-op and worked in a large barn throughout the years. A boarder who is disruptive, does not obey the barn rules (and a 9 pm barn closing time is very generous), is upsetting other boarders with drama while running you down to them is a very toxic element in the barn.
                          It is very important that you get that person out of your barn with as little additional drama, but as much self protection as possible. I was a boarder at a barn where there was an ugly situation between the barn owner and two boarders. The police were there to supervise the departure of the disgruntled boarders and I witnessed the departure. I thought it was very smart of the barn owner to protect herself like that. I've never had to go that route with a boarder, but I did have to get rid of disruptive co-op members who didn't live up to their responsibilities and boarders at my own barn who were disobeying barn rules (took my truck without permission) and my feeling is the sooner the better, and losing a little bit of board money is well worth it to be rid of people who make going near the barn a stomach wrenching experience.
                          Good luck to you with this decision.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                            I think mvp is on the right track here. And I agree that the advice to escalate the situation (throw the woman out first thing in the AM, get the police, etc) is really something of a slippery slope.

                            Really my advice boils down to: take a deep breath, continue to be pleasant and professional, and hang in there until the end of the month if necessary... though I'd consider offering a pro rata refund if she leaves sooner.

                            From a practical perspective, telling this person they have to be gone tomorrow is likely to be simply something she can't comply with. Was it *really* that big of a deal that she wanted to wrap her horse 30 minutes past closing time? I'd turn a blind eye to something like that with someone who was already leaving shortly... not worth the aggravation. Your other loyal customers aren't going to be swayed by the one who is leaving; they're already counting the days until peace returns. Be the one whose demeanor was irreproachable even in the face of provocation and you will do yourself more good from a PR standpoint than you can imagine. Stoop to the nastiness exhibited by the crummy about to be former boarder and there will be some people who will understandably assume there was fault on both sides.

                            And to mvp's other point - I agree. I consider myself a really good customer. I have a nice, well mannered horse, I keep him in good condition, pay on time etc. I would NEVER sign a contract that put me at risk for being sent packing on zero notice at a BO's whim. Having dealt with a couple normal-appearing (but actually crazy) BOs in the past... I just wouldn't sign up for that.
                            A couple of points.

                            First, the leg wrap incident was neither the first nor the only incident.

                            The boarder had become a big problem in many ways.

                            Second, I would like to ask why you would want to stay in a barn run by a nut case BO.

                            Unless you like staying in a barn with a nut case BO, there is no disadvantage in being asked to leave by a nut case BO.

                            Regardless, a barn owner who writes any contract that allows a nut case boarder to stay, regardless of the boarders behavior, morals, honesty, sanity, etc., deserves what he gets.

                            If I were writing a contract for my barn, your opinion on how it should be written and whether you would agree to it or not would not be a consideration. My barn. You stay in it under my terms, not yours.

                            That simple.

                            Putting your horse in another barn is not the same as a residential lease. There are probably 100 barns within a 20 mile radius of here, most of which would take a horse on a moment's notice, if not in a stall, certainly in the pasture which would give the owner time to find a barn that had stall space.....

                            I find it odd that some of the posters here think that the barn owner must meet their (the horse owner's) contract terms. You have it backwards. The barn owner sets the terms, whether you like them or not and if you do not, go on to another barn.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I'm kind of in awe of those of you that live in communities where the police will come and hang out while your tenant removes their horse and tack. I am pretty sure if I made such a call in my community, they would laugh at me, if not charge me with something. I mean, this person is just a tenant, hasn't been violent or made threats (that I've read here) and expecting the local cops to be at a BO's beck and call for such a situation...wow.

                              But do carry on.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I completely agree with everything cs sutton has said.
                                https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
                                Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peonyvodka/
                                www.PeonyVodka.com

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by horsepoor View Post
                                  I'm kind of in awe of those of you that live in communities where the police will come and hang out while your tenant removes their horse and tack. I am pretty sure if I made such a call in my community, they would laugh at me, if not charge me with something. I mean, this person is just a tenant, hasn't been violent or made threats (that I've read here) and expecting the local cops to be at a BO's beck and call for such a situation...wow.

                                  But do carry on.
                                  When any property owner asks a person to leave his property, that person becomes a trespasser from that point until he leaves.

                                  The cops are duty bound to remove any person trespassing on your property.

                                  If you don't believe that, go into any public place; bar, eating establishment, grocery store, etc., and do something totally obnoxious, not necessarily violent or criminal, to the point that you are asked to leave.

                                  Then refuse.

                                  Just see what happens from that point on.

                                  Lease/tenant law is complex and I have very little experience in that, and I am not a lawyer.

                                  However I suspect that a contract to feed and care for your horse is simply that; a contract and it does not cause you to be subject to real estate law and its definition of a tenant.
                                  Last edited by cssutton; Mar. 14, 2013, 11:30 PM.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Oh, I'm not doubting you can call the cops in after an altercation as you describe. Just this idea that they'll come hang around because you expect this person to do something bad, even though they have given you absolutely no cause to expect it...well, you all have some pretty accommodating and overstaffed police crews, I guess. Next time I'm selling something on craigslist, I'll call my local cops for an escort just in case it goes badly. Those crazy CLers, you know.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by bluebuckets View Post
                                      ... there are some people who are legitimately dangerous enough that they need to leave the premises *immediately* because it's only a matter of time before something blows up and someone gets hurt and/or loses a great deal of money.
                                      Yabbut, how do you distinguish that person who will inherently go nuts prior to their going nuts?

                                      If one had a crystal ball this would work. The other solution is a good judge of character in the beginning, a good contract and a sense that you can and will enforce it. I think folks who know that they *can* get what they need don't get so verklempt about protecting that possibility. And they know that the best way to get the job done is the easy way. You can raise your DefCon later, but if you start there, then what?
                                      The armchair saddler
                                      Politically Pro-Cat

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by horsepoor View Post
                                        Oh, I'm not doubting you can call the cops in after an altercation as you describe. Just this idea that they'll come hang around because you expect this person to do something bad, even though they have given you absolutely no cause to expect it...well, you all have some pretty accommodating and overstaffed police crews, I guess. Next time I'm selling something on craigslist, I'll call my local cops for an escort just in case it goes badly. Those crazy CLers, you know.
                                        Please.

                                        Tell me how you equate expelling a person from your property who is committing trespass equates to a Clist purchase.

                                        Why didn't you use a trip to the grocery store as an example?

                                        Actually I know that some states allow you to remove the person yourself even if you must use "reasonable" force, but that is dangerous both from a physical and legal standpoint.

                                        To evict a tenant, which is something else, you need a court order and along with that comes the cops.

                                        But you don't need a court order to remove a trespasser.

                                        Apparently you don't know that committing trespass is breaking the law, just the same as peeping, threatening, whatever.

                                        Non-violent, but still breaking the law.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Here's an idea - call the offensive boarder up try to initiate a sane/professional phone call. try not to let her get you riled up -some people thrive on this kind of drama and will always find fault w/ someone or something else - not them. Politely give her the option of leaving early, volunteer to prorate her board if she opts to leave early; let her know that if she remains she must adhere to your barn rules..no exception - otherwise it creates chaos for other boarders - meaning if PIA boarder can come at 10Pm why can't I..

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X