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Morgan Assoc. approves use of bands/turnbuckles UPDATE page 12

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Two Simple:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lazy Palomino Hunter:
    Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

    check out the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!
    What a *&%^$#@ freak show. That's all it is. I have limited, albeit disgusting experience with padded up horses. The gaits are a b*&ch to ride and the horses I worked with were seething idiot demons, I assume because they were uncomforable in pain. Just a freak show. I loathe the hateful devils that pad horses up like this.

    If anyone can do so PLEASE check out the canter in the "performance horse" section of the website she posted here. It's enough to make you puke. I've ridden it and after I got over the shock and the tears, I vowed to never look to it again. This just makes my gutts turn inside out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think your atttitude is enough to make ME puke. Your lack of knowlegde in gaited horses runs right out in the open. You call them seething idiot demons, but it seems that you the patience to get to know the horses, and their way of going. That, or you are too lazy to work at it. This thread is nothing but a way for people to bash horses, and ways that they nothing about. I don't come out here and bash the jumper, or dressage horses. You like a bunch of hate filled ignorant people. You wonder why people think that you snotty. Take a step back... look at yourselves. It seems you like you are all just trying to push your beliefs on someone else. If someone likes their horses, and what they do why can't you just leave them be. The majority of you go around acting like their horses are stupid, wild, sored, fill in the blank. You make me sick.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Immortality:
      If someone likes their horses, and what they do why can't you just leave them be.
      Actually, we can't do whatever we want with our horses - abuse is illegal. I think the argument here is whether this is boarderline abusive or not.

      Originally posted by Immortality:
      I don't come out here and bash the jumper, or dressage horses. You like a bunch of hate filled ignorant people. You wonder why people think that you snotty.
      I think people who have gaited breeds have just as much of a reputation for being snotty as dressage riders and hunter/jumpers, so that isn't really a valid argument.

      Comment


      • #43
        Immorality - Easy! - I've been around Morgans for about 25 years - used to show way back when. In those days some would weight the shoes and/or keep long feet - but not to the extent you see today. We kept all ours barefoot or 'flatshod' and showed each in a variety of disciplines - saddleseat (Park in those days), dressage, endurance, driving, gymkhana. Many times we would be switching saddles at the shows going from a Park class, to jumping, to gymkhana, to inhand.

        Speaking on Morgans only -
        Personally I would prefer to see all weighted shoes and unnaturally long feet banned for showing. Enhancing a 'natural' gait while training is to be expected (using weight rings, weighted shoes, etc.), but I feel the 'enhancements' should be removed for showing. The gaited horses used to be known for their comfortable gaits for riders that spent long, long hours in the saddle. Now with the unnatural footwear they are relegated to arena work, and receive limited and/or supervised turnout.
        We did not have any of the 'long tall' modern Morgans but rather kept to the old style. If a Morgan is more than 15.3, has a long back, long face, and/or narrow forehead, it is more than likely there is something besides Morgan blood in there somewhere. In the 20's and 30's quite a few 'midnight breedings' occurred where the resident Morgan stallion's name was put as the sire, but the get didn't quite run 'true'. Hmm, 'Sailor' black bay, is quite stocky, 15H, has a wavy mane/tail, short back, wide flat forehead. 'Lady' true black, 14.2H, Lippet bred, compact little packer. Their get, 'Lil Sailor Gal' chestnut, is gonna be tall 15.3 minimum, and looks very elegant with her long face, upheadedness, high hock and knee action, and slender build. So, sometimes looking at the back generations won't give you a true reading - look at the horse.

        The Morgan used to be hailed as a very versatile breed - show saddleseat one weekend, do an endurance ride the next, maybe a combined driving event another, give pony rides to the neighborhood kids, hack out to the beach bareback, run barrels, do a dressage test, maybe a 3 phase event, and lets haul some logs too. That to me is what a Morgan should be.
        Bridal Sweet 05/28/1983 to 01/23/2008


        Comment


        • #44
          Just some information for those who don't know the differences between Tennessee Walking Horses (especially Big Lick shod ones) and American Saddlebred Show Horses:

          There is not a specific rule for Saddlebreds as to how many pads can be used that I know of, with the exception of certain class types (Country Pleasure) yet I have never in all the shows I have been to seen a horse padded up like a Big Lick Walking horse. No breed wants to be teamed up with that mess!

          I use a rubber pad on my horses, expecially thoses with extreme motion,weather it helps their motion or not. A rubber pad acts like a tennis shoe does for humans and helps to keep the joints from getting sore. I currently show a 19 year old mare. The higher a horse lifts his feet - the harder they will hit the ground. A leather pad (about 1/4 of 1 inch) is placed next to the hoof so the hoof can breathe and we carve out a hole in the center of the pads on the back feet.

          As for the people who say that they prefer 'au natural' - does that mean that you do not use shoes on your horse at all? Because any type of shoes are not 'au natural'. I work my show horses outside most of the time on trails. The dry sandy-clay type of soil would have my horses pretty sore pretty quickly given the fact that we ride daily.

