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Bill to ban NYC carriages in state committee - NEED YOUR HELP/UPDATE/Post#218

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  • #41
    Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
    Totally confused by SV's breakdown. I clearly do not read the same way SV does because I do not see any of these posts as advertisements for services. Heck, I am guessing very few of COTH membership live in NYC to take advantage of what the OP does for a living.

    SV, just so you know, I live in the heavily regulated state of NY. I am glad people like the OP are out there letting us know what our state is up to this time. I certainly do not have time to keep track of all this stuff. It is helpful when someone lets us all know what they have found out.

    Sending emails to my representatives.

    It's a long standing thing with SV....I mean, it's not only on the carriage threads.

    Not many live up there, but a bunch made it to the big shindig last year
    https://www.facebook.com/ClipClopnyc2012

    But seriously: once you peel the fluff of the bill, you should be shaking in your boot, from Maine to Florida, from New York to California.

    It's not like the nutters have not already stated publicly that this would only be the first step!

    I had been thinking that the OP needs to connect with th Urban cowboys, I think there are some in Brooklyn or the Bronx, not sure...two worlds apart, connected by the common denominator, but I don't think NYCLASS wants to build parking garages out there....

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
      Seems that there is much to hide and quite frankly, these pro carriage horse industry posts tell me many things about an insecure industry that deserves the public hostility.
      Really? Now that is a load of crap. You really must sit and read a newspaper for a while on the white throne.


      I haven't really posted on these threads but have read them. As soon as NYC carriages are banned and replaced they will go on to the next one. One day riding horses will be but a memory in the past....
      Draumr Hesta Farm
      "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
      Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

      Comment


      • #43
        So, sv, are you willing to hand your horse over to HSUS, PETA or some RARA because they don't approve of what you use your horse for? Just take a moment to think if this bill does pass and the tickle down effect that could happen.

        This is not just the carriage industry at stake - it's the horse industry.

        Ever hear of unintentional consequences?

        Comment


        • #44
          I can see SV's point. I've pointed out in the past that the vitriol and nastiness doesn't help the carriage horse cause.

          Comment


          • #45
            In reference to bills S-667 in the Senate and A-997 in the Assembly and the misleading actions of those that want you to support this bill

            My name is Andrea Whiting and I am a professional horseman in the capacity that I have 35 years of experience with horses, I train horses and instruct riders and I manage a stable of 25-30 horses. I have trained a National Champion horse and have also trained top-ten World Champion horses and riders. I feel that I am qualified to speak knowledgeably regarding the subject of horses and their care

            I do not live in New York however I do have family in New York City that I routinely visit and I do enjoy seeing and visiting with the carriage horses in and around Central Park and Times Square.

            There are individuals with ulterior motives that are pushing for your support of Senate bill 667 and Assembly bill 997. These individuals are garnering much support by misleading the people of New York. The majority of New Yorkers have little horse knowledge and they are being exploited into their support of this bill.

            Some of their "claims":

            Horses with cancerous tumors on their legs……in actuality these are chestnuts and all horses have them

            Horses with cuts on the bottom of their hooves…….in actuality these are the “frogs” of the hoof, all horses have them.

            Horses wear blinders to prevent them from being scared of traffic and movement around them……in actuality, blinkers/blinders shield the horse from seeing what is behind him and they pre-date NYC traffic as blinkers/blinders have been in use for thousands of years

            Horses standing and not bearing weight on a leg are lame with orthopedic injuries……..in actuality, horses will cock a hind leg when at rest, they have locking patellae in their hind legs which allow them to sleep standing up and they will rest one leg while locking the other for support and then they will change and rest the other side. This is normal for a horse and is not an indication of anything other than a horse that is comfortable enough in his environment to rest and catch a snooze.

            Horses are depressed………in actuality, horses that are between fares will snooze. Horses have the ability to go into a light sleep and this is done with eyes open. Horses evolved as prey animals and have developed the ability to have a deep rest and retain slight awareness of their surroundings. Wild herds do this where horses are snoozing and a few individuals are awake and can alert the others should danger approach. A snoozing horse on the carriage line is not depressed, he is comfortable enough with his surroundings to feel that he can safely snooze.

            Horses are fed on the dirty pavement……..in actuality horses are fed in buckets and they choose to spill their grain to find their favorite morsels. Horses all around the world do this, even the ones in my barn. In NYC you have pigeons pick up the leftover morsels, on my farm it is the wild turkeys and sandhill cranes that pick up after the sloppy eaters. For what it is worth, the NYC sidewalk is probably cleaner than the dirt and grass in my pasture. I have a lot of wild deer come through so when my horses graze they pick up tapeworms shed from the deer.

