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Morgan Assoc. approves use of bands/turnbuckles UPDATE page 12

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  • Originally posted by Amwrider:
    Deuce, love your webshot photos. By any chance is your horse by Pennys Superior Stonewall? (looks a lot like my PSS boy) One of the photos also reminds me of Supreme Heir or Radiant Sultan.

    The doggie on the beach photo is great!
    Why thank you! I LOOOVE my horse and wish I had a dozen just like him.

    Not PSS, He is Mountain Highland Memories on top/ Courageous Admiral on the bottom. Not even a drop of Sultan in him. I sure do wish he were a mare!

    My little JRT really had a great day at the beach! Slept for about 12 hours after that I think!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Deuce:
      And then one day man discovered steroids and injected them into yearlings and 2 year olds to build muscle more quickly so that these young horses could run faster, thus causing these young animals to often be crippled and damaged well beyond their years. And he discovered that milk shaking caused the horses to tire less quickly, and he did so, regardless of the fact that said horses would possibly die of a heart attack or even possibly drown if someone ignorant inserted the tube. Who did this benefit? Man.

      And then one day man discovered that horse could jump 6’ and forced horse to do it over and over again, and if horse failed he whacked it in the shins with a pipe. All in order to win a blue ribbon. Who did this benefit? Man.

      And then one day man discovered that by pulling firmly on the reins and spurring their horses viciously in the sides continuously that he could achieve immense collection to the point of trotting or cantering in place (very unnatural), despite the obvious wear and tear on said horses hindquarters and joints, not to mention the fact that a vice was necessary to hold said horses aching jaw closed so that hors could not fight back. Man kept telling himself that this was the only correct form of training. Who did this benefit? Man.

      Your point?

      polling and "milkshaking" have been banned yes?

      I believe that is her point.

      we have a horse at the barn who is a former victim of polling. If somebody is even standing close to a jump while this horse is working he will refuse flat out until that person moves.

      Comment


      • ... you don't see me poking my nose over into the Dressage forum and commenting on the Rollkur thread, I don't show dressage, I never plan to show dressage, I don't agree with everything involved in dressage....buy I do not go over there and bitch, gripe and holler at folks and I certainly do not go writing all the various federations telling them to outlaw rollkur, gadget cavessons, and spurs.

        I do not tell the federations that they have too many silly little letters around their arena and that if the purpose of dressage is to practice and exhibit fine training skills whips and spurs would not be needed. Puhleeze....

        If I was an ice skater, I would not go complaining to the hockey league that their skates are wrong....that is what this is tantamount to.
        Well, perhaps you SHOULD go poking your nose into other disciplines.

        These shoes are inherently cruel, and cause physical discomfort and long term damage to these animals. One does not have to ride a saddlebred to CLEARLY see the practices used are tantamount to TORTURE. They are CRUEL and INHUMANE. It is well documented that these shoes cause premature arthritis in the shoulders and leg joints, strains the tendons, and more. They should be outlawed, but there are too many fu@#ing morons in the saddlebred and morgan industry who really don't give a sh!t about the horses, only the ribbons. And THAT is sick, in ANY discipline.

        As for the ice skate comment, that is just beyond retarded. The biggest difference between the horse and the ice skater is the horse doesn't have any fu@#ing choice in this matter.
        ~*~Tally Hoooooooo!~*~

        Comment


        • [/quote]I know you see that bands as a negative, where as I see it as a preventative measure to protect a horses foot in the event that the horse has poor feet/working in poor footing (or, even a bad rider who can’t keep their horse together) and the shoe comes loose. [/quote]

          The bands would be a moot point if you didn't make your horses wear retarded looking torture devices, and let them wear regular keg shoes, or go barefoot.

          For all of you who think these shoes are not curel or that there is nothing wrong with them, I challenge you to this:

          Get yourself a pair of 5.75" platform shoes, and wear them for 30 days straight. That would be 720 straight hours. ANd this includes while you sleep. You cannot take these shoes off for any reason.

