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  • #41
    Originally posted by ReSomething View Post
    16 sponsors and 11 entries. That's pretty darn good.
    Not bad for a first year offered at this show. Our boy was supposed to be there but his stifles arthritis started to worsen. Not sure if we are going to retire him or not.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch

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    • #42
      Originally posted by red mares View Post
      I was perfectly aware that it was an ASB. However, what I saw was a horse that looked a bit hot, with plenty of motion and a rider that appeared to have lost her saddlesuit.

      Why people continue to inist that horses like this aren't suited for SS country pleasure classes befuddles me. The head carriage of this horse should be suitable for a CP class. A horse like this shouldn't be considered a hunter bound cull.
      Yes, riders aren't riding HS either.

      Pleasure horse:
      http://imagebunk.com/image/730358_cs-mac-web.jpg

      He wouldn't even get a glance in "hunter" today.

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      • #43
        http://www.sunrisestable.com/
        Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Hippolyta View Post
          Yes, riders aren't riding HS either.

          Pleasure horse:
          http://imagebunk.com/image/730358_cs-mac-web.jpg

          He wouldn't even get a glance in "hunter" today.
          I am not sure I understand what you are saying. This Mrgan horse is being shown saddle seat.
          Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
          Bernard M. Baruch

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          • Original Poster

            #45
            Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
            I am not sure I understand what you are saying. This Mrgan horse is being shown saddle seat.
            What she is saying that what was a successful pleasure saddleseat horse in 1979 has less motion than a successful hunter in 2012.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt984kWBI-8
            Visit my Spoonflower shop

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            • #46
              Originally posted by red mares View Post
              What she is saying that what was a successful pleasure saddleseat horse in 1979 has less motion than a successful hunter in 2012.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt984kWBI-8
              Mybe not as a hunter pleasure horse, but he would possibly be competetive in hunter sport horse.
              Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
              Bernard M. Baruch

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              • #47
                How timely, I opened my email and there was an AMHA correspondence with the head of the judging committee reminding people of judging standards. First on their list:

                A. Hunter Pleasure--The Hunter Pleasure section is growing by leaps and bounds. It is the most participated section at horse shows across the country. We as judges need to be aware and diligent in looking for the correct Hunter Pleasure horse. In recent years the committee has fielded many questions and concerns about how the hunter pleasure section is being judged. Many feel there are inconsistencies between the Standard and the w nners circle. Please remember your job as a Morgan judge is to pick a winner that performs closest to the ideal standard. The current trend is heading away from the original description of a Hunter Pleasure horse.

                A Hunter Pleasure horse should demonstrate a sense of purpose - free moving, and a balanced progressive forward movement. Trappy, not tracking square, laboring, winging, or just too much motion, as a result of shoeing, is to be penalized. A Hunter Pleasure horse should give an effortless feeling that he is enjoying his job. If the reins were dropped, his head would not fall below his knees. A good visual is one where the hunter pleasure horse is trotting across the field and he comes across a hazard, he should be able to easily negotiate it because he is looking where he is going.

                The Hunter Pleasure horse should appear to be carrying his body in a natural frame with ease of motion and without evidence of undue restraint. His motion starts fr! om the hind end and progresses through his shoulders, which allows him to carry his head in the correct frame with quiet, relaxed collection. He should never appear to have his frame controlled by the bridle, be behind the bit, or appear to be pulling himself around on the forehand. Transitioning from the trot to the extended trot is a ground covering motion--Not go faster or higher! The canter and extended canter should follow the same progressive movement forward. The walk should be free-moving and relaxed, not tense or anticipating. The Hunter Pleasure horse should demonstrate SENSE of PURPOSE!!
                Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                Bernard M. Baruch

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                • #48
                  I read a memo from a few yrs ago saying the same thing, think it was from H. Sebring. Maybe this is even the same one.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by shakeytails View Post
                    Eh, I'm not a fan of that look, ie SS country pleasure horse in hunt tack. That mare's motion is too trappy, imo, for hunt. I'd love to see more plain snaffles, of course a double bridle is appropriate, but not when the shanks on the curb are SS length!

                    A couple of years ago one of the ASB people took out an ad of their winning hunter in one of the breed magazines. The caption under the horse's picture said something like "The epitome of the ASB hunter" The problem? They chose a jump picture (small jump) with a leg hanging- not just uneven knees, I mean hanging badly! I was embarrassed for the breed.
                    Hmmm, yeah. When we started videoing ASB/Morgan shows, I asked a judge why a saddle seat bit & bradoon were allowed in the HS class. He had no clue what I was asking, so I tried again - suggesting that it would have been more proper to use a hunt seat (or even dressage) bit & bradoon. I was told there was no difference, so I decided to take a deep breath and end the conversation.

                    On another subject and not directed at shakeytails: I understand that breeds are built differently and therefore carry themselves and move differently. But if one is going to show hunt seat, then some semblance should be maintained. Gripe here pertains to tails that drag the ground and parking out in lineup. Arghhhh
                    www.ayliprod.com
                    Equine Photography in the Northeast

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                    • #50
                      Hey Amwrider- your pm's are full. And the short answer to your question is you certainly may.

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                        YOUR idea of what hunter should look like. Hunter pleasure can have a lot of looks, you would be surprised at what can go over jumps, horses built for saddle seat can be very suprisingly atheletic over fences. They have the ability to fold up their legs nicely over fences.
                        Amen to that! Says the Foxhunting Friesian.
                        http://www.foxhuntingfriesian.blogspot.com
                        http://www.isherwoodstudios.blogspot.com

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by red mares View Post
                          I was perfectly aware that it was an ASB. However, what I saw was a horse that looked a bit hot, with plenty of motion and a rider that appeared to have lost her saddlesuit.

