• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

*update post 21* The right tack vs too much support that leads to laziness (Saddles)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • *update post 21* The right tack vs too much support that leads to laziness (Saddles)

    I'm looking for thoughts and opinions on this train of thought I've recently heard from trainer I rode with a few times...

    Many (okay ALL) the saddles I've ridden in generally push me into a chair seat. It makes it really difficult for me to post/get into two point when I'm almost sitting on the back of the saddle, plus it causes my knees to twist and bruise, and me to collapse forward. (Note: these are all lesson saddles/borrowed saddles from friends)

    Recently I came into a great deal and got myself a saddle that (except for a slightly longer flap than I want) FITS me. I can easily two point (and stay there), I'm center and my knees don't twist and bruise anymore. My muscles are doing what I know I can do, I'm easily balancing myself through turns, stops and the opinion-ations Miss Mare occasionally has (which are a lot fewer now that we can actually move together)

    What confuses me is that this trainer says that having that kind of saddle support will make me lazy and dependent on the saddle rather than my own abilities...

    Here's the thing, when I practice in my saddle and then ride in saddles with less support/no support/wrong support, I'm actually more able to fight against the chair seat than before and ride correctly.

    So peoples thoughts on equipment making us lazy? What about if it just doesn't fit the person? Does it do more harm than good? Does it teach bad habits/muscle memory? (My experience is YES)

    Note: I am not looking to out the trainer, or disagree, or anything. Everyone has their thoughts and thats what I'm asking for as I like to know all the facts/opinions before making one myself.
    Last edited by sam.j4; Mar. 3, 2013, 10:28 AM.
    Telling a worrier to relax is counterproductive. Then we worry about relaxing.

  • #2
    I'm not a professional by any means but I would think that you want equipment that puts you into the correct position. why else would people spend all this money on saddles fit specifically for them and there horse. I say Perfect practice makes Perfect. Go with the Saddle that fits you and your horse!
    The Love for a Horse is just as Complicated as the Love for another Human being, If you have never Loved a Horse you will Never Understand!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't believe equipment can make you "lazy." I think it can get in the way of an effective position.

      It sounds to me like this new saddle is helping you ride better, which is the whole point of a saddle.

      Now it may be that what your trainer is arguing is that there is an even better saddle out there for you, one that has the right balance and has different levels and amounts of padding. For example, certain kinds of "support" can keep me from using my leg effectively. So that's the question to ask: "if not this saddle, what would you recommend?"

      It's hard to know without knowing your ability, seeing the saddle, etc.

      And the last point is that the cost is a factor. If you like this saddle and it's inexpensive, then for sure it's a keeper. If it's an expensive saddle, and you wouldn't be able to move on from it, you might think a bit more about it if the trainer is really opposed.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • #4
        Does running with both hands free make you "lazy" in comparison with running with one hand tied behind your back?
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #5
          You can't be effective if a saddle puts you into the wrong position....as this saddle is putting you in a good position, then you are already a more effective rider. And, this does not equal lazy! If YOU like the saddle and you feel more secure in it and it fits your horse, it shouldn't matter to trainer what kind of saddle it is. Is your trainer, by any chance, trying to get you to purchase a saddle that they'll get a kick back on?
          Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!

          Comment


          • #6
            I found my best solution was an old-fashioned flat saddle as the position is ALL me. But if you're buying the new kinds with padding (which feel kind of funny to me) why WOULDN'T you buy the one that fits you best? I mean, yes, first priority is does it fit the horse (I got the flat saddle because Lucky didn't fit my old AP and he's the stereotypical skinny TB) but after that, it's your butt in it, not the trainer's.
            Author Page
            Like Omens In the Night on Facebook
            Steampunk Sweethearts

            Comment


            • #7
              My thoughts on the matter go something like: For a very long time I was riding with my stirrups a half-hole too short. I had a hard time getting my leg around my horse, somehow they managed to encourage me to draw my leg up even further when cantering, I was in a serious chair seat that I fought to push my leg back out of, and my heels were almost never down.

              Just recently, I took the advice of someone who said it looked like my stirrups were too short though didn't believe they were, and dropped them a half hole. Instant change! My heels were easier to keep down, I could get my leg around my horse more, it was easier to keep out of a chair seat, and I all around felt more stable.

              Who knew?

              Anyway, my point is, I think it sounds like the saddle is working for you. And at least if the saddle is helping get you in a position that's working for you...you can build up that muscle memory to keep that position in another saddle.
              The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
              Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.

              Comment


              • #8
                Not true for everyone...but the saddle I have that puts me in a chair seat is built with a stirrup bar that is too far forward for me. From what others have told me, this is a common problem for women, as many saddles in the past were designed by/for men, whose pelvises are made differently than ours are. Look at the Schleese saddle website, at some of his saddle fit for women stuff. I'm not saying to buy one of his saddles but some of his points make sense. If you have found a saddle that fits your body, so you can ride in a good position compared to what you had before, find a polite way to tell your trainer to shush. Is the new saddle a bucket seat, fluffy flap, knee and thigh block one? If so, I guess I could see your trainers point to a small degree, but it is still ridiculous. Better to ride in a couch with a seat belt than have to fight a saddle that will NOT let you put your leg where it should be!
                If said trainer is concerned while you are still learning you will become dependent on a fluffy style saddle (and we still don't know if the one you like actually is), continue to ride in what puts you in good balance. Be on the lookout for something more pared down that still puts you in a good position...but don't get talked out of what is actually working! A saddle that works for you makes a huge difference to your riding.
                Good luck!