          Tell me how YOU feel after those 30 days.

          I tripe Dog Dare you.

          Anyone? Bueller??

          I thought not. Why, Oh because they'll make your legs and feet hurt.

          But it's ok to do this to an animal...

          Y'all are sick.
          ~*~Tally Hoooooooo!~*~

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ride2hounds:
            It is well documented that these shoes cause premature arthritis in the shoulders and leg joints, strains the tendons, and more.
            OK, I'll bite, show me where it is documented.

            You do state that it is WELL documented.

            Give me the research sites that document this.

            If it is so well documented, why didn't the AAEP and the AFA state so in their letters to the USEF?

            No one in the morgan or saddlebred world puts 5 inches of anything on the bottom of a horse's foot. Your ignorance is showing.

            Arthritic at an early age....I invite you to come over and take a gallop on my 22 YEAR OLD former 3 gaited horse....how about my niece winning the REGIONAL EQUITATION CHAMPIONSHIP last year on a 21 year old morgan....

            I would guesstimate that our horses break down in smaller percentages than jumpers. No I cannot document it, nor do I make fictitious claims that there is documentation to support it, this is just my opinion (having ridden on both sides of the fence so to speak).
            Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
            Bernard M. Baruch

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ride2hounds:

              Get yourself a pair of 5.75" platform shoes, and wear them for 30 days straight. That would be 720 straight hours. ANd this includes while you sleep. You cannot take these shoes off for any reason.

              Tell me how YOU feel after those 30 days.

              I tripe Dog Dare you.

              Anyone? Bueller??

              I thought not. Why, Oh because they'll make your legs and feet hurt.

              But it's ok to do this to an animal...

              Y'all are sick.
              Umm...horses cannot take keg shoes off either. Why don't you put on a pair of Keds for 30 days and not take them off at all, even when you sleep. Go running in them, on hard ground, walk the mall,...Your feet would ache too after 30 days with no cushining or support.
              Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
              Bernard M. Baruch

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                Since we are busy making analogies between human and horse comfort perceptions, may I add that given a choice (and thank heavens I have a choice - horses don't) I would much rather wander around in Keds than platforms.
                "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  Posted by Deuce:
                  Provided the weight and length restrictions are not altered, I don’t really see the harm (though, I agree that 5.75“ seems rather excessive).
                  This may be where the 5.75" came from. I know that is 5.75" from ground to coronary band, perhaps ride2hounds didn't realize it.

                  And to clarify something: There are no weight limits in a number of Morgan divisions, including (but not limited to) Park, reining, and eventing.
                  "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." ~ Jack Layton

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Little Indian (Brindaro---//):

                    polling and "milkshaking" have been banned yes?

                    I believe that is her point.

                    we have a horse at the barn who is a former victim of polling. If somebody is even standing close to a jump while this horse is working he will refuse flat out until that person moves.
                    They sure have. Yet it still happens every single day.

                    My point is that there are people in EVERY discipline that DON'T care about the welfare of their horses and go way too far. And there are others that do.

                    It's the same with the saddle seat breeds. I'm sure there are plenty of saddlebred and morgan trainers that WILL use ANY means to win a blue ribbon. I make a conscious effort to not associate with those people and have thus far been quite successful in finding people who really do love their horses and wouldn't do anything to cause them any physical or mental pain.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ride2hounds:
                      I know you see that bands as a negative, where as I see it as a preventative measure to protect a horses foot in the event that the horse has poor feet/working in poor footing (or, even a bad rider who can’t keep their horse together) and the shoe comes loose. [/quote]

                      The bands would be a moot point if you didn't make your horses wear retarded looking torture devices, and let them wear regular keg shoes, or go barefoot.

                      For all of you who think these shoes are not curel or that there is nothing wrong with them, I challenge you to this:

                      Get yourself a pair of 5.75" platform shoes, and wear them for 30 days straight. That would be 720 straight hours. ANd this includes while you sleep. You cannot take these shoes off for any reason.

