• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Tin Foil Hatters Unite. More animal rights attacks

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
    Why does it always have to be this pervasive Us Vs Them mentality.

    We all admittedly are animal lovers , we all agree on the importance of animal welfare and we all agree that legislation to define those things are important.

    It is the grey areas that are always subject to personal experience and interpretation.

    Honest question for those who call out the "Tin Foil Hatters". What about their/out cynicism and speculation do you really take issue with? We are not suggesting no legislation. Just pointing out the potential fallibility in the one provided by the OP. The law is fine , great , dandy ...but it allows for personal interpretation. I think asking for more definition is not a bad thing? Who would it hurt ..nobody. It could only prevent issues.

    I understand nobody likes the boy who cried wolf. Just remember in the end the wolf did come.
    It is easier to jump on the posters than address what doesn't has defense.
    Still don't see anyone that read any of the links provided.
    Hard to debate when you don't know "the rest of the story", only go by myths and propaganda from animal rights extremists and their supporters.

    Already forgot the HSUS lawsuit where the circus did prove they paid someone to lie about the level of care and supposed abuse?
    That time the HSUS tripped big time, counting that no one would questions what they do.
    Sadly not everyone can defend themselves, glad someone finally did and prevailed.

    I heard the deposition the president of the HSUS presented to Congress in the very misguided "ban horse slaughter bill", that would have impacted all we do with horses, not just horse slaughter, that the HSUS pushed so hard for.

    Very telling, how highly that one person thinks of himself and his power, he even practically threatened the senators with the might of his association if they didn't vote the way he demanded of them.

    Yes, there is so much more to this than many here seem to know or even seem to want to know.
    Sad, because not paying attention is really going to eventually curtail our rights to have animals to the point of no return and will end, as the HSUS president said: "One generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me".

    Comment


    • Very few people here are RARA (I don't know if any are, but I'm going to guess in a big group of people there's likely to be someone in every extreme). Very few people here think that there should be no punishment for neglected or abused horses. So everyone here HAS some common ground: they care about horses (and all animals) and they are concerned about their health and safety.

      If everyone took a step back and stopped worrying about fighting and agendas and suspicion, you could all probably agree that we need good legislation that protects animals and that does not throw the animal owner under the bus. The question becomes: how do we get to that good legislation?

      We don't have proof that HSUS, PETA, or the Tin Foil Hat Brigade are behind the laws proposed in CA. They may simply be badly written laws that were proposed by animal control officers who have found themselves in a bad position. What DO you do when you find an animal who is down, injured, and obviously suffering without an identifiable owner? I sure hope you don't do what one county we had to work with did: just leave the animal suffering (with a shattered leg) for days.

      The law has holes - and most laws do. Those people who live in CA need to work with their legislators to close those holes. Require a veterinarian evaluation before an animal can be euthanized.

      The hearing and costs issues might be harder. The animal owner should help cover the costs of the rehabilitation of his/her animals if he/she is they are determined to be neglected (by a court with a Judge or JP). The county should have to pay for the costs of caring for the animals if the seizure was not valid. That's how it works in several states. It makes the counties leery of seizing unless they have a solid case, and that's how it should be. Can we rationally discuss problems with these procedure? Any ideas for a solution?

      What other specific problems do you guys have with this law? (Not just 'HSUS must be behind it so I hate it!'). Lets discuss them. Even if you don't live in CA, a rational discussion of the problems/holes and ways to fix them can help if similar legislation is proposed or already in place in your state.
      Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

      Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

      Comment


      • Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
        Can we rationally discuss problems with these procedure? Any ideas for a solution?

        What other specific problems do you guys have with this law? (Not just 'HSUS must be behind it so I hate it!'). Lets discuss them. Even if you don't live in CA, a rational discussion of the problems/holes and ways to fix them can help if similar legislation is proposed or already in place in your state.
        Since you asked so politely

        ...
        "(b) Every sick, disabled, infirm, or crippled animal, except a
        dog or cat, that is abandoned in any city, county, city and county,
        or judicial district may be killed humanely euthanized by the officer
        if, after a reasonable search, no owner of the animal can be found

        What is a reasonable search what is the time frame (perhaps all livestock owners should have an in-case of emergency card at the ACO office defining how to reach them and wishes)? . Who will define "sick, disabled, infirm, or crippled animals" Will their be education provided to train A.C officers and peace officers how to evaluate and handle livestock.

        e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, any
        peace officer, humane society officer, or any animal control officer
        may, with the approval of his or her immediate superior, humanely
        destroy euthanize any stray or abandoned animal
        in the field in
        any case where the animal is too severely injured to move or where a veterinarian is not available and it would be more humane to dispose of the animal.

