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Morgan Assoc. approves use of bands/turnbuckles UPDATE page 12

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  • #21
    The Board of Directors of the Morgan Horse Association has approved the use of bands and turnbuckles for any horse other than a weanling or a yearling.
    Bummer.
    They're such nice little horses when they're not artificially messed with.
    If someone wants a Saddlebred, why don't they just get a Saddlebred?
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

    Comment


    • #22
      I got out of Morgans after the whole Rhythem Nation debacle. If it takes something other than a Morgan to win at the World's, then something is sadly wrong. Saddlebreds and Hackneys have been bred into the breed on the sly for years, with only a handful getting caught. If I ever owned another Morgan, it would be Lippitt bred.

      Unfortunately, Park horses command the most $$$$, hence the new weighted shoes.

      This is why I bought a haflinger, but guess what? The powers that be are mucking that breed up too! If I wanted a taller, long backed Arab, I would have bought one!
      One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well. - Virginia Woolf

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      • #23
        I don't see a problem with bands per se, but I do see a problem with the shoes! God... Then again this has been discussed ad nauseum....
        -Grace

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Aptor Hours:

          FYI those bands are not for soring they are just like you stated to help prevent the loss of a shoe. That is all.
          No, I agree, I guess that was what I was trying to say - the bands are not evil. Well, unless you are pressure banding.

          What does worry me is that allowing the bands will open the door for the use of bigger packages on their feet. I'm not at all familiar with AMHA rules, but I suppose there are shoe sizes and measurements in their rule books, right? Is everyone trying to max out on shoe/package size? Do Morgans have the "commissioned circuit" as the big money maker like it is(was) in padded TWH.

          Comment


          • #25
            Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

            check out the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!

            Comment


            • #26
              Morgans do have strict shoeing requirements as well as length requirements that vary by division. I do not believe that the board of directors is trying to allow "bigger packages" but that they are trying to help more horses show at the top of their game. Morgans compete on their own circuit and have done so without bands for a very long time, the addition of bands will not transform the breed or its performance. The main objective in legalizing bands is that shoes will not fall off and horses will have healthier feet. If you look at magazines alike the Morgan Connection you can see that Morgans can perform very well without bands. Bands will allow horses to show even when the footing is not ideal (as in mud after a rain storm at an only outside show) and will prevent injuries.

              Steve
              Steve

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              • #27
                Hey Lazy Pally Hunter,

                You should see them in person. WOW. O.o

                Most of that movement is trained in and they will generally do it without the pads. The pads just add the extra oomph wanted in the show ring.

                I know many will not agree but when you see these big boys in person many actually enjoy their job. Yes, it is true that many don't and they need to find another job. These horses have been bred for this(same as some bred for trail, light shod..etc.)

                I went to the Celebration this year and loved every second of it!

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                • #28
                  I must say, that is an AWFUL example of typical saddleseat shoeing jobs. I believe what is being shown in the photos is a REPAIR job to a horse who lost most of its hoof. You can see a big section of acrylic on the left hoof - which would explain why the bands are needed. Maybe this particular horse will have them removed when his hoof grows back? Without knowing what these are photos OF (some frame of reference) it's hard to comment accurately.

                  I have mixed feelings on this. I am a longtime ASB owner and saddleseat exhibitor, and also showed Morgans for awhile. If I didn't have an ASB I'd have a Morgan - they're wonderful horses. But, I like the fact that there are shoeing limits in the breed. In fact, I'm one of the advocates for shoeing limits in certain divisions of the ASB show ring.

                  However, I can see how allowing bands can be beneficial to the horse, AS LONG AS OTHER SHOEING REGULATIONS ARE NOT CHANGED. If they keep the same restrictions on length and weight, bands can do nothing but help a horse who would already be wearing that package. They'll just help him keep it on better, eliminating the possibility of injuries and losing shoes.

                  However, if you have a horse who does not NEED the extra package, and also cannot keep it on because of shelly hooves or an overreaching problem, you may be seeing them in a bigger package because now the option of banding is available and the owners/trainers will be trying to maximize their gait.