            Horses are stabled where they cannot turn around or lie down………in actuality they do have box stalls where they can turn around and lie down, the old “tie stalls” were done away with years ago but the anti-carriage crowd is still showing old photos of tie stalls. Horses are on rubber matted stalls, bedded with soft straw, have mister fans in the summer and also have fire sprinklers in the stables….my National Champion horses don’t have it this good.

            Horses are sold to slaughter or “disappear” when they can no longer work..…..in actuality many of the carriage horses come from the Amish in PA. They are mostly Amish trained to pull carts and handle road traffic. When the carriage horse industry purchases one, the horse is automatically registered with the appropriate city agencies and is given an identifying hoof tattoo, even if only in the city for a few days for testing. If the horse does not pass its city test, it is traded back to the Amish trainer for another horse or sold to carriage operators that do not work in NYC. Once the horse is sold to another person or sent back to the Amish, there is no control over what that other person does with the horse. Trained carriage horses are valuable and are worth more than what their meat would bring if sold by the pound. Horses that have served their time in the city are often retired to the owner’s farms or sent to a retirement facility such as Blue Star Equiculture (the official retirement home for NYC Carriage Horses).

            Horses should not have to be servants of man……..yes, many of the people behind this bill are super-vegans that are against any kind of “exploitation”of animals, even the owning of cats and dogs as pets. Please note the verbiage in the bills that indicate that once the horses are seized from their owners they are no longer to work a single day OF THEIR NATURAL LIVES. These people would rather see these horses euthanized than have to work for mankind. Draft horses are domesticated animals that are bred to work. Labradors retrieve, pointers point, beagles and bloodhounds follow scents, herding dogs herd. Draft horses pull. It is what they are bred to do for hundreds of generations and it is what makes them mentally happy. A working horse that doesn’t work can easily become depressed and suffer health issues from not working.

            Carriage horse drivers and owners should be shot…….in actuality, this truly is the mentality of many of the anti-carriage people. These are the kinds of comments that fly all over their various media and Facebook pages. Heaven forbid you disagree with them or try to correct some of the misinformation they perpetuate. If you disagree with them they end up stalking you online. I have had an anti-carriage person even stalk my horse business and tell my customers that I support horse abuse.

            In closing, if you were to go and take a close look at these horses, you will NOT see harness sores, skinny horses, depressed horses, injured horses or abused horses. What you will find are THE MOST REGULATED HORSES IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. There are many, many regulations that the operators and owners must follow and all paperwork must accompany the driver and horse wherever they are because the ASPCA and other licensing agencies can ask for the paperwork upon any impromptu inspection.

            The carriage horse owners and operators are doing no wrong, yet these bills will seize their horses and put many families out of work. Why should they be banned?

            When I go to San Francisco I ride thetrolleys, when I go to London I ride the double decker busses, when I go to New York City I ride the carriages around Central Park (which was actually developed specifically for horse use). Why put an end to an iconic industry that helps to define your wonderful city because SOME people and misled people do not like it?

            Please do not support S-667 in the Senate and A-997 in the Assembly.

            Thank you for your time and consideration,
            Andrea Whiting
            Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
            Bernard M. Baruch

            Comment


            • #46
              SV, are you Forel herself?? Reading this post, it niggles at the corners of my mind.

              As for the perceived nastiness of the carriage industry, h*ll, I'd be a bit prickly too with all the, IMHO, wackos out chanting and trying to scare customers off. I don't see how they do it, I'd have packed up long ago...or not, depended on whether I got my back up. Even I, out here in the big empty, can see the writing on the wall. CA just passed some bill or law where 'the authorities' have banned how you can sell your horse. Some of the wording is beyond me but that the gist of it. The wording was stuck between two other pieces of legislation and it seems the aides to the legislators missed it and it was passed. My CA horse friends (well, the ones in NorCal) are wigged over it.

              So, yeah, its' on its way...
              GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                I can see SV's point. I've pointed out in the past that the vitriol and nastiness doesn't help the carriage horse cause.
                Thank you. A pubic service announcement: if you disagree with the OP (or her minions) on this board, expect a dressing down, and it won't be nice. Additionally, these threads seem to bring conspiracy theorists out of the woodwork. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with carriage horses in NYC, but won't voice their opinion publically because you would expose yourself to all sorts of nastiness.

                I agree with you. The "carriage industry" would be doing itself a favor if it fired the OP as its spokesperson.