                      Tell me how YOU feel after those 30 days.

                      I tripe Dog Dare you.

                      Anyone? Bueller??

                      I thought not. Why, Oh because they'll make your legs and feet hurt.

                      But it's ok to do this to an animal...

                      Y'all are sick.[/QUOTE]

                      I almost didn't want to bring myself down to your level and respond to this. I'll make an exception this one time.

                      First of all, I'm Pretty sure I said that I thought 5.75" was excessive. Let me check.

                      Yup, that is exactly what I said.

                      Secondly, you don't know me, and your misconception that I am cruel is way off mark. In fact most people would tell you that I am a little excessive in the care of my horse. My horse is healthy and happy and well adjusted, thank you. He talks to me everytime he sees me and will run at full speed from one end of the pasture to the other if he sees me coming. If I was cruel to him, would that happen?

                      Ooohhh... I grow his feet to 3.75" when show season is around (oh, wait, I dont' grow his feet that long, they are that long with his keg shoes on) and stick a half inch wedge pad on him and put a shoe on him that weighs 8 Oz more than the kegs he has on now. Once or twice a week I even work him in weighted bell boots to help build front end muscle, for shame, for shame.

                      Did you know that an unhappy, uncomfortable horse will not perform very well?

                      I'm sorry that you obviously haven't had any first hand experience with saddlebreds and saddle seat. Maybe you should seek it out so that you can then voice a VALID opinion of it, one way or another.

                      I too would like to see this documentation that saddlebreds and morgans are prematurely crippled. Unfortunately, it doesn't exsist. My old horse who was shown both 5 and 3 gaited until he was 18 years old died at 32 and was sound until he was about 26 after slipping and falling in the mud and seriously damaging his right hind.

                      You don't like saddle seat. I get it. Honestly. I don't expect to change your mind. I have no interest in fox hunting. Never will. But I'm certainly not going to go off on a tangent attacking something I know very little about.

                      Oh, and thank you for telling me that I am sick and calling my horse retarded looking. Really shows how mature you are.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hitchinmygetalong:
                        Posted by Deuce:
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Provided the weight and length restrictions are not altered, I don’t really see the harm (though, I agree that 5.75“ seems rather excessive).
                        This may be where the 5.75" came from. I know that is 5.75" from ground to coronary band, perhaps ride2hounds didn't realize it.

                        And to clarify something: There are no weight limits in a number of Morgan divisions, including (but not limited to) Park, reining, and eventing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        I was not aware that there are no weight limits in some divisions. Maybe someone should seek getting limits set? It would, in my opinion (and probably in opinion of everyone on this board), be a very positive step for Morgans, and I'd happily put my name on the petition right next to yours.

                        Would for saddlebreds too, if they would adopt such limitations. I'd be all for it. More likely to start with the Morgans though.

                        I HAVE seen both morgans and saddlebreds carrying too much foot and too much weight. You can SEE when a horse is being pushed too far and it shows both in their movement and expression. The motion becomes labory and ugly and the horse has an overall look of discomfort. It happens, I wish it wouldn't!! And if I HAVE told people that I thought they were going overboard (and really pissed some people off in the process).

                        And I for one will not overload a horse lengthwise or weightwise. And there ARE people who feel the exact same way that I do.

                        Really, it isn't all bad. There are good people out there. Lots of them!

                        Unfortunately its the bad that people remember.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Deuce:
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Little Indian (Brindaro---//):

                          polling and "milkshaking" have been banned yes?

                          I believe that is her point.

                          we have a horse at the barn who is a former victim of polling. If somebody is even standing close to a jump while this horse is working he will refuse flat out until that person moves.
                          They sure have. Yet it still happens every single day.

                          My point is that there are people in EVERY discipline that DON'T care about the welfare of their horses and go way too far. And there are others that do.

