• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Is this seller flaky or not?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is this seller flaky or not?

    I am posting this asking advice for a friend. She has not listened to much of my advice regarding this but she has come to me now for help after some of her mistakes nipped her in the butt.

    She goes to purchase young horse. Things are going well but the seller disappears for awhile and is acting flakey. I tell her to move on from the sale because I don't trust this seller. Seller comes back, talks of a family emergency that had happened and everything seems fine again. Friend goes with trainer to see the horse, horse seems great. PPE goes well too.

    Then the contract comes up. While a clause was added giving her the right to take her horse and the right to the papers as soon as the check clears, she didn't put in a trial period. The contract very blatantly favors the seller, and not her. I had warned her about negotiating but it is what it is now.

    If more details are necessary I'll add em, but I'll keep this short and sweet for now:

    * Friend uses my shipper, who I trust with my life.
    * There is a problem, the seller and shipper are unable to get in contact an without the seller confirming the date the shipper won't ship.
    * Friend uses different, less experienced shipper against my advice, shipper has difficulty loading horses.
    * Friend goes back to original shipper and is now working on one final attempt at delivery.

    When the seller did not return the shippers calls until it was too late, she promised that next time she would be on top of it. With the next shipper, she was, but the horse had loading difficulties. The shipper who I trust is telling the friend to be wary of this seller because the excuses weren't adding up (claimed that because it was dark and rainy, that's why the horse wouldn't load, and wanted to reschedule the shipment day because of it might "rain").

    Friend wants to file this as a case in small claims court if the shipment fails again, though I'm not sure she has a case. I think this is very suspicious, but getting more opinions is important.

  • #2
    Maybe I'm confused. First no trial period in the contract. Well of all the horses I've bought I had no trial period in contracts. So idk. Once I did the vet checks and paid and signed the papers horse was mine and that was that. On the right to take the horse back. Is it first right of refusal or is it she can take the horse anytime if she feels its not properly cared for etc. First right of refusal can be common. If she just has she can take the horse back when she feels then no way would I sign that contract. I've heard of people keeping papers until the check clears just to make sure but most sellers I know unless they know the person doesn't release the horse until cash is in hand. So until the check clears etc. Sounds as if person could be flaky for sure and the shipper thing is a little weird. But she just may have bought a horse that's a stinker to load. Did she ask before or see him load before she bought him?
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, seller sounds flaky, or sucks at communicating at the very least, but seems like it's too late now. Lack of a trial period is not unusual though, I know many people who would not let a horse go on trial. If your friend paid for a horse and ultimately does not receive the horse, then sure she has a court case.

      Also, I would make sure the papers ship with the horse. I'm assuming the check has certainly cleared after all that time. If the papers don't come with the horse, I doubt she will ever see them.
      Flickr

      Comment


      • #4
        First of all, many sellers do not offer trial periods. There's nothing flaky or one sided about that.

        Otherwise, I'm not sure there are enough details to make a judgement. Sounds like the horse doesn't load well, that's certainly not a good thing.

        Is the seller trying to refuse to allow the new owner to take possession? Or are they trying to make sure that the next attempt to load and transport the horse is under ideal circumstances since there were issues the first two times? Honestly, unless they are trying to take the buyer's money and keep the horse, there's no benefit for a seller to keep and care for a horse that is already sold any longer than they have to.

        If the horse is bad enough about loading, I could see the buyer considering wanting to back out of the deal even if it meant losing a deposit and the money they spent on the PPE. In that case, unless the seller lied about how the horse loaded and trailered at the time of the sale, I'm not sure the buyer would be entitled to get that money back.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree that the lack of trial is not unusual. In fact there are so many horror stories about horses going on trial that it's amazing they still happen.

          As for the shipping? I'd be annoyed if the seller was unable to connect with my shipper but just because they are flakey, I wouldn't see it as a huge issue.

          Hard to know if the horse not loading was caused by the second shipper or that the horse just isn't good at loading.

          I can't imagine why the buyer would think they had a case for small claims court! There was no "guarantee" in the contract that the horse would get on the trailer and if it was rainy and dark and the horse hasn't been loaded much it could be an issue.

          Heck, I've seen horses that took more than an hour to load -- and these are horses that you KNOW have gotten on trailers before. Experienced shippers generally have a lot of tricks up their sleeves when it comes to loading problem horses, but an animal can assert itself and decide it doesn't want to load.