                I don't think carriage horses belong in NYC...there, I said it. And, I'm not some Bambi-loving animal rights activist. Far from it. I don't think banning carriage horses in NYC means that activist are coming after my horses, too. Provoking this type of hysteria in horse owners is just a red herring to try and protect a type of business that probably doesn't belong in the least horse-friendly city in the world.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #48
                  Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                  I can see SV's point. I've pointed out in the past that the vitriol and nastiness doesn't help the carriage horse cause.
                  I'd like for you to please c&p "vitriol and nastiness" from me towards SV on this thread - you cannot, because even AFTER she attacked me, I did not return in kind.

                  As I said earlier in this thread, I have spent HOURS on this board over the last couple of years fielding questions and providing info and proof. The only "nastiness" on my part in the past has been in response to people who raked me over the coals in a decidedly provocative way, or INSISTED on lying about MY business - 2 posters in particular come to mind. I have bent over backwards to accommodate ALL others, because communication is IMPORTANT to me.

                  It's extraordinary that you can say you "see SV's point", when she takes issue with EVERY thread I start or post I make -- even complaining that I don't post on non-carriage threads, and then posting snarky "what's she doing here" posts when I DO. IMO she is certifiably obsessed, and adds NOTHING of substance.

                  Luckily for me, since everything is archived, my assertions here are easily checked. This is the LAST time I will ever address SV's posts, or posts by others about her, and allow her to hijack an important thread.
                  Last edited by michaleenflynn; Feb. 6, 2013, 01:48 PM.
                  VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                    I agree with you. The "carriage industry" would be doing itself a favor if it fired the OP as its spokesperson.
                    I'll pass on your suggestion at our next meeting - but, how do they "fire" a volunteer who doesn't get paid?
                    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                      I don't think carriage horses belong in NYC...there, I said it.
                      There is a very simple answer to this - don't put YOUR horse to a carriage in NYC.
                      These are OUR horses.
                      VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                        Thank you. A pubic service announcement: if you disagree with the OP (or her minions) on this board, expect a dressing down, and it won't be nice. Additionally, these threads seem to bring conspiracy theorists out of the woodwork. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with carriage horses in NYC, but won't voice their opinion publically because you would expose yourself to all sorts of nastiness.

                        I agree with you. The "carriage industry" would be doing itself a favor if it fired the OP as its spokesperson.

                        I don't think carriage horses belong in NYC...there, I said it. And, I'm not some Bambi-loving animal rights activist. Far from it. I don't think banning carriage horses in NYC means that activist are coming after my horses, too. Provoking this type of hysteria in horse owners is just a red herring to try and protect a type of business that probably doesn't belong in the least horse-friendly city in the world.
                        So by your accession anyone who believes that these bills do and will provide great risk to even private horses owners we must be her "minions". Or is that adverb reserved for those of us who have no issue with and in fact support Urban Carriage horses ?

                        Perhaps you should spend a moment of your time reading over the pages created by and inhabited by those promoting the bill. Better yet wander over to W.A.R's page and ask them how they feel about your domestic horses
                        . Or Perhaps take a moment to read the 40 some odd posts on Carriage Horse Cruelty https://www.facebook.com/CarriageHorseCruelty?fref=ts talking about the enslavement and cruelty of the poor Budweiser horses and the foal used in the commercial. You know the one that made us all cry and think of that special horse.

                        "Nora Constance Marinoto answer the question,"what do you think", I think it sucks. It glorifies imprisonment and control. It's designed to make people think, "awww, that's so sweet", when it's NOT. Those clydesdale horses probably live awful lives, confined and traveling most of the time, deprived of everything that is natural for them. The commercial is designed to hide that ugly reality in rose colored sentiment.
                        February 1 at 4:03pm · 1"

                        "Sophia ZeeI found the ad revolting. People CRIED over this? I cry because I know of the real exploitation of lives lived in stalls and for "show".

                        Their tails get cut OFF for one thing. Horses are NOT borng without tails. They do that to make them look even bigger than they are. Never mind a tale is needed to swat flies or make a breeze on a hot day. Disgraceful exploitation of horses just like Carriage Horses are. They horse was NOT REALLY REUNITED with an owner but with "an actor". The horses are probably bottle fed so they can sell the mothers urine for Premarin. (But that is done mostly in other areas and the foals are murdered or sold for slaughter) Yea, some sweet Budweiser add
                        "