                Comment


                • #9
                  You want to be comfortable because you being as balanced and comfy as you can will be best for the horse, that doesn't has to continuously try to compensate for your out of balance self.

                  Comfortable rider = comfortable horse.

                  There are rough horses and those make it hard to teach beginners, because they never quite can get with the horse.

                  There are way smooth horses and those make it hard to teach an independent seat because there is little to balance on those.

                  So, while there is several to consider in how comfortable a rider may be, tack, horse and the rider's fitness and conformation also, I would go for, in general, the more comfortable, the better.

                  It is a real relief to find a saddle and horse that fits one rider best and if you found one such saddle, at least try using it for a while before considering why and if to change again.

                  The more skilled a rider, the more it can be effective in most any saddle or horse, but will be it's best in the most fitting, for that rider and task at hand.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't understand the trainer's point of view.
                    If you're constantly struggling against the saddle to be able to still ride correctly, yes you're expanding energy, but it is wasted energy, IMO.
                    A saddle that fits makes a wold of difference. Like you, I struggled with a couple of saddles that did not help me at all over fences. And my green (at the time) horse sure let me know that she wasn't happy! I had trouble staying in 2-point, my lower leg would fly backwards over the fence, etc. etc. Sensitive mare would react with a boink/take-off on landing.
                    When I finally found a saddle that fit me, she started to behave much better when jumping. Coincidence? I don't think so.
                    My saddle is not particularly comfortable, in fact, a friend who rode in it found it too hard and flat for her taste, but I feel very secure in it over jumps.
                    Ottbs - The finish line is only the beginning!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I used to feel like "The Good Rider" can be effective in any saddle (I'm not one of those, but I aspire to be someday.) I feel differently now, though. Now, I think it isn't really about whether or not the saddle makes riding "easier," but whether its construction works with or against your body.

                      I bought my first non-Wintec saddle several months ago, and I've been trying to make it work because it is expensive and lovely and custom fitted to my horse, but it is terrible for me. I've been fighting with it for months and all I have to show for my effort is back pain.

                      The saddle I now need to rehome has all the "easy buttons" -- the big thigh blocks, the deep seat, etc. -- but it simply doesn't work with me, so therefore it is harder to ride in. Quite the opposite of leading to laziness! On the other hand, the most comfortable saddle I ever rode in was minimalist-style with no knee roll, so not something that would lead to lazy riding, but it fit my body well.

                      The moral I learned from this story is that there are two bodies involved in riding. Nobody's giving out ribbons for masochism, so I'm going to get a saddle that us fits both!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The trainer's thinking is absurd, in my opinion. You should not have to fight your tack, and that does nothing to make you a better rider.

                        It's kind of like saying marathoners are lazy unless they run in scuba flippers.

                        I don't understand how using a piece of equipment that impairs your ability to hold your position would do you any good at all.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This makes me think of the lesson barns where none of the saddles fit the horses, or the riders, but the instructors tell everyone they just have to learn to ride despite them - the old "builds character" approach. I actually had a pony club person tell me not to tell families that their kids needed new/better saddles, but to just keep teaching the kids to ride as well as they could with what they had - "don't blame the tack for their bad riding." I did not agree.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by suzier444 View Post
                            Nobody's giving out ribbons for masochism
                            "It's kind of like saying marathoners are lazy unless they run in scuba flippers. "

                            As someone who has struggled with this problem, I love the above quotes!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Which style do you ride? (English, western, dressage...) And what brand saddle did you buy that is working for you?

                              I have the *worst* body in the world for riding and I'm always struggling to find a saddle that doesn't hurt and put me in a chair seat. Any saddle.

                              Originally posted by sam.j4 View Post
                              I'm looking for thoughts and opinions on this train of thought I've recently heard from trainer I rode with a few times...

                              Many (okay ALL) the saddles I've ridden in generally push me into a chair seat. It makes it really difficult for me to post/get into two point when I'm almost sitting on the back of the saddle, plus it causes my knees to twist and bruise, and me to collapse forward. (Note: these are all lesson saddles/borrowed saddles from friends)

                              Recently I came into a great deal and got myself a saddle that (except for a slightly longer flap than I want) FITS me. I can easily two point (and stay there), I'm center and my knees don't twist and bruise anymore. My muscles are doing what I know I can do, I'm easily balancing myself through turns, stops and the opinion-ations Miss Mare occasionally has (which are a lot fewer now that we can actually move together)

                              What confuses me is that this trainer says that having that kind of saddle support will make me lazy and dependent on the saddle rather than my own abilities...

                              Here's the thing, when I practice in my saddle and then ride in saddles with less support/no support/wrong support, I'm actually more able to fight against the chair seat than before and ride correctly.