          If your friend is really concerned, she should be there to supervise the process.
          Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
          EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

          Comment


          • #6
            As others have said, trial periods are not a necessity. A buyer could ask for one, but is not entitled to receive one. You do typically only receive the horse and papers once the cheque has cleared, that's not uncommon. Beyond the weird incident with the shippers and problems loading, I am failing to see what is so problematic about this arrangement. If your friend doesn't receive the horse though she's paid for it (I'm assuming there's a bill of sale involved), then she could take this person to court. Otherwise, this all seems pretty standard and she just happens to be dealing with someone who's a bit more flaky than one may expect or desire.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by rabicon View Post
              Maybe I'm confused. First no trial period in the contract. Well of all the horses I've bought I had no trial period in contracts. So idk. Once I did the vet checks and paid and signed the papers horse was mine and that was that. On the right to take the horse back. Is it first right of refusal or is it she can take the horse anytime if she feels its not properly cared for etc. First right of refusal can be common. If she just has she can take the horse back when she feels then no way would I sign that contract. I've heard of people keeping papers until the check clears just to make sure but most sellers I know unless they know the person doesn't release the horse until cash is in hand. So until the check clears etc. Sounds as if person could be flaky for sure and the shipper thing is a little weird. But she just may have bought a horse that's a stinker to load. Did she ask before or see him load before she bought him?

              I meant that my friend has the right to take the horse off the property at any time of her choosing as soon as the check cleared, not the seller. She did not ask to see the horse load as she didn't think it would be an issue.

              Other people asked similar so I'll clarify below

              Originally posted by furlong47 View Post
              Yes, seller sounds flaky, or sucks at communicating at the very least, but seems like it's too late now. Lack of a trial period is not unusual though, I know many people who would not let a horse go on trial. If your friend paid for a horse and ultimately does not receive the horse, then sure she has a court case.

              Also, I would make sure the papers ship with the horse. I'm assuming the check has certainly cleared after all that time. If the papers don't come with the horse, I doubt she will ever see them.
              I agree. She said the seller was going to ship her the papers, I told her to have the papers handed over with the horse.

              Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post
              First of all, many sellers do not offer trial periods. There's nothing flaky or one sided about that.

              Otherwise, I'm not sure there are enough details to make a judgement. Sounds like the horse doesn't load well, that's certainly not a good thing.

              Is the seller trying to refuse to allow the new owner to take possession? Or are they trying to make sure that the next attempt to load and transport the horse is under ideal circumstances since there were issues the first two times? Honestly, unless they are trying to take the buyer's money and keep the horse, there's no benefit for a seller to keep and care for a horse that is already sold any longer than they have to.

              If the horse is bad enough about loading, I could see the buyer considering wanting to back out of the deal even if it meant losing a deposit and the money they spent on the PPE. In that case, unless the seller lied about how the horse loaded and trailered at the time of the sale, I'm not sure the buyer would be entitled to get that money back.
              The horse only had trouble with loading once.

              The first time around, when the friend used my shipper (who years back shipped my horse, who was a 17H problem loader that was terrified of trailers without much issue and this is a smaller horse) there were communication problems. The shipper called the seller several times a day for 3 days prior to the expected pick-up date trying to confirm. The seller never called him back, claimed to not receive his calls (this shipper is diligent with calls--so I believe him over her). So the horse didn't get delivered. The second time my friend used a less experienced shipper who couldn't get the horse to load.

              The seller said that the horse wasn't loading because it was dark and rainy. The first time around she was hesitant of the expected pick-up date because it might be "muddy". She also tried to complain about the horse shipping alone (it wasn't). If anything, this shipper is being very neurotic about the horse. These are things the shipper has called out to be suspicious.

              I totally want to give the seller the benefit of the doubt here. Maybe she's a genuinely flaky person who's bad at communication. I haven't met her, I've only heard from my friend.

              Edit: I've been using this shipper for nearly ten years. I have never once had a problem with him or known someone who has. That is why I trust him so much.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by tinydragon View Post
                As others have said, trial periods are not a necessity. A buyer could ask for one, but is not entitled to receive one. You do typically only receive the horse and papers once the cheque has cleared, that's not uncommon. Beyond the weird incident with the shippers and problems loading, I am failing to see what is so problematic about this arrangement. If your friend doesn't receive the horse though she's paid for it (I'm assuming there's a bill of sale involved), then she could take this person to court. Otherwise, this all seems pretty standard and she just happens to be dealing with someone who's a bit more flaky than one may expect or desire.
                The check cleared 3 weeks ago.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Does it matter if she's flakey? If I really liked the horse and it vetted clean, assuming I could get it to my place sound after buying it (and maybe there is something wrong with the horse and the seller is stalling), I wouldn't really care if the seller was flakey. Maybe I won't do business with them in the future, but after putting in the time and money to get this horse I'd just deal with it.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Eventer13 View Post
                    Does it matter if she's flakey? If I really liked the horse and it vetted clean, assuming I could get it to my place sound after buying it (and maybe there is something wrong with the horse and the seller is stalling), I wouldn't really care if the seller was flakey. Maybe I won't do business with them in the future, but after putting in the time and money to get this horse I'd just deal with it.
                    Being flakey alone isn't an issue to me. It's more or less than my friend cashed a five figure check almost a month ago and the seller appears to be stalling. That's what I suspect is going on, at least. I agree with you though. It would be a lot more complicated to get a refund than it would to just go with the horse.

