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Papers Not Being Transfered After Sale

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  • Papers Not Being Transfered After Sale

    So my friend loses her longtime heart horse to colic, notices an ad on FB I have responded to, asks me about it(I don't need another but this is super cute). He is for sale as the owner has brain cancer and wants to place her horses with homes she is happy about. I go and try him, love him, she waits to show the horse to any other buyers after meeting me and talking to my friend on the phone.
    She goes and tries him after I have looked, loves him, vets him, cash changes hands. So far so good. The owner has forgotten to bring the papers when we go to pick him up( he has both JC and APHA papers). She wants to come and see him etc, so friend is happy to do this, be in touch via email. Off we go.
    That was in mid September. After a few communications she has fallen off the face of the earth. She is regularly on FB, but is refusing to respond to email, phone messages, FB messages. The last communication was thru me on FB where she claims to have had her hubby send them from his office and that she can get the tracking number. That was over a month ago.
    I and my friend realize she is ill, but obviously not that badly off, but could be affecting her judgement. What to do next?

  • #2
    IMO- keep contacting her. try to be polite, but make it clear you WANT these papers. I am going thru something similar as seller claims she cannot FIND the papers. UGH.

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    • #3
      I would go to her in person, and ask for the papers. I find it easier than trying to do it through mail, phone, etc. when having a problem.

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      • #4
        If she continues to be unavailable, gather a copy of all electronic correspondance, including screen shots of your facebook conversations, copy of bill of sale, copy of cashed check, whatever you've got, write up the facts based on dates or approximate dates, and file in small claims.

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        • #5
          It is much easier to get the papers when you have the leverage of having the cash in your pocket.

          If the registration papers were that important, the sale should have gone:

          Buyer: I have the cash here, do you have the registrations for the horse?
          Seller: Ooops, I forgot them at home.
          Buyer: OK then, let's meet here again tomorrow. You bring the horse and papers and I'll bring the money.

          Now, good luck getting them back. Does the seller even have a legal obligation to surrender the registrations to the buyer?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jengersnap View Post
            If she continues to be unavailable, gather a copy of all electronic correspondance, including screen shots of your facebook conversations, copy of bill of sale, copy of cashed check, whatever you've got, write up the facts based on dates or approximate dates, and file in small claims.
            Do this (minus the small claims, for now), send the person a certified, registered letter with signature required requesting the registration papers, send a copy to both the JC and APHA so they know what is going on (even if they don't care or can't do anything) it lets the person know you are getting serious about getting the papers. Make the final line in the letter that if papers are not received in XX days, it will be turned over to an attorney.
            "My treasures do not chink or gleam, they glitter in the sun and neigh at night."

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            • #7
              Just curious, how can the horse have JC and APHA papers?

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              • #8
                yes I found that interesting as well
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                Procrastinate NOW
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by caballero View Post
                  It is much easier to get the papers when you have the leverage of having the cash in your pocket.

                  If the registration papers were that important, the sale should have gone:

                  Buyer: I have the cash here, do you have the registrations for the horse?
                  Seller: Ooops, I forgot them at home.
                  Buyer: OK then, let's meet here again tomorrow. You bring the horse and papers and I'll bring the money.

                  Now, good luck getting them back. Does the seller even have a legal obligation to surrender the registrations to the buyer?
                  You've given good advice.

                  To answer your question it depends on the contract between buyer and seller. In this case it's unclear what the seller represented. Two sets of papers are mentioned, but we don't know where that information comes from. We don't know that the seller was the registered owner* in either registry.

                  In some instances papers are withheld, such as when a horse is sold on time. In such an instance the buyer should get a copy of the papers at sale as part of the contract. That way if something happens later (including something innocent like a seller dying the day after payment was made but before they could transfer the papers) they have a document to put before a third party fact finder, like a judge, who can grant effective relief.

                  G.

                  *Registration papers are some evidence ownership, but not conclusive evidence in most jurisdictions. Possession plus papers is pretty close to conclusive, however. If you want to see a real Charlie Foxtrot consider the horse in the possession of Mr. A under a Bill of Sale and Mr. B and Ms. C both having registration papers from two different registries and each claiming ownership. I think things like this are why judges drink.

                  If paper exist they should follow the horse. Nothing should change hands until all issues, including transfer of registration, is ready to be completed.

                  G.
                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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                  • #10
                    If there is dated communication that the papers were part of the agreement (such as the Facebook communication to the OP that the husband has sent them and could offer a tracking number), this helps strengthen the arguement in the case of a she said/she said.

                    TBs can certainly be sold without papers. In fact, the person with the papers can send the foal papers (term we use for registration papers) back to the JC and cancel the horse's registration. The horse is then without pedigree.