                  I don't quite know what side of the fence to sit on...I love the Morgan as it is and would hate to see them continue their slide into "ASB clones". Although, the truely talented ASBs, and Morgans, don't need much shoe and pad to do what they do best...

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Steve:
                    The main objective in legalizing bands is that shoes will not fall off and horses will have healthier feet.
                    Newsflash: for the vast majoirty of Morgans, if the shoes *were* off, the feet would be healthier
                    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I'm just curious. The horse in the pictures, is it club footed or does long term use of those bands cause the hoof to warp?

                      Those bands sure are ugly. I don't think I'd want to show in them. But I can see where they might be a necessary evil.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Those feet are one hell of a mess.
                        LESS HARD WORK, MORE FINE DINING!™
                        complicate, obfuscate, prevaricate.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Originally posted by Steve:
                          The main objective in legalizing bands is that shoes will not fall off and horses will have healthier feet. If you look at magazines alike the <snip> Bands will allow horses to show even when the footing is not ideal (as in mud after a rain storm at an only outside show) and will prevent injuries.

                          Steve
                          Steve, on the surface this looks like a very valid argument for the use of bands. And I'm CERTAIN this is the reasoning behind the vote. What makes me wonder is why, when the topic was put to a vote in 2004, was it voted down SOUNDLY (10 against to 3 for) yet this year the vote was reversed (5 against to 11 for)?

                          What exactly happened over the year to change all those minds?

                          And the voices I am hearing that are so vehemently opposed to this rule change are coming from Morgan folk who have been around for years (as in decades) and have seen the insidious little changes that are allowing even the Pleasure classes to look like a Saddlebred Stakes class.
                          "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Fast Alice:
                            I got out of Morgans after the whole Rhythem Nation debacle.
                            Unfortunately, Park horses command the most $$$$, hence the new weighted shoes.
                            Alice, remind us, what was the Rhythm Nation debacle? Was that the ASB stallion that bred Morgans and the offspring were papered as purebred?
                            As for Park horses... it's ironic because there are so few of them, and their trainers are changing a whole breed. Hunter and Western Pleasure brings in the bucks at Morgan shows! Not Park!
                            I haven't read the rule change... will any Morgan be able to use bands? English Pleasure? Carriage?

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I have a problem with the premise that this will allow the horses to be"at the top of their game" because they aren't pulling off the platform shoes that help them be at the top of their game. It's kind of like allowing hunters to use a bunch of bute because it keeps the horses who are lunged for two hours sound. It seems unfair to the person who's horse moves correctly with minimum shoeing to have to compete with a horse shoed so unnaturally as to require rather unsightly steel bands to hold the shoes on.
                              The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
                                They now take the rules change proposal to the USEF.
                                Those of you familiar with USEF: Who can we contact at USEF in order to try and stop this rule change?
                                I've always been surprised that the breeds have to present their rule changes to USEF for approval. They all have their own organization and members, I figured they'd just TELL the USEF their own rules have been changed. I would assume only the FEI disciplines in the USEF book would have to get approval.

                                As for rule changes, you'd have to start a campaign to kill the rule change and make sure there's a few thousand member-voters at the USEF convention to vote down the rule. Good luck.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by buryinghill1:
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fast Alice:
                                  I got out of Morgans after the whole Rhythem Nation debacle.
                                  Unfortunately, Park horses command the most $$$$, hence the new weighted shoes.
                                  Alice, remind us, what was the Rhythm Nation debacle? Was that the ASB stallion that bred Morgans and the offspring were papered as purebred?
                                  As for Park horses... it's ironic because there are so few of them, and their trainers are changing a whole breed. Hunter and Western Pleasure brings in the bucks at Morgan shows! Not Park!
                                  I haven't read the rule change... will any Morgan be able to use bands? English Pleasure? Carriage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Here's the gist of it. The trainer's name escapes me now, butan American saddlebred stallion was registered fraudulently as a morgan stallion. This horse later went on to breed many mares, and his babies sold for top dollars. When it came to light about his true breeding, the AMHA pulled his papers along with those of his offspring. The owners of the offspring now had unregistered crossbreds, instead of top dollar morgan babies. They tried to sue the AMHA to reinstate their horses as purebreds, but ultimately lost.