          If you sore a Saddlebred - you will have a lame horse. Even the most inexperienced spectator could spot a limping horse. Horses can not trot 'square' if they are sore and every class for Saddlebreds - other than lead line, requires the horses to trot.

          I have enjoyed the conversation here - but just wanted to post this because a few people seem to think that TWH and Saddlebreds are the same - or at least they are shod the same. This is a very common assumption here in Texas.
          Julie
          www.equusvilla.blogspot.com
          www.ridingaside.blogspot.com
          www.miniaturecheviot.blogspot.com

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Immortality:
            If someone likes their horses, and what they do why can't you just leave them be.
            Actually, we can't do whatever we want with our horses - abuse is illegal. I think the argument here is whether this is boarderline abusive or not.

            Originally posted by Immortality:
            I don't come out here and bash the jumper, or dressage horses. You like a bunch of hate filled ignorant people. You wonder why people think that you snotty.
            I think people who have gaited breeds have just as much of a reputation for being snotty as dressage riders and hunter/jumpers, so that isn't really a valid argument. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


            I can't say they are all that snotty. We have many open shows inviting all breeds & disciplines. We have had a whopping one horse show up for hunt seat classes. If it weren't for the gaited horses there would be no show. Spotted saddle horses, saddlebreds, walking horses, racking horses are there in endless amounts. The last show we held had 272 entries. Almost all of them were gaited horses with exception of some quarter horses.

            Forgot to add:

            I am not talking about illegal done things to horses. Someone can say they have their horse shod, and GODFORBID! It seems as if people aren't bunched into thinking whatever the mojority of you believe, that they are just stupid, and should have their horses taken away. I can say I show, and that would be wrong. If I said that I let my horse stand in the stall, that would be wrong. It doesn't matter what people do, you guys are just never happy. You have to bash on them until time ends. Anytime some says something about bands, or shoeing... here goes the Saddlebreds, and Walking Horses being thrown into. A Saddlebred & Walking Horse are nothing alike. Travel diffrently, diffrent personalities, conformation differences, etc. But nevermind... you only read, and believe what you want too. No one will ever be able to convince you that a Walking Horse, a Saddlebred, or Morgans are diffrent breeds. You just lump them all together no matter what.

            I know I sound rude, but it just ruffles me that people don't care about other people. They seem to care about themselves. Do you go up to children you don't know, and tell them all this bad stuff you "know" to be true if you see them on a Walking Horse or Saddlebred? People should be happy with whatever horse they choose. They shouldn't feel the ridiculed. If I said I had quarter horses, here would come the thing on them being bleed. If I said I had Walking Horses, they would be sored no matter if it was a flat shod horse.

            As for bands on a horse, there is no harm in them. I know many horses that wear them. I have never seen where it hurts them. Some horses just have such poor feet that they can't even wear a shoe without pads. I know of a couple of Hackneys that have this problem. Unless a band is setting right on the coronet band or close to it, there is no problem. And those pics used for samples, are a bad example. But it does seem as he has thrown his shoes fromt he looks of the reconstruction work that has been done. What makes it look so bad is all the epoxy.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Luvinfoofy:

              Actually, we can't do whatever we want with our horses - abuse is illegal. I think the argument here is whether this is boarderline abusive or not.
              It is obviously not abusive, unless you consider jumping abusive. How many horses do you know would naturally be jumping such high fences all the time by themselves, a few absolutely would be...but not as many as show on the jumping circuit. Jumpers are trained to do their job, just like park horses; and they both have nice lives. Park horses are not out showing every weekend; they show about once or twice a month (in probably 2 classes a show) and they are taken care of the best.

              This discussion was not about abuse, it was about Morgans legalizing bands. It was not about Saddlebreds or Chantilly Lace, it was about bands; the additional comments are not appropriate or relevant to the discussion.

              Steve
              Steve

              Comment


              • #47
                Wanted to add in one more thing:

                I understand that some people are unsure about what one rule change might do for other rules, but I do think that bands and clips put on properly, do help a horse and do not hurt them at all. I use them and they work especially well when I am trail riding. If my horse steps in mud (icky red clay in my area) it keeps the mud from suctioning off the shoe.
                Julie
                www.equusvilla.blogspot.com
                www.ridingaside.blogspot.com
                www.miniaturecheviot.blogspot.com

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Steve:
                  It is obviously not abusive, unless you consider jumping abusive. How many horses do you know would naturally be jumping such high fences all the time by themselves, a few absolutely would be...but not as many as show on the jumping circuit. Jumpers are trained to do their job, just like park horses; and they both have nice lives. Park horses are not out showing every weekend; they show about once or twice a month (in probably 2 classes a show) and they are taken care of the best.

                  This discussion was not about abuse, it was about Morgans legalizing bands. It was not about Saddlebreds or Chantilly Lace, it was about bands; the additional comments are not appropriate or relevant to the discussion.

                  Steve
                  If you go back and read the posts prior to mine, you will see that this was -becoming- a discussion about whether "extreme shoeing" is abusive or not.

                  I never said if I thought it was abusive or not, because I am staying out of that. I do not doubt that there are plenty of gaited horses with wonderful lives.