                    In the case of APHA papers, there was a rule with the APHA at one time that would allow TBs with paint markings (sabino and belly spot being most common) to be presentable for Paint Horse registration and breeding. I do not think this is the case anymore (2005 ruling), but some TB stallions do still have both registrations and can cover registered TBs to produce dual registerable foals. See Rule 1 here:

                    http://www.aphaonline.org/HtmlHelp/r...quirements.htm

                    Jockey Club "sold without pedigree" designation discussed here on Question 5:

                    https://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/...ryhelpdeskfaq&

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SLR View Post
                      Just curious, how can the horse have JC and APHA papers?
                      From APHA online

                      1.
                      What is the bloodline requirement for registration of a horse with APHA?



                      In order to qualify for registration with APHA, a foal’s sire and dam must be registered with either the APHA, or American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA), or Jockey Club (Thoroughbred.) Beginning Jan. 1, 2005, all horses presented for registration to the Regular Registry were also required to have at least one registered Paint parent (Regular Registry, Solid Paint Bred or Breeding Stock). Exception: Horses with either two QH or two Thoroughbred or 1 QH and 1 Thoroughbred parent are eligible for registration if the horse was produced by a breeding prior to January 1, 2005 and are eligible for Regular Registry.
                      I think your friend is out of luck on the papers. If you don't get them at the time of sale, you're probably not going to get them. Not a legal opinion, just an observation of how these things usually turn out.
                      I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

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                      • #12
                        I'm presuming the horse is a stallion, or if a gelding that you are planning on racing it. If so, you can get duplicate papers from the JC.... http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#nine
                        The fee is $175 and you must submit proof that you made a good faith effort to get the original papers from the seller through an attorney or representative of the court. So the actual cost would be much higher (unless you have a close friend or family member who is an attorney).
                        If you don't plan on either breeding or racing the horse, not sure why you'd even bother with the hassle.
                        ----//\\----
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                        • #13
                          I, too, bought one of those horses with "lost papers." The seller's agent remembered the horse's registered name, so I looked up his pedigree. It may be the same horse or it may not. His type and abilities match what the pedigree says, but it doesn't really matter to me - he's a good horse; he's a gelding so no issues with registering offspring; and I'd rather watch paint dry than show a horse.

                          I don't really know what would happen in magistrate's court. (I don't practice in magistrate's court for that very reason ) I'm not sure the owner could be forced to turn over the papers - your friend might be able to void the sale and get her money back, but then she'd have to give the horse back. Does she not want the horse without the papers?
                          I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

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                          • #14
                            Do you have his APHA & JC registered name or number? Whoever the current listed owner is can request duplicate copies if they are lost.

                            Good luck though, because my dog's registration papers have "been in the mail" for 5 years now

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                            • #15
                              Not sure about the JC but contact the APHA. They have a way to change registration over on horses in cases like this. Are you 100% he is registered?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                                I think you are misreading the requirement. That applies to a parent of a foal or the requirements to register a paint horse. I believe Jengersnap's response applies.

                                It doesn't give a horse 2 sets of papers.

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                                • #17
                                  JC papers SAY they go with a horse and can't be sold or withheld, but if it's a nonbreeding animal you don't intend to race, some sellers withhold them to control the horse's use after sale (no, I don't approve of that. Anyone who feels that strongly about what's done with a horse should simply never sell it, full stop. Horses are personal property, and you can't control personal property you don't legally own.)

                                  In this case, if the seller's sick and the horse is never going to be used for breeding or racing and isn't going to be inspected for a book that requires proof of identity, I'm not quite sure it would be worth pursuing but she just has to keep after them. If she just can't get them out of the old owner, cold as it sounds watch for notice the old owner's dead and contact the executor of their estate to tell them the buyer is owed papers and they need to be turned over.
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                                  • #18
                                    "Stupid is as stupid does"
                                    The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by SLR View Post
                                      I think you are misreading the requirement. That applies to a parent of a foal or the requirements to register a paint horse. I believe Jengersnap's response applies.

                                      It doesn't give a horse 2 sets of papers.

                                      There are some double registered APHA/TB's out there: http://www.dettmersrisingsun.com/thanks.htm
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                                      • #20
                                        I had a double registered JC/APHA stallion, and all of his full thoroughbred offspring can be registered with JC and APHA.

                                        I would send a certified letter. We all live and learn, unfortunately the hard way. I have bought horses across the country and I just trusted the seller to send papers with the horses.

                                        The only time I had a problem getting papers was from a trainer I knew that refused to give them to me. He dumped his colt at the feedlot to get $50 for him because he was sick. I went and paid $500 to the feedlot guy for the horse. I just got new papers issued thru the JC with no problem at all. BTW-the horse went on to run and win lots more money for several years after that.

                                        If you have a bill of sale then call APHA (if you know the horses APHA name because it might be different then his JC name) and let them know what happened. They might be able to help you.
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