                          Why people continue to inist that horses like this aren't suited for SS country pleasure classes befuddles me. The head carriage of this horse should be suitable for a CP class. A horse like this shouldn't be considered a hunter bound cull.

                          While head carriage in the SS pleasure classes 'might' find this horse acceptable, no one has mentioned that 'hunt seat' as a rule outside of breed venues has many, many riders being trained in the seat.

                          It may be an advantage to the breed to have a place within the breed shows where riders trained in the seat can enjoy their horses.

                          And I am laughing at considering a horse ridden in this tack and habit to be a cull; but then I don't consider SS as the only way to present a 'real' Saddlebred, Arab, Morgan, or Friesian.


                          People can get a tad touchy about being insulted like that.
                          If they want to spend their money and fill classes and bring spectators and buy horses why should that be discouraged just becaues their boots are tall or their heads helmetted?

                          Even modern top circuit hunters look little like good field hunters or show hunters from my youth; while I lament that, I am realistic about marketing and the horses really don't care about their riders togs so long as the saddles fit and the ride isn't abusive.

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                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            As far as the "cull", if you listen to the video it doesn't use that exact language, but implies it.

                            Yes, many SS horses can jump and fold there legs up over fences, I'm just confused that why if they are pushed as an alternative to SS, they still look they are going SS.
                            Visit my Spoonflower shop

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                            • #54
                              My opinion on that, why they are in essence still very much a SS horse and not a "hunter", is the breed organization and show organizers. Note my previous comments on AQHA HUS. Nothing "hunter" about those either and the source is the same, the breed organization and to some degree the trainers, wanting to keep the horses within the breed organization's fold, for lack of a better term.
                              Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                              Incredible Invisible

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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by red mares View Post
                                As far as the "cull", if you listen to the video it doesn't use that exact language, but implies it.

                                Yes, many SS horses can jump and fold there legs up over fences, I'm just confused that why if they are pushed as an alternative to SS, they still look they are going SS.
                                My fault - I can't listen to video, so sorry.

                                The judges at the shows pin on breed type in both Hunter and Western CP classes because that is what they prefer.
                                I sometimes feel as if the judge is trying to find a SS prospect hiding under the tack and they do seem to select the closest match.
                                Can they help themselves for their preferences? I don't think they want to. That is part of what being competitive in breed shows is about to most of the judges.

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                                • #56
                                  This, although an Event prospect (age 5) is more what I think of when hunter and Saddlebreds are mentioned in the same sentence.

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpimjy9kZaQ

                                  Just a different perspective or maybe preference from the breed show ideal. Nothing wrong with either of them.

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                                    This, although an Event prospect (age 5) is more what I think of when hunter and Saddlebreds are mentioned in the same sentence.

                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpimjy9kZaQ

                                    Just a different perspective or maybe preference from the breed show ideal. Nothing wrong with either of them.
                                    LOVE IT! Typical ASB go forward and positive attitude. Arvo looks likes he's loving every minute of it!

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Hippolyta View Post
                                      They do this w Morgans now, too.
                                      Why I am not associated with Morgan breed shows anymore.

                                      Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                                      YOUR idea of what hunter should look like. Hunter pleasure can have a lot of looks, you would be surprised at what can go over jumps, horses built for saddle seat can be very suprisingly atheletic over fences. They have the ability to fold up their legs nicely over fences.
                                      Maybe the horses you've seen! The ones I have seen that move like the Morgan "hunter pleasure" horses usually have weighted shoes and tails that drag 2' on the ground. I have seen these tails get caught on the jumps as they go over, and the weighted shoes is why they snap those feet up so well. Not so nice for the tendons and ligaments when jumping.

                                      ETA: I have an ex-park harness and a park saddle Morgan who, once I chopped off the tail and ripped off the shoes and giant hoof turned out to be a 3'6" jumper at 14.2hh. So I am aware that these horse can do it, but not in the way they're outfitted for a Morgan hunter pleasure class!

                                      Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                                      Also at our shows, the Hunter Hack classes are flat classes that incorporate two jumps at the end of the class as the horses are required to demonstrate jumping ability.
                                      Which, from the Morgan breed shows I have seen recently, this class is a joke. I finally quit when I competed at a regional show and watched these riders make their horses jump oxers backwards. My (H/J) trainer's eyes bugged out of his head and for me, that was it. In the class, my Morgan was the only one who jumped the two fences without refusing at least one, if not both, as he actively competed in H/J shows in the 3' hunters, and still placed at the bottom of the class because he didn't cut it in the "hack" part because he moved like an open hunter. So jumping ability is definitely not weighted much!
                                      Last edited by morganpony86; Mar. 6, 2013, 09:47 AM.

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                                      • #59
                                        A lot of the breed specific hunter classes really are sad...not even close to what a hunter is.

                                        Here is my Morgan "hunter"...we only show in open shows as she would never be competitive in a regional breed show. She shows with a pelham, short feet with plain shoe and a ground length tail (barely touches the ground while standing).

                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkZweM8MKkU

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by ReSomething View Post
                                          basically a flat class.

                                          What gets me impatient about the terminology is that the "breed" hunters, although called hunters, would not likely be competitive in the hunter section of the USEF discipline called H/J. It bugs me, probably for no good reason.
                                          What gets me impatient about the terminology is that the "show" hunters, although called hunters, would not likely be suitable for a live hunt.
                                          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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