                  However, I do not think that you can use jumping as a comparison as far as abuse goes because you can't muscle a horse over a 4' fence. The exaggerated gait that you see in these breeds is caused by a reaction. Reaction to shoeing, training, and sometimes (unfortunately) even pain. When jumping, it isn't a jerk reaction unless you are poling or using something to scare the horse over the fence.

                  Honestly, if any of my horses decide that they aren't going to jump a fence - there isn't any way in hell I'm going to make them. Sure, we can have a very heated *discussion* about it, and in the end I usually win.. but if they aren't going to do it, they won't.

                  As in all breeds, if a horse doesn't truly enjoy its job, it will be hard for it to reach the top levels. In no way shape or form am I bashing Morgans, TWHs or Saddlebreds, I just took offense to the comment of dressage and jumping riders being snotty - I don't feel that kind of behavior is any different than when someone starts throwing a fit about gaited breeds.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    They are allowing bands but not changing the length/weight limit, is that correct? Then what is the problem? The change is obviously to help those horses that have weak hooves or clip themselves a lot.

                    As far as the Arab change - They are certainly NOT allowing the heavy packages, either - they've changed the way they measure from weight to size of shoe/length of foot.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Here is what I don't understand, you don't mind people breed bashing (ie: Two Simple calling gaited breeds seething idiot demons, and freak shows) but I say something about people being snotty, and you get all offended. That is what makes no sense to me.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Immortality:
                        Here is what I don't understand, you don't mind people breed bashing (ie: Two Simple calling gaited breeds seething idiot demons, and freak shows) but I say something about people being snotty, and you get all offended. That is what makes no sense to me.
                        I never said that I didn't mind people breed bashing. You can go ahead and defend your breeds (I'm sure as heck not going to, because I know that the people who breed and train these horses know more about them than I do..), and I'll go ahead and defend my riding style.

                        When you called dressage riders and jumpers snotty, I defended them because *I* am one. If you want to defend your favorite breeds.. go for it, but do not make personal attacks on people who are not at all involved. "Snottiness" in the horse world is spread out pretty evenly throughout all types of riding, with the exception of eventers.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          You don't think it's personal when people insinuate that all saddle seat riders abuse their horses because of the stupid things that some do? Wouldn't anyone take it personal if someone accused you of abusing the animal you love and care for?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by khorsem:
                            You don't think it's personal when people insinuate that all saddle seat riders abuse their horses because of the stupid things that some do? Wouldn't anyone take it personal if someone accused you of abusing the animal you love and care for?
                            Hey, I never said it wasn't personal. READ what I said.. I'm leaving it up to the people who breed, own and show these horses to defend them. I'm defending my type of riding, now you go and defend yours.. but DO NOT bring me into it.

                            Edited to add: If anyone wants to argue with me about it, please start a PT. I'm actually kind of curious as to others opinions on the use of bands and this is taking over the thread.

                            SORRY to the OP(hitchinmygetalong)!

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Sorry, didn't intend to bring you into it... The point is, that I don't think anyone should have to defend their discipline - They all have their place, and their own methods. Do I see things in other disciplines that I don't agree with? Do I see things in my own discipline that I don't agree with? Absolutely - But I can't attribute what "some" do that is wrong as something wrong with that whole breed/discipline - it's silly.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Yes!! Which is why I didn't like it when Immortality said that people who do dressage and jump are snotty. I wasn't jumping on you or the gaited breeds, just defending those of us that don't fall under that generalization.

                                Comment


                                • #56

                                  Agreed.
                                  And I certainly don't think dressage people are snobs. (I mean, I'm sure some are, but I've met plenty of snobs everywhere) I kind of thought that the person who posted that comment was trying to hit home as to what ground others were treading on by bashing ss horses. I really don't think that it was meant to personally offend anyone. And if it was, then screw em - no one deserves to be sterotyped like that.

                                  And just to clarify, not all saddle seat breeds are gaited and not all gaited horses are saddle seat. The gaited saddle seat breeds are TWH, some Saddlebreds, some NSH.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by fourmares:
                                    Those bands sure are ugly. I don't think I'd want to show in them.
                                    You would hardly see the bands - the hoof black goes right over it and over the shoe and anything else and all just looks like hoof. You would have to be close up to see them in a show.

                                    Okay, so back to the topic. If we are just talking about bands going on to keep shoes on - the same shoes they are using now - what is so bad about that? Some horses need help. Tearing off huge chunks of hoof wall would be more damaging than the bands.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Ugg, Those feet are atrocious!
                                      Tara


                                      A horse already knows how to be a horse;
                                      The rider has to learn how to become a rider.
                                      A horse without a rider is still a horse;
                                      A rider without a horse is no longer a rider.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Lazy Palomino Hunter:
                                        Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

                                        check out the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!

                                        Oh man, that makes me absolutly sick,
                                        Tara


                                        A horse already knows how to be a horse;
                                        The rider has to learn how to become a rider.
                                        A horse without a rider is still a horse;
                                        A rider without a horse is no longer a rider.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          This conversation can go on 4 everrrrrrrrrrrrr. It has been talked about numerous times on this website. Are there any moderators on here. MIght as well add on to the same 35 page topic.

                                          Comment

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