                    The horse is good from what I've seen. Trainer says the horse has really great temperament, learns fast, and is in good health. I don't get what the problem is. Horse is young so naturally there are problems loading, but as long as the seller communicates, shipping should go just fine.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Small claims court for what? Unless it says otherwise in the contract it is the buyer's responsibility to get the horse.

                      Honestly, I think both of you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Trial periods are uncommon (and I never advise them - too many things can go wrong). As far as whether or not the seller got the shipper's calls - the shipper may have made the calls and left the messages, but that doesn't mean the seller got the messages. I recently had an issue with my phone and didn't get any messages for almost a week. It happens.

                      Why your friend has allowed the horse to stay with the seller for this amount of time is beyond me. If I were the seller I would not be happy (I wonder if the seller will start a "is this buyer flaky or not" thread?).
                      Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

                      "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How far away is the horse?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm not as suspicious about the seller's behavior, but regardless given the mis-cues so far, a five-figure horse seems worth a car trip or plane ticket to be there when the horse loads, and to make sure the papers are handed over.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HungarianHippo View Post
                            I'm not as suspicious about the seller's behavior, but regardless given the mis-cues so far, a five-figure horse seems worth a car trip or plane ticket to be there when the horse loads, and to make sure the papers are handed over.
                            My thinking exactly. Go. and be there with the shipper, and get the horse. It's not that difficult.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't offer an off-the-farm trial with my horses. This would be doubly true in the case of a young, green horse.

                              As a seller, I would not want to keep a sold horse on my property for any longer than necessary given the care, custody and control issues. I am surprised that the seller didn't work with the horse on loading, like feeding it on the trailer in a non-stressful situation.

                              As for shippers, they can be problematic. Some of them work on crazy schedules so they want to pick-up at 3 a.m. Or they lack the person-power to deal with a difficult loader. I can understand the seller being concerned about conditions like rain or mud.

                              Personally, I would go get the horse myself. Bring lunge lines, lunge whips. chain shanks, blindfolds, food, and plenty of extra people. Have a vet on hand if you need to drug the horse. Then take the horse home and teach it to load when there is no pressure.

                              The shipping is the buyer's problem and the buyer seems flakey to me. Why on earth would you leave a horse for nearly a month over a shipping issue?
                              Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
                              http://www.ironwood-farm.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                1) Make sure horse is insured with friend listed as owner etc

                                2) Make new arrangement with Shipper & either travel with to collect horse or meet Shipper at seller's farm to ensure there are no more delays. An experienced shipper WILL get the horse on the trailer.

                                3) Make sure that papers are delivered/present with horse or shipped certified mail & received before collecting horse.

                                If there really is suspicion of the seller, then ensure that new owner/trainer is there when correct horse is loaded.

                                Mud & rain are absurd excuses to not ship: closed roads, blizzards - those are reasons to delay shipping.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by tempotempo View Post
                                  The check cleared 3 weeks ago.
                                  If the buyer is concerned then she or her agent needs to be there and make sure the horse gets on the trailer. If there have been issues, arrange for a vet to be there with an appropriate sedative.

                                  Unless the seller is refusing to ship the horse (and that doesn't seem to be the case), there's nothing to sue over.
                                  Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                                  EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by tempotempo View Post
                                    Being flakey alone isn't an issue to me. It's more or less than my friend cashed a five figure check almost a month ago and the seller appears to be stalling. That's what I suspect is going on, at least. I agree with you though. It would be a lot more complicated to get a refund than it would to just go with the horse.
                                    Weirdness all the way around.

                                    What "check to clear" and papers held hostage? If this is a 5-figure horse, y'all aren't doing a wire transfer or cashier's check. And I'd always want to see a photocopy of the papers even if we had some deal about those being held or arriving with the horse. You'd be surprised how many sets of papers "get lost" between the signed bill of sale and delivery....

                                    OP, who is feeding the horse while the seller is screwing around?

                                    If the buyer has the right to take possession of the horse at any time, then she can use whatever means she likes to get that done.

                                    Personally, I'd try to just finish this deal as opposed to blowing it up with a "small claims court" brouhaha.... which won't work anyway because the horse's value is too high.
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Yeah. Now it's a five figure horse. Weird that they wrote a check. And no small claims court is not going to get you anywhere near five figures back you'll usually top out at 10k there but usually around 5k is the max for small claims. And when you nswered me above do you mean the seller can only say when horse leaves property or buyer? Still confused this all just sounds weird to me. If I paid five figures for a horse and it's been 3 weeks my butt would be going to wherever the horse is to get him shipped not thinking of small claims court that will do me no good.
                                      Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by tempotempo View Post
                                        The check cleared 3 weeks ago.
                                        If it's been three weeks, then your friend needs to become proactive. This is now your friends horse and her responsibility. She needs to make a day that she can be there, or in the very least, her trainer, and either the seller or someone on the seller's behalf can be present to see the horse off and tie up any loose ends. Placing some phone calls and depending on other people to get things done is clearly not working out to anyones advantage here.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X