                          It's the same with the saddle seat breeds. I'm sure there are plenty of saddlebred and morgan trainers that WILL use ANY means to win a blue ribbon. I make a conscious effort to not associate with those people and have thus far been quite successful in finding people who really do love their horses and wouldn't do anything to cause them any physical or mental pain. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          From my own personal association with a (very recent...as of like two months ago) ex Morgan park horse stallion(who I believe is 11 and now being turned Western Pleasure...because that is how he moves NATURALLY...) he is MUCH happier and seems a TON less cranky than with the pads and the buckles on him. He was bought by an Ammy who is thrilled with him and the trainer working with him has apparently put out three world champion Western Pleasure morgan horses...and he has apparently put out each of these world champions with (I believe...I could be wrong) ex park horses. Doesn't that say something right there? That these horses can SO EASILY be turned into a nice western horse just by taking off the huge shoes off of their feet? correct me if I'm wrong...please.

                          Comment


                          • Well, you aren't going to get any disagreements from me.

                            If the horse is more suited as a WP horse than park then of COURSE he's going to be less cranky. But I bet if you put him in a full bridle (and have someone on him who can use it correctly) and take him out of the jog and into an english trot he will still show the talent to be a park horse. Not that I think he SHOULD be since he's so suited to WP. I'm not talking about forcing a horse into a division he's not suited for, no horse would be happy doing that.

                            I'm glad you friend found him and turned him WP, since that sounds like the job he was made for.

                            The number of horses suited to performance is much lower than the number suited to pleasure. That's why those classes are always smaller.

                            My horse is a performance horse, always has been. I would have LOVED to have turned him into a pleasure horse as I think he would have been quite a star (where as he was just an okay performance horse - but, in my opinion, the most fun). Mentally, he's not suited for pleasure, he's a bit on an adrenaline junkie and thinks that faster is better. I've been just poking around on him and trail riding for the past year. He hates it. My usually bright and agreeable horse goes out there and puts his ears back and drops his head on a trail. It's boring. If I take him for a gallop in the field across the street? Ears up, lets go, this is great kind of attitude.

                            So, this year, with no plans to show, I'm going to see how he likes jumping. Much more exciting and he's mentally more suited for that kind of work than walking down the trails.

                            It all depends on the individual. If a horse isn't suited to park it I absolutely agree it should not be a park horse! But some horses are!

                            Comment


                            • Tell me, Deuce, what would you do with a Morgan that is "suited to park" with natural action that makes him look silly as a western pleasure or cutting horse (he has the ability & "cow sense" to work cattle, it's just that he looks SILLY doing it with his high--barefoot--action)...but without added weight/shoes/pads he won't go anywhere in park. Sure, if he was shod up he'd be right in there with the best of the park horses, but barefoot/plain shod he's just not going to be what the judge is going to pin. (In comparison, if you pull the shoes off certain of the winning park horses....you have horses that can do western pleasure without looking silly...I've seen it!)

                              Sooo, you have a "suited to western" horse that is shod up & wins in park...and yet many argue that heavy shoes don't "make" action? of course not.

                              To whomever said a dressage rider has no business sticking her nose into saddle seat rules--wrong. Any and all Morgan owners have the right to offer opinions on/vote on/lobby against any & all proposed rule changes. Changes to one sector of the breed ultimately, in time, affects the breed as a whole, and all members are allowed a voice on all issues. Unfortunately some voices just aren't big enough to be heard.

                              Comment


                              • Well, Annetta, I would take him home and try dressage. Or show in the hunter pleasure division (and don’t tell me they don’t like the HP Morgans to have motion, the only difference between them and the saddle seat pleasure Morgans is a lower head set). Or show him English Pleasure flat shod and show up the padded pleasure horses. Or show him in either WP or Park shod flat, not care that he looks silly, and just go out there to have a good time. There are lots of divisions for lots of different types of horses.