                        Go Fish , you don't have to like the idea of carriage horses , it doesn't bother me in the least. I'll bet it doesn't even bother McFlynn. What people shouldn't do is berate them for making their living with their horses ...or insinuate or acuse them of abuse where there is none. What most certainly should not be done is allow a few Radical animal rights groups funded by the likes of PETA and one very rich real estate developer with an agenda ; carte blanche to make up bills that abolish legal businesses and remand that their animals be taken away.
                        Last edited by Lynnwood; Feb. 6, 2013, 02:21 PM.
                        "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                          Thank you. A pubic service announcement: if you disagree with the OP (or her minions) on this board, expect a dressing down, and it won't be nice. Additionally, these threads seem to bring conspiracy theorists out of the woodwork. I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with carriage horses in NYC, but won't voice their opinion publically because you would expose yourself to all sorts of nastiness.
                          I am sorry. I truly am, but I have received much worse on the forum. Incidentally from pretty much the same crowd as SV.

                          I agree with you. The "carriage industry" would be doing itself a favor if it fired the OP as its spokesperson.
                          well, herein lies the problem: A small group of middle class working people are doing the best they can with what they have. I am sure your services would not be turned down, should you offer to donate them.
                          Until then, the blood from the turnip is not forthcoming, somebody has to step up and simply DO the job.

                          I don't think carriage horses belong in NYC...there, I said it. And, I'm not some Bambi-loving animal rights activist. Far from it. I don't think banning carriage horses in NYC means that activist are coming after my horses, too. Provoking this type of hysteria in horse owners is just a red herring to try and protect a type of business that probably doesn't belong in the least horse-friendly city in the world.
                          Well, that is however beside the point, or rather detrimental of the bigger picture.
                          Even looking away you should have heard the murmurs from the ban supporters - this is just the first step.

                          Even glancing over the threads you should have by now gotten at least one eyeful of the wording of the bill.
                          No, you do not have to agree that horses are in the city. True.
                          But: The horses are no more a traffic hazard than anything else on the road in Manhattan. So the justification of banning them from other cities or places does not fit here.

                          The horses are well cared for. Probably better than even yours.
                          How can I be so sure?
                          Well, thy have not 1, but 4 agencies looking over them. One of them wants them shut down.
                          Can you follow? How many people look over your shoulder every day, trying to find a single minute fault?
                          And then lie about it.

                          The horses do light duty. They are bred to pull tons of weight...even fat Americans can't tip the scales that much. A bit of walking, maybe trotting....constant low impact exercise, that is actually good for a horse.

                          Oh, the ban supporters are already eyeballing you.

                          OK, back to the actual problem:
                          The bill.

                          now do read past the part where they make the horses and drivers and such unemployed:
                          The bill clearly states what has to happen with the horses, the owners are not allowed to keep them.

                          The conditions of the change of ownership are outlined

                          the conditions under which the horses are to be kept is outlined

                          You know: Companion animal, no work....natural life....

                          'work' is defined and outlined

                          Now. regardless of how you feel about the OP and her line of business, go re-read the wording of the bill, and substitute your own discipline, your own string of horses there:
                          Now, how does it sit with you being told from somebody who could not tell you the business end of a pitch fork that you
                          a) cannot use your horse anymore
                          b) sell or give it to somebody of their choosing
                          c) get hosed in the deal, because with this bill your valuable property is now a liability.

                          Sure, screw the drivers, who gives a damn...how many are there? 200? Won't even make a dent in the unemployment line.

                          However, unless you really got your head buried, even not liking the business you should see where this is headed.

                          We are not talking about saddle seat trainers soring their horses here. We are talking about people who abide by the laws, do their job, mind their business and yet....

                          When Hickstead died under similar circumstance as Charlie...they said it out loud. They won't stop.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by michaleenflynn View Post
                            I'd like for you to please c&p "vitriol and nastiness" from me towards SV on this thread - you cannot, because even AFTER she attacked me, I did not return in kind.

                            As I said earlier in this thread, I have spent HOURS on this board over the last couple of years fielding questions and providing info and proof. The only "nastiness" on my part in the past has been in response to people who raked me over the coals in a decidedly provocative way, or INSISTED on lying about MY business - 2 posters in particular come to mind. I have bent over backwards to accommodate ALL others, because communication is IMPORTANT to me.

                            It's extraordinary that you can say you "see SV's point", when she takes issue with EVERY thread I start or post I make -- even complaining that I don't post on non-carriage threads, and then posting snarky "what's she doing here" posts when I DO. IMO she is certifiably obsessed, and adds NOTHING of substance.