        Define "too severely injured" There are a lot of grotesque injuries that are treatable , some that are horrifying to look at but not life threatening. Those parameters need to be defined. Humane is subjective. "Ma'am I think your horse broke a leg it was non weight bearing and I put it down"...but wait the autopsy reported it was just an abscess




        I don't like the part about the agency being self governing. How can they impartially decide if their own seizure was withing reason vs groundless. Especially since deciding against themselves puts them on the hook for the bill.
        "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
          "(b) Every sick, disabled, infirm, or crippled animal, except a
          dog or cat, that is abandoned in any city, county, city and county,
          or judicial district may be killed humanely euthanized by the officer
          if, after a reasonable search, no owner of the animal can be found

          What is a reasonable search what is the time frame (perhaps all livestock owners should have an in-case of emergency card at the ACO office defining how to reach them and wishes)? . Who will define "sick, disabled, infirm, or crippled animals" Will their be education provided to train A.C officers and peace officers how to evaluate and handle livestock.


          I think defining a reasonable search time is good. And maybe something like: If a veterinarian determines that the animal is suffering and cannot be reasonably made comfortable, the veterinarian may euthanize the animal. (There may be a way to better define 'suffering and cannot be made reasonably comfortable'). If the veterinarian can keep the animal comfortable, the officer must search for X days.

          In Texas, with an estray who isn't injured, the officer must search for 15 days and that search must include public notices in the paper. Texas doesn't really have a clause for what to do if the animal is hurt/injured and suffering. I've told officers before that they need to go get a warrant to seize and then a court order (from a judge/JP) to euthanize after a veterinarian determines that that's best. That, however, is not spelled out in our law. I just want to make sure all precautions are covered and that an animal isn't euthanized without an examination and that it isn't left to suffer either.



          Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
          e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, any
          peace officer, humane society officer, or any animal control officer
          may, with the approval of his or her immediate superior, humanely
          destroy euthanize any stray or abandoned animal
          in the field in
          any case where the animal is too severely injured to move or where a veterinarian is not available and it would be more humane to dispose of the animal.

          Define "too severely injured" There are a lot of grotesque injuries that are treatable , some that are horrifying to look at but not life threatening. Those parameters need to be defined. Humane is subjective. "Ma'am I think your horse broke a leg it was non weight bearing and I put it down"...but wait the autopsy reported it was just an abscess
          I agree - it seems that it would be rare that the agency wouldn't have veterinarians it could call. But if you think of worst case scenario: a horse hit by a car, on the ground, multiple fractures, dying and suffering - a vet might not make it in time to prevent suffering. Could you include something like a phone consultation with a veterinarian? It wouldn't be perfect but it might give more guidance than: Oh that horse is limping, I think he broke his leg!

          Or maybe a requirement that all agencies with enforcement powers for animal neglect/abandonment/estray issues should instead be required to have a veterinarian (or two?) on some kind of retainer for these types of situations? They shouldn't be having to hunt one up because they had an incident.. Is that reasonable (to have one on some type of retainer/have an established relationship with one)?

          I don't like the part about the agency being self governing. How can they impartially decide if their own seizure was withing reason vs groundless. Especially since deciding against themselves puts them on the hook for the bill.
          I do agree there. I think any seizure, whether it is because of a civil violation or a criminal violation, should need a hearing or trial in front of a judge or JP where both sides present their facts/evidence/testimony and the judge/JP then makes the decision.
          Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

          Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
            And my point is that there is a middle ground that can be found if the name calling and knee-jerking would stop.
            I can't believe it took me this long into the thread to remember that I have real-life experience in assisting in drafting animal-welfare legislation - I STG, my brain is like a sieve sometimes

            Angela -- you may remember our trials and tribulations here in NYC a couple years back, which I shared on this board, regarding legislation that WE initiated.

