• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

How many losses do you expect your prfessionals to take?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by Lori B View Post
    If you are a horse professional with whom I do business, and I learn that you sell your unrideable schoolies to the KB rather than retiring / euthanizing, you will quickly become someone I used to do business with. How's that for clarification?
    +1

    Any barn worth its salt takes into account the twilight years of their lesson herd, and provide accordingly. That should not be a long-term, life of the animal loss (the horse should bring in more over its lifetime/during working years than you spend maintaining it during its retirement, on average -- obviously sometimes you win, sometimes you lose) but on a year-to-year basis, the books should reflect a loss on that particular animal during its retirement.

    Any barn that did not treat its seniors well is repugnant to me. And any barn that does not take this basic business principle into account when structuring its program is run by an idiot.

    I have no problem with programs that anticipate this and sell their schoolies to good homes when they are in the 12-15 range, with several good riding years left.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #42
      Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
      I expect a smart business person to take a loss on a transaction where doing so will either attract or retain a customer whose lifetime value to the business is positive. In other words, perhaps I'd teach an extra lesson for free, forego a commission on a deal, cut someone a break on shipping or do a bit of extra service (handwalking, trimming, etc) IF it was appropriate to support a good customer from whom I made a profit overall. I'd consider the loss on that single transaction to be an advertising/marketing/PR type expense, for which I would have a budget.

      However, from what I gleaned skimming over the other posts here, it seems that the question is actually related to sending horses to the KB instead of paying to have them euthanized, because of the economic consequences associated with each choice. In that particular situation, I would expect an equine professional to euthanize the horse despite the cost differential, not ONLY because it is the right thing to do, but because there is a business risk associated with being viewed as a person who treats their animals as soulless vehicles who can be discarded for whatever pennies can be wrung from them from the KB. Very few horse lovers - who are the customers necessary to support most equine businesses - will support that practice, and I would imagine the potential chilling effect that decision would have on the business to far outweigh the dollars one would receive from the KB.
      The question touches on many aspects not only one or the other.
      I do find it interesting however to read the answers.
      Originally posted by BigMama1
      Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
      GNU Terry Prachett

      Comment


      • #43
        And high-handed attempts to lead a conversation don't endear the OP to anyone on this thread, IMHO.
        I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
        I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

        Comment


        • #44
          I rather think the loss is but part of the story
          blame is likely the other part.
          as a club treasurer I have seen it all
          and once when one was at the making amends step
          a check shows up out of the blue.
          but that is one for the record book
          more hay, less grain

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
            However, from what I gleaned skimming over the other posts here, it seems that the question is actually related to sending horses to the KB instead of paying to have them euthanized, because of the economic consequences associated with each choice.
            To add to this thought; Is putting Dobbin down really a loss or simply a cost of doing business that should be planned for?
            If we are talking about old schoolies then Dobbin has paid for himself a long time ago by doing lessons. Vet bills associated with lesson horses are part of the business and buying new lesson horses are part of the business.


            When I read the original question I did not realize there was a secret motive behind the asking and I assumed (eek) that it had more to do with the thought that so many boarders have that the BO should provide Dobbin with as much bedding and hay as the HO insists Dobbin needs no matter what, period. In that case I think the BO should not have to take the loss because Dobbin's owner thinks that even though Dobbin beds himself in his hay and is a pig in his stall so he is costing almost twice what the BO budgeted for. Though clearly the BO should have a good contract to cover this.

            Comment


            • #46
              Perhaps you can specify what you are asking? I read your OP and thought it was a very odd and somewhat nonsensical question...Then I read the replies and you seem to be asking about selling horses to a meat buyer? Any legitimate professional wouldn't even ask this - if you are selling horses to kill buyers I wouldn't use your services. Ever. But perhaps that isn't your point? Can you be more specific?

              Is this a general question? Are you a professional? If so, professionals is spelled as such and not prfessionals...which is easy to edit in your thread title.

              Thanks in advance for adding some clarification.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Lori B View Post
                And high-handed attempts to lead a conversation don't endear the OP to anyone on this thread, IMHO.
                I'm just wondering when OP will finally spell out their ~motives~ or whatever. It's over 2 pages of answers now, so what exactly was this about?
                Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

                Comment


                • #48
                  I'm interpreting this more along the lines of a boarder that up and disappears leaving the horse with the boarding stable, or some professional that winds up somehow with a horse they either didn't want or got stuck with. Would they spend the time/money to find a home, euth, or just dump it?

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Reality check time. (Disclaimer: This is not the business I am in).

                    If you really think that riding schools, camps, trail-ride or seasonal pony-ride operators are sweetly "retiring" or euthing their unused or wornout horses, you've spent too much time watching Disney. Where, exactly, do you think all those horses at places like Agawam and New Holland are coming from and, mostly, going to?

                    Most commercial stable operators buy horses to be used in their program, period. There is no sentimentality there! They day they cannot be used and produce a profit, they go back through that revolving door at the sale barn; on a good day, to start the cycle again--on a bad day, when they're no longer sound--well, that's where the KB's get them. Often, they're not even kept through the off season; the operator just buys himself a new string in the Spring. It has been ever thus. Plenty of sweet lies are told to sensitive clients!