                              So peoples thoughts on equipment making us lazy? What about if it just doesn't fit the person? Does it do more harm than good? Does it teach bad habits/muscle memory? (My experience is YES)

                              Note: I am not looking to out the trainer, or disagree, or anything. Everyone has their thoughts and thats what I'm asking for as I like to know all the facts/opinions before making one myself.
                              In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I agree with everyone who said "use what works best for you to achieve a correct seat". I've literally logged thousands of hours in saddles that didn't necessarily fit me well and it's been an enormous pain in the a** to retrain myself to ride more correctly now that I have my own horses and tack and can afford to make everything work together more correctly.

                                That said, I've heard a lot of trainers opine that people ought to learn how to ride with minimal crutches (knee blocks, thigh blocks, deep seat, hanging on to a grab strap or horn, etc) so as to develop an independent seat. That is a very, very different concept than having to fight against any saddle that puts you in a bad position.
                                ---------------------------

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Does the trainer agree that these other saddles "put you in a chair seat"? Could it be that they just dont fight your tendency toward a chair seat?
                                  The only way I can make sense of the trainer's comments is if they feel that the saddle is adequate but you have not yet developed the skills or strength to perform correctly in it. (also a problem if you just want to ride and enjoy your horse!) The padded saddle may hold you in a good position. For many of us thats great, we'll just ride in that saddle! But if you are working on improving your seat, you may find that you develop bad habits of bracing against the padding to hold your position and that you may never develop the strength to do without blocks and padding.
                                  I think that, ideally, you want a saddle that enables and encourages a correct position, but that provides enough leeway to adjust your position and improve your skills. But a lot depends upon your condition, ambition, and what you need to avoid the cold, hard ground!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    My thought is the saddles you've tried (that have put you in a chair seat) probably don't fit the horse(s) you've been riding. If you feel that your leg is in front of you and you need to pinch your knee to get out of the saddle that sounds like a saddle fit issue for the HORSE, not the rider. I also totally disagree with the lazy comment your trainer made. Proper and effective riding can be achieved by doing exercises like no stirrup work, 2 point, sitting trot, pole work etc.
                                    PS if you are getting bruises on your knees from over compensating for poor fitting tack (rider or horse), I might suggest you look into taking some lessons elsewhere. It sounds like your trainer is ok with your whole position being incorrect

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I have found that "deep seated" saddles tip me forward and, like others have mentioned, prefer a bare-bones flat saddle with no rolls, blocks, etc. I have been eyeing old saddles on ebay & wondering how I would find one to fit both me & my horse. Right now we have a $$ saddle that fits her, not me (came with her when I got her). I hate it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I'm very sorry, but that was a stupid thing for any trainer to say in a case like yours. I too suspect the saddles didn't fit the horse properly - an unbalanced saddle really affects the rider's position. Even a slightly narrow saddle will lift the pommel, making the rider fight to keep their balance and position. Yes, a rider can learn to keep their position in such a saddle, BUT it creates problems in the rider.

                                        I had a very wide horse at one time. When he jumped he would literally jump through my legs - I'd slide back 3-4" still in my two point. He was just too wide for me to put any power into my legs to hold onto him. Until I found my "magic" saddle. It had long billets and getting the girth out from under my leg made him just that bit narrower to allow me to keep my leg on when he jumped. And this was a minimalist no rolls, blocks or padding for the rider. Such a tiny little difference made all the difference.

                                        When I was trying new saddles one time I rode in one that had a very wide twist and I simply could not get my leg on my horse. It just wasn't possible for me in that saddle. Another tiny thing.

                                        The saddle balance thing I mentioned can be a tiny difference too. You may not even realize it's there. Another time, another horse outgrew my dressage saddle and I bit the bullet and replaced it. I discovered that my body had been compensating for the slight uphill balance of the old saddle and I literally could not post trot in the new saddle because it was level! Talk about embarassing! My muscle memory kept tipping me forward to compensate for the no-longer-present uphill saddle balance. And this new saddle DID have knee blocks.

                                        When I was trying jumping saddles last summer I rode in one that fit my horse, but the saddler and I felt it wasn't doing me any favours. Until I shortened my stirrups a hole (to the correct jumping length - I'd been riding a bit long because I hadn't had a jumping saddle in 2-3 years). Suddenly it was great because my leg fit into the hollows around the blocks. The saddle wasn't holding me in position with the blocks, the blocks were defining the shape of the rider who would fit the saddle. It's easier to manage in a saddle that doesn't fit the rider when there are no blocks and padding to get in the way, but the saddle shouldn't lock the rider into position. I rode in one that did lock me into position and I hated it. It had the same sort of blocks and padding my saddle has, but it didn't fit me properly.

                                        A saddle that locks the rider in position might cause a certain degree of laziness or reliance on that lock, but a saddle that fits the rider properly, no way. You should feel like your body and legs simply fall/drape into position in the saddle. You are absolutely right that riding more in a saddle that allows you to maintain your position easily will make you better able to handle riding in a saddle that pushes you out of position (on the rare occasion that you can't avoid it).

                                        And now you have learned first hand how silly that statement is, and can pass on your experience to someone else who struggles with their position.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X