            For years a large segment of the NYC carriage industry wanted to codify standard/best practices in local law. The reasons were simple:
            • We wanted a compulsory industry-wide standard that we would be held accountable to, something that we could point to to help dispel the lies and misinformation continually put out by our adversaries
            • We wanted the compulsory industry-wide standard to bring the very few stragglers who did not do things the way the majority did; this was not necessarily because they were doing things the "wrong" way, but simply because we wanted everything to be uniform
            • We already WERE a pro-active group, but wanted to be able to PROVE that


            The bill that was passed by the NYC Council - which I helped to write - was comprehensive; it included things like stall size, turn out, vet checks, horse ID, hours/areas of operation, driver training and licensing, vehicle inspection, and forced the city to finally comply with its own 1981 law which said that a Horse Advisory Board be formed, which would include a vet, a member of the general public, an ASPCA rep, a DoH rep, and 2 reps from the riding and driving stables, who would meet quarterly to address any issues regarding our horses.

            The bill had teeth; DoH, ASPCA, and DCA were given new powers regarding each of the above listed, and it was implemented within 90 days.

            What do you think the response was from the RARAs?

            They fought it tooth and nail; disparaged it, lied about it, tried every way they could to stop it.

            Because there IS no middle ground for them.

            The ASPCA went along with it by remaining silent; part of that was political in nature, and part was that as a governing body, they couldn't really object to upgrades and codification of best practices. What they did say, however, is although they would enforce the new law, they would continue in their efforts to ban us Then of course, they partnered with NYCLASS and gave them $450,000 to do their lobbying for them

            No, I am not against legislation, just will never appease the enemy and let them get a foot in the door.
            Last edited by michaleenflynn; Feb. 12, 2013, 03:33 PM.
            VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

            https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Airfern View Post
              We are not tramping through fields looking for downer cows and cripple horses to shoot willy nilly.
              This actually made me LOL and I scared the dog when I did so.
              Celtic Charisma (R.I.P) ~ http://flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/2387275281
              Proud owner of "The Intoxicated Moose!"
              "Hope is not an executable plan" ~ My Mom
              I love my Dublin-ator

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
                [/COLOR]I think defining a reasonable search time is good. And maybe something like: If a veterinarian determines that the animal is suffering and cannot be reasonably made comfortable, the veterinarian may euthanize the animal. (There may be a way to better define 'suffering and cannot be made reasonably comfortable'). If the veterinarian can keep the animal comfortable, the officer must search for X days.

                In Texas, with an estray who isn't injured, the officer must search for 15 days and that search must include public notices in the paper. Texas doesn't really have a clause for what to do if the animal is hurt/injured and suffering. I've told officers before that they need to go get a warrant to seize and then a court order (from a judge/JP) to euthanize after a veterinarian determines that that's best. That, however, is not spelled out in our law. I just want to make sure all precautions are covered and that an animal isn't euthanized without an examination and that it isn't left to suffer either.





                I agree - it seems that it would be rare that the agency wouldn't have veterinarians it could call. But if you think of worst case scenario: a horse hit by a car, on the ground, multiple fractures, dying and suffering - a vet might not make it in time to prevent suffering. Could you include something like a phone consultation with a veterinarian? It wouldn't be perfect but it might give more guidance than: Oh that horse is limping, I think he broke his leg!

                Or maybe a requirement that all agencies with enforcement powers for animal neglect/abandonment/estray issues should instead be required to have a veterinarian (or two?) on some kind of retainer for these types of situations? They shouldn't be having to hunt one up because they had an incident.. Is that reasonable (to have one on some type of retainer/have an established relationship with one)?

                [COLOR=#000000]

                I do agree there. I think any seizure, whether it is because of a civil violation or a criminal violation, should need a hearing or trial in front of a judge or JP where both sides present their facts/evidence/testimony and the judge/JP then makes the decision.
                well in this context, the vet 'known to ordinarily treat cats and dogs' gives me a pause...I mean, there is this vet chick in NYC...the infamous one, card carrying WAR member who has no idea what to do with a horse...sure, she's got a license and all...but goodness gracious...really?

                That lady is probably one of the top people who can't tell a chestnut from a cancer tumor....

                I don't have a problem with the county having a vet on retainer, I think it is cost efficient for them, and thus for us, but what if the stray animal is NOT a cat or dog? What about a bird? Or Lizard?