                    This is not confined to low-end or marginal operators. Where do you think your fancy "eq" horse went after your lease was over and you were off to college? If no longer up to the job, that's right, he was sold down the food chain too--and by some BNT's you wouldn't believe. "Running them through the sale" is a thinly-veiled ephemism for "making them disappear off the books."

                    If you don't like it, your only recourse is to BUY THEM.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Not everyone treats their oldsters like that, Lady Eboshi. I'm sure they would be richer if they had, but none of my trainers ever sold horses on through feedlots (and yes, I would know). But I never trained at lesson mill-type commercial places, be they small-time lesson barns or BNT eq/junior mills.

                      We always had a geriatric or two or five getting pampered like everyone else -- and that, among many other reasons, is why I still love my former trainers.

                      FWIW, I ran a lesson program for several years. ALL my lesson horses had multi-year retirements and are buried on the farm -- euthed when their times came and not before. I have a senior citizen on my pension plan now.

                      There are plenty of good trainers out there who are in it for the love of the horse. It's up to clients to vote with their feet and support these types of trainers.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I've been fortunate enough to ride and board at barns where sending "useless" horses off to the auction isn't standard practice. Sometimes that has meant euthanizing, and sometimes it's meant a cushy retirement until the horse developed some condition that would be fatal, or the sad cases of putting down an old horse in the fall because you don't think it will be comfortable for another winter.

                        An old school horse has more than earned its keep, including a safe and comfortable end to its life, IMO.

                        I am pleased, actually, to see it becoming more acceptable to put down the "useless" ones. When I was first on COTH, euthing a pasture pet who wasn't in agony was a good way to get bashed to bits. Now, not so much, as people realize that not everyone has the resources to keep horses "forever", and it's certainly better to end their lives rather than to pass the problem down the road to someone else.

                        I know a lot of barns -- maybe even most -- don't do it this way, but I'm lucky enough to have avoided them, with one long-ago exception, a big lesson program where sending useless horses to slaughter was the penultimate thing in a long list of mistreating the lesson horses. But I was 10 or 11 and didn't know any better... I have one photo from that program, of me with my favorite schoolie, an older, skinny, lame TB gelding, and another few schoolies in the background, and the ribs and hips jutting out make me sick, now. As does knowing that at the end of the summer season, anything lame or "used up" like my old schoolie went to the slaughterhouse (though, at the time, there was a local slaughterhouse, so at least the horses didn't end up traveling the auction/KB circuit before they were slaughtered.)
                        Last edited by quietann; Mar. 11, 2013, 05:28 PM.
                        You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                        1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          The barn where I board (lessons, show horses, and boarders) treats its oldtimers with dignity and respect, and lots of care. The BO's son's first pony, a shetland, (son is about to graduate from high school)is living the life of Reilly in his retirement. The retired and aged show horse who can no longer be ridden is a pasture puff, pulled in from the pasture for lunch every day. Lesson horses have all the turnout they could wish for. This is one of the many reasons I love the place I board.
                          What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            OP, why are you such a jack wagon? Nature or nuture? Or a combination of both?

                            I expect your response to be specific to this query or I will have to remind you of the question again.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by betonbill View Post
                              I'm interpreting this more along the lines of a boarder that up and disappears leaving the horse with the boarding stable, or some professional that winds up somehow with a horse they either didn't want or got stuck with. Would they spend the time/money to find a home, euth, or just dump it?
                              On several occasions I have had to put a horse on "scholarship" while the owner was in dire financial or personal straits. This at least covers my bare costs while I try to help the owner work out the situation. One "ancient" stayed on that basis until he died; one healthy retired mare was found a cheaper boarding situation down South; several over the years have been found new owners or new homes.

                              Because these situations were all basically non-productive headaches, I'm more careful today about screening applicants for financial stability. That said, there are always going to be trainwrecks people didn't see coming, and a person who wants to stay in business will help them find positive solutions for their horses. A very extensive list of contacts is key!

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                Originally posted by TequilaMockingbird View Post
                                OP, why are you such a jack wagon? Nature or nuture? Or a combination of both?

                                I expect your response to be specific to this query or I will have to remind you of the question again.
                                .
                                Last edited by Alagirl; Mar. 11, 2013, 03:16 PM. Reason: Personal attacks arn't funny
                                Originally posted by BigMama1
                                Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                                GNU Terry Prachett

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by oliverreed View Post
                                  The barn where I board (lessons, show horses, and boarders) treats its oldtimers with dignity and respect, and lots of care. The BO's son's first pony, a shetland, (son is about to graduate from high school)is living the life of Reilly in his retirement. The retired and aged show horse who can no longer be ridden is a pasture puff, pulled in from the pasture for lunch every day. Lesson horses have all the turnout they could wish for. This is one of the many reasons I love the place I board.
                                  It's good to hear that more lesson stables are setting a good example for private owners by moving in this direction. God knows they will make up in good will anything they might have lost on the feed and care side. All of you who spread the word and patronize these better places are well and truly voting with your checkbooks for a better life for horses!