                                  Years before in the late 1980's, Maxine Snow did the same thing. She tried to get around the old blood typing by buying an old morgan mare who was exempt from the rule. She later used a saddlebred mare's blood for registry purposes and bred lots of half breeds which she sold as purebred. She was also caught and the all the offsprings papers were pulled.

                                  But these are just the ones that have got caught. There are many unproven rumors about many top stallions going back to the 1960's as being part, or mostly saddlebred. That's why the breed's look has changed so dramatically in the past thirty years. The Lippitt Morgan breeders pride themselves on keeping only pure Morgan blood in their stock. That's why a chunky little Lippitt doesn't even look related to it's park saddle brothers.

                                  What certain people will do for the love of money....
                                  One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well. - Virginia Woolf

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Ditto...it literally made my stomach turn to watch it...it's cruelty plain and simple. and before someone here jumps me for saying that look up the workd cruel it fits!

                                    Originally posted by Two Simple:
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lazy Palomino Hunter:
                                    Although this is walking horses, I think the "big shoe" theory applies...

                                    check out the CANTER on the horses with the big shoes!! They look so scary!
                                    What a *&%^$#@ freak show. That's all it is. I have limited, albeit disgusting experience with padded up horses. The gaits are a b*&ch to ride and the horses I worked with were seething idiot demons, I assume because they were uncomforable in pain. Just a freak show. I loathe the hateful devils that pad horses up like this.

                                    If anyone can do so PLEASE check out the canter in the "performance horse" section of the website she posted here. It's enough to make you puke. I've ridden it and after I got over the shock and the tears, I vowed to never look to it again. This just makes my gutts turn inside out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                    Any man who can render himself unconscious with a pretzel, isn't smart enough to lead the Free World

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I have to say that that video made me sick. I have never seen a saddlebred, which is the horse with the most natural motion canter like that. That did look painful. OUCH. As for the picture of the feet, they just looked a little messy. Many horses will feel more comfortable with pads on. If you ever felt a shoe like that its not as heavy as it looks. This is a horse we are talking about. I know that I will pad my horse up for the shoe season and probably use a toe clip. I would most definately take them off if a problem arises, but if she is comfortable then the more motion the better. I am ready to get told off now.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        We have a relatively small charity horse show here every October and the saddlebred folks come out in force. Every year there are the same 'big lick' horses to wow the crowd (but not me) and one lonesome gentleman who shows his saddlebreds 'natural'. Despite the fact that his horses are groomed to a glossy finish and perform flawlessly, ridden and driven, HE HAS NEVER PLACED in a class.

                                        I think until the JUDGES have a lot to answer for here.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Why is it so hard for people to keep saddlebreds and walking horses separate?

                                          Kat the Horse: Big Lick refers to walking horses only. Please don't lump everyone together.

                                          And, I have to agree... those feet were not ideal-rather dishy looking... definitely a repair job.

                                          Typically, the better the horse (and the better the training-and, of course, the better the rider) the less you need on the feet. I think most saddlebred (and MORGAN) people will agree - Motion comes from natural ability and collection.

                                          I use pads and weights on my horses feet... mostly to enhance take off and landing. I'm more in favor in adding a lead weight (4-8oz)) to a foot at a horse show than growing enormous feet and putting heavy shoes on.

                                          I've seen plenty of horses show with incredibly long feet... and most of the time, in my opinion, it makes them look rather "floppy" going. I prefer a more crisp and hesitant way of going.

                                          But some people dont know any better... some poeple are stupid... and some people were taught wrong.

                                          As far as bands go... I can understand using them on a horse with very bad feet. But for the most part they are unecessary.


                                          And I too agree that Morgans are (and have been) headed down the wrong path. I LOVE the older type heavier morgan... but, in my opinion, the newer type IS starting to look a little too much like a saddlebred (and there are one or two other breeds out there doing the same....)
                                          ~ British Men Appreciation Clique ~

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