                Comment


                • While debating how to improve these bills is perhaps pointing out their failings and that is a good thing; the fact is they have passed and are in force.

                  Changing existing legislation takes a concerted effort and a lot of money... which is how this got into law in the first place. Now who could have done that??


                  Yes, there is a wolf.

                  And it is not the animal owner
                  -who now stands without recourse to a trumped up seizure, bills and fines;
                  where agencies are not accountable,
                  nor does the owner have a right to due process with an impartial judge.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                    While debating how to improve these bills is perhaps pointing out their failings and that is a good thing; the fact is they have passed and are in force.

                    Changing existing legislation takes a concerted effort and a lot of money... which is how this got into law in the first place. Now who could have done that??


                    Yes, there is a wolf.

                    And it is not the animal owner
                    -who now stands without recourse to a trumped up seizure, bills and fines;
                    where agencies are not accountable,
                    nor does the owner have a right to due process with an impartial judge.
                    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                      well in this context, the vet 'known to ordinarily treat cats and dogs' gives me a pause...I mean, there is this vet chick in NYC...the infamous one, card carrying WAR member who has no idea what to do with a horse...sure, she's got a license and all...but goodness gracious...really?

                      That lady is probably one of the top people who can't tell a chestnut from a cancer tumor....

                      I don't have a problem with the county having a vet on retainer, I think it is cost efficient for them, and thus for us, but what if the stray animal is NOT a cat or dog? What about a bird? Or Lizard?
                      The part of the bill about 'a vet known to treat dogs/cats' was in regards to AC finding or needing care for dogs and cats. I did not see that they were recommending or insisting that a horse [or other animal] had to be seen by a Vet who is known to see Dogs/cats.

                      Michaleenflynn, re: the trials and tribulations of the NYC Carriage horses, yes I know, I've bee reading and commenting in support of the NYC Carriage horses since I learned of it right here on COTH.

                      'The bill that was passed by the NYC Council - which I helped to write - was comprehensive;...

                      The bill had teeth; DoH, ASPCA, and DCA were given new powers regarding each of the above listed, and it was implemented within 90 days.

                      What do you think the response was from the RARAs?

                      They fought it tooth and nail; disparaged it, lied about it, tried every way they could to stop it.

                      Because there IS no middle ground for them.

                      The ASPCA went along with it by remaining silent; '

                      Can you define 'RARA's as you used it above where I bolded, cause I think I may be confused who exactly you are referring to there.
                      Maybe for clarity's sake, instead of using the term RARA we could be specific?
                      Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                      http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
                        The part of the bill about 'a vet known to treat dogs/cats' was in regards to AC finding or needing care for dogs and cats. I did not see that they were recommending or insisting that a horse [or other animal] had to be seen by a Vet who is known to see Dogs/cats.

                        Michaleenflynn, re: the trials and tribulations of the NYC Carriage horses, yes I know, I've bee reading and commenting in support of the NYC Carriage horses since I learned of it right here on COTH.

                        'The bill that was passed by the NYC Council - which I helped to write - was comprehensive;...

                        The bill had teeth; DoH, ASPCA, and DCA were given new powers regarding each of the above listed, and it was implemented within 90 days.

                        What do you think the response was from the RARAs?

                        They fought it tooth and nail; disparaged it, lied about it, tried every way they could to stop it.

                        Because there IS no middle ground for them.

                        The ASPCA went along with it by remaining silent; '

                        Can you define 'RARA's as you used it above where I bolded, cause I think I may be confused who exactly you are referring to there.
                        Maybe for clarity's sake, instead of using the term RARA we could be specific?
                        oh please. 90% of the vets treat dogs and cats. if you don't believe me, try to find a vet for a rabbit or a bird!
                        it's really curious wording, makes no sense. of course if you think there are no holes in the plot...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                          oh please. 90% of the vets treat dogs and cats. if you don't believe me, try to find a vet for a rabbit or a bird!
                          it's really curious wording, makes no sense. of course if you think there are no holes in the plot...
                          Vets in my area who treat horses do not also treat dogs/cats.
                          Vets in my area who treat dog/cats, do not also treat horses. They do treat some exotics incl. rabbits and birds though.
                          Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                          http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Angela Freda View Post
                            Vets in my area who treat horses do not also treat dogs/cats.
                            Vets in my area who treat dog/cats, do not also treat horses. They do treat some exotics incl. rabbits and birds though.
                            Mine too, equine vets treat equines, small animal vets treat small animals. IME the few who cross over and do both are good at neither.