                                  The only way we'll see the day when there are no more KB's, no more sad cases going to auction is by holding our peers' feet to the flames on this issue--it comes down to TAKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for:

                                  Breeding sound horses to hold up for lifetime "jobs."
                                  Training young stock so they're desirable and have monetary worth.
                                  Keeping all horses in saleable, desirable condition.
                                  Proper retirement and humane euthanasia of oldsters.
                                  Applying peer pressure industry-wide so others in all disciplines do the same.

                                  THIS is how we see an end to the slaughter pipeline.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Businesses tend to do best when they have like minded customers. While it may be cost effective to send your no longer usable horses to auction, I would not do business with that type of person. I have been in the horse business for 30 years and never once was associated with someone who treated their horses as garbage to be used up and tossed out. If that is your experience it is probably you seeking out like minded people.
                                    McDowell Racing Stables

                                    Home Away From Home

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                                      Businesses tend to do best when they have like minded customers. While it may be cost effective to send your no longer usable horses to auction, I would not do business with that type of person. I have been in the horse business for 30 years and never once was associated with someone who treated their horses as garbage to be used up and tossed out. If that is your experience it is probably you seeking out like minded people.
                                      My state has roughly 60,000 horses, second only to Texas. Barns run the gamut from some of the biggest international names down to backyard beginners. The ratio of nice people to dirtbags is probably about a thousand to one, but having attended the sales with a friend who does a lot of finding of cheap pleasure-type horses for people, I have seen what's out there. I also grew up in a riding school in the 70's when the world was a whole lot less PC than now in every way.

                                      There are people on COTH I would not choose to hang around with, also.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        ok we have to quit feeding her.........

                                        The OP has never from her posts on this board, said she owned a horse or leased a horse or ever rode a horse or anything horse related. (Although she has said her father manages some horse racing business in Germany.)

                                        We are simply feeding a troll who posts incessantly. And has, apparently, no interest in horses, other than to post on this board.

                                        I would expect my farrier and vet and other horse professionals not to tell me about their losses in business. Sometimes they do say they have to collect money from deadbeats. And I've collected money owed to my BO from deadbeats. So i don't expect professionals to let people get away with not paying, or paying with bad checks. I know the banking business and I have collected money, free on my part, for my BO and for others.

                                        Now, hopefully OP, who says she does not work and that her husband works for his parents who have a business, not horse related, will tell us how much profit and loss her inlaws had last year. Turnabout is fair play. Tell us all about your fiancés, OP.

                                        ack, auto correct got me again. It's finances, sorry.
                                        Last edited by shezabrazenmare; Mar. 12, 2013, 07:13 AM.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Absent context the survey makes zero sense and tie-in's to other threads haven't been affirmed by the OP. I don't quite get it but...

                                          I expect businesses to suffer losses at a rate they can sustain and in keeping with ethical business practices. That's all pretty subjective. Are we talking "I board a friend's horse on my property to get a working farm tax break" or a publicly traded company with shareholders? What's considered unethical today in America wasn't in the past and isn't overseas. But in aggregate businesses will generally do what they can get away with, seems like.

                                          If this is a conversation about using-horses who are past their usefulness, I do have some opinions about their management that I hope are worth sharing. I personally would like to see a move towards ensuring the future care of schoolies n' such monetarily. This won't work in every situation but could work in a community of well-run barns; something like a Health Savings Account attached to the horse funded by a percentage of earnings. This could be applied to the "adoption" price by a student meaning to semi-retire the horse or applied as credit with the buyer's vet or feed store, for eg. You can't guarantee the horse's well-being but I do think out of respect for the hard work they have given setting a minimum goal of 6 really nice months and humane euth is appropriate and should be doable.

                                          I don't have a problem with using the flesh (and I'm not sure about burying lots of pentobarbital near watersheds - anyone know?) but I do take issue with using horses (for sport and recreation, remember) and then shipping them off as the walking wounded to spend their last days stressed and confused. I think treating them with respect at their end makes us better humans. JMO. We all draw those lines differently, but if the horses are only products, only tools to be used then every discussion ever about mistreatment or equine comfort on this board is time wasted. The lines do have to be drawn.

                                          I spent many years riding at a big family ranch and farm with a large string of schoolies. Who sometimes got knackered. It was pretty hush-hush and I didn't know until I was in High School. I don't know what they do now, but I don't know what they could have reasonably done differently then except not have a lesson program like that at all. They could conceivably have a HSA insurance pool for the ponies and retire some of them on their land, but there would be a limit to how many old horses they could house. Horses live a looong time now. Euth'ing them after a time is more humane but probably harder to explain than dissapearing them. Anyway, I mention the ranch because a lot of the schoolies were bought by their favorite kids. They absorbed all the cost of retirement and everyone was happy. Finding ways to facilitate and subsidize that process makes sense to me.

                                          Feel free to shine light through all the holes in my fanciful ideas. Maybe it will move the conversation forward
                                          Last edited by HillnDale; Mar. 11, 2013, 08:21 PM. Reason: their/there
                                          An auto-save saved my post.

                                          I might be a cylon

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X