                                Nope, shoes DON”T make the motion. Look at my previous post. I believe that when trotting English the WP horse in question would trot like an English horse. The shoes and pads probably just enhanced it. Doesn’t mean he couldn’t’ move like a WP horse. Slow some horses down and all the animation goes away. It depends on the individual. I didn’t even say it was right to force him into Park if it made him unhappy.

                                Let me give you two examples of horses that I’ve owned.

                                The first was a 4 year old mare that I was hoping would be a fine harness horse. She had a pretty way of going shod flat and worked well in a cart. We were taking our time and not asking too much of her. So, after a few months I put a lightly weighted shoe on her. I didn’t like it. It changed her motion for the worse even though the shoes weren‘t much of anything and she only had a thin flat pad on. I gave it six weeks, pulled the shoes and shod her flat again. I worked her towards Country Pleasure driving and sold her to someone who, unlike me, wanted a Country pleasure driving horse. I was disappointed that I didn’t get a fine harness horse out of her. I survived and I don’t regret not trying to force the issue with her. This was 6 or 7 years ago and that mare is STILL showing in CP driving today, and rarely finishes lower than third.

                                My next example is my current horse. I mentioned earlier that he isn’t suited towards pleasure. He doesn’t have the temperament for it. If he did he probably would have been one of the very best 5-gaited pleasure horses in the country. I could have forced him. I could have worked him in draw reins consistently and really drilled him towards “slow”. I would have had a World’s Championship quality pleasure horse who was anxiety filled, unhappy, and probably not a whole lot of fun.

                                During the time I showed him I never once won a class. I was showing in probably what was the toughest circuit in the country at the time, and my 4 figure horse couldn’t cut it with the 6 figure horses, horses who had their champion status, horses with WGC and RWC in front of their names who went back to their BNT barns. EVERY time I went to a horse show I KNEW I was not going to win. Yet still I showed him performance. Why?

                                Well…

                                Go to my web shots and look at the picture of us showing. Do you see my very poor leg position? The fact that I’m just about falling off the back of the saddle? How about the fact that I am LAUGHING? I had, just a few seconds before that photo was taken, come very close to knowing the footing in the ring first hand. I almost fell off in that class THREE times as he would swell up and try and scoot out from under me. We blew the canter second direction, broke at the rack the first, and didn’t do a lick of walking the whole class. Technically, it was the WORST class he and I ever had together, and probably the most fun that I’ve ever had at a horse show because the rest of the time he was absolutely on, loving every minute of it, and getting bigger and better with each and every step. Hell, he even snorted at the crowd in the line up.

                                I left that class, of only six horses, with fifth place, and only because the sixth horse was having an even worse time of it and asked to be excused. So basically, I was dead last. I bet I was smiling bigger than anyone else though!

                                During the next four days 3 people (two trainers and one person who owned the previous years world’s championship junior fine harness horse) told me my horse had never looked so good. Another girl of about 14 that I’ve never met came up to me and told me that she really enjoyed watching him show, she wanted a horse just like him one day, and asked if could she feed him a carrot. Another person said we should have won anyway (though I disagreed). And one VERY big name trainer asked how much I’d take for him (to which I replied, he is not for sale.) All of which, after that class, was just the icing on the cake.

                                I do not regret that I didn’t turn him Into a pleasure horse just so I could win a blue ribbon and two years later, despite the fact that I typically don’t keep my ribbons, I still have that awful baby pink ribbon hanging on my wall right next to that picture.

                                So take your flat shod Morgans and show them HOWEVER you like. If you don’t want to pad them up DON’T. If you’re worried that you won’t be competitive than that is YOUR problem and not the system. Blue ribbons aren’t the be all and end all of horse ownership. Don’t’ worry about looking silly, or out of place and be a WHOLE lot more concerned with having fun.

                                And that’s about all I have to say on the entire issue because it is like talking to a wall.

                                Comment

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