                            Cowgirljenn made some good points, but honestly, I think it was wasted breath (or typed words, in this case). The TFH people like their status as TFH and they're not willing to listen. . The rebuttal seems to be "if you're not with us, you're against us." There's no reasoning with that mind set and after a while, reasonable people can see through it.

                            TFH =- Tin Foil Hat, lacking any other descriptive title. Maybe the Anti-RARAs would be better, but that doesn't fully describe the situation or the attitude either.

                            Comment


                            • The reading of the bill is that dogs and cats require transport to a vet;
                              -while other animals may be euthed on discovery, by the agent on his discretion alone.

                              No vet involved.


                              Clear?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                                The reading of the bill is that dogs and cats require transport to a vet;
                                -while other animals may be euthed on discovery, by the agent on his discretion alone.

                                No vet involved.


                                Clear?

                                That makes it sooo much better.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                  this is from researcher Liz at Black Horse

                                  "AB 1117 gives full authority to humane and peace officers to seize and destroy animals without a warrant."
                                  So per Baldstockings reading of the bill, the first sentence of the OP is not accurate?
                                  Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                                  http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                    Mine too, equine vets treat equines, small animal vets treat small animals. IME the few who cross over and do both are good at neither.

                                    Cowgirljenn made some good points, but honestly, I think it was wasted breath (or typed words, in this case). The TFH people like their status as TFH and they're not willing to listen. . The rebuttal seems to be "if you're not with us, you're against us." There's no reasoning with that mind set and after a while, reasonable people can see through it.

                                    TFH =- Tin Foil Hat, lacking any other descriptive title. Maybe the Anti-RARAs would be better, but that doesn't fully describe the situation or the attitude either.
                                    Are you aware that the HSUS is suing the Beef Association and the Pork Board?
                                    That is the equivalent of them suing the USET, or the AQHA, or AHA, or NCHA.

                                    All those animal rights extremist groups want is to stir the pot and cost anyone that has animals millions defending their rights to have animals.
                                    Then those AR groups will make the best of the disruption in free publicity and telling their myths and propaganda to the general public thru the lawsuits and the publicity that brings them.

                                    All that with money the gullible, clueless public keeps giving them in dribbles and inheritances, thinking they are helping such nice folks that are helping the poor abandoned animals in shelters, millions and millions of dollars a year.

                                    I think it may not be us who is at fault here warning of who those groups are and what they do, but those that are not listening.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                      Are you aware that the HSUS is suing the Beef Association and the Pork Board?
                                      That is the equivalent of them suing the USET, or the AQHA, or AHA, or NCHA.

                                      All those animal rights extremist groups want is to stir the pot and cost anyone that has animals millions defending their rights to have animals.
                                      Then those AR groups will make the best of the disruption in free publicity and telling their myths and propaganda to the general public thru the lawsuits and the publicity that brings them.

                                      All that with money the gullible, clueless public keeps giving them in dribbles and inheritances, thinking they are helping such nice folks that are helping the poor abandoned animals in shelters, millions and millions of dollars a year.

                                      I think it may not be us who is at fault here warning of who those groups are and what they do, but those that are not listening.:(
                                      That's because your message gets confused with the crazy hysteria and some of the over the top conspiracy theories. If people aren't getting the message, usually it's the messenger at fault.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                        That's because your message gets confused with the crazy hysteria and some of the over the top conspiracy theories. If people aren't getting the message, usually it's the messenger at fault.


                                        "oh, you know, they are out to get us, you know. They said so on their convention"
                                        "You are just a crazy hysterical fruit bat"




                                        yep...
                                        conspiracy theories...
                                        You know, it's not paranoid when they really try to get you.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                          That's because your message gets confused with the crazy hysteria and some of the over the top conspiracy theories. If people aren't getting the message, usually it's the messenger at fault.
                                          Are you serious?
                                          There are no conspiracy theories, everyone is presenting facts you can check yourself.
                                          READ THE LINKS, the oh so inconvenient facts are there.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X