                            Luckily for me, since everything is archived, my assertions here are easily checked. This is the LAST time I will ever address SV's posts, or posts by others about her, and allow her to hijack an important thread.
                            No nastiness, but even my screen name is disparaged by your minions. How childish is that. My posts explain my position. Your posts are just ridule at me and any one else who disagrees with you. There is also a post of yours making snide comments about my horse when he was diagnosed with a sore back from ill fitting saddles. That is certainly here for those to read. Attack the poster is the tactic, I also agree that you michaleenflynn would be the very last person I would want representing any interest of mine.

                            I have always been forthcoming and direct, I do not personally attack you. You have attacked me everytime I post my opinion on your one sided promotion of your business. And yes, I receive PMs from other posters who would not dare to post something on your NYC Carriage Threads questioning your pro-carriage promotion on here. But this conversation with you is never about creating a dialogue.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I have sent an email to all, asking they NOT support this insanity, and shared on FB asking other horse owners to do the same.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
                                No nastiness, but even my screen name is disparaged by your minions. How childish is that. My posts explain my position. Your posts are just ridule at me and any one else who disagrees with you. There is also a post of yours making snide comments about my horse when he was diagnosed with a sore back from ill fitting saddles. That is certainly here for those to read. Attack the poster is the tactic, I also agree that you michaleenflynn would be the very last person I would want representing any interest of mine.

                                I have always been forthcoming and direct, I do not personally attack you. You have attacked me everytime I post my opinion on your one sided promotion of your business. And yes, I receive PMs from other posters who would not dare to post something on your NYC Carriage Threads questioning your pro-carriage promotion on here. But this conversation with you is never about creating a dialogue.
                                Ok, you should really give it a rest now. You are beginning to sound unstable.

                                You act like a fool and complain when called out on it?

                                Minions? really? Why do you not just ignore the OP. It would work wonders on your blood pressure.

                                You are not trying to engage in a dialog. You are putting her down at every turn. You do stalk her, not the other way around.

                                people can say what they want. but sheesh... have you read the crap the ban supporters put out? anal butt hole plug?

                                Seriously!

                                What is your agenda?
                                If I hate a poster this much I don't read their posts. I am not going around picking fights!

                                No, you can hate carriages.
                                Go forth do it.

                                and still at the end of the day, they are the pawns fighting your battle in the front lines.

                                I dare say, they fall the rest will tumble as well.

                                Go canoe or kayak or something, you are a might tense today.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by michaleenflynn View Post
                                  I'd like for you to please c&p "vitriol and nastiness" from me towards SV on this thread - you cannot, because even AFTER she attacked me, I did not return in kind.

                                  As I said earlier in this thread, I have spent HOURS on this board over the last couple of years fielding questions and providing info and proof. The only "nastiness" on my part in the past has been in response to people who raked me over the coals in a decidedly provocative way, or INSISTED on lying about MY business - 2 posters in particular come to mind. I have bent over backwards to accommodate ALL others, because communication is IMPORTANT to me.

                                  It's extraordinary that you can say you "see SV's point", when she takes issue with EVERY thread I start or post I make -- even complaining that I don't post on non-carriage threads, and then posting snarky "what's she doing here" posts when I DO. IMO she is certifiably obsessed, and adds NOTHING of substance.

                                  Luckily for me, since everything is archived, my assertions here are easily checked. This is the LAST time I will ever address SV's posts, or posts by others about her, and allow her to hijack an important thread.
                                  I didn't say the vitriol and nastiness was towards SV, it was in general...just take a look at this thread. Name calling and worse. I don't mean you specifically, but you and your defenders.

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                    I didn't say the vitriol and nastiness was towards SV, it was in general...just take a look at this thread. Name calling and worse. I don't mean you specifically, but you and your defenders.
                                    My 998 posts on this board over the last two years are "vitriolic and nasty", "in general"? That is simply false - waaaay false. I repeat:

                                    "....The only "nastiness" on my part in the past has been in response to people who raked me over the coals in a decidedly provocative way, or INSISTED on lying about MY business - 2 posters in particular come to mind. I have bent over backwards to accommodate ALL others, because communication is IMPORTANT to me."

                                    Regarding me AND others who respond to belligerent posters - what do you expect, truly? It's absurd to hold us to some kind of lofty moral standard while the snark snipers get a pass, and then cry foul.
                                    VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

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                                    • #58
                                      Let's keep this on topic and ignore the attempt to derail it. Ignore her and she will go away. You are just giving her attention which she is loving every moment of.
                                      Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                                      Bernard M. Baruch

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                                        Let's keep this on topic and ignore the attempt to derail it. Ignore her and she will go away. You are just giving her attention which she is loving every moment of.
                                        Thank you, Am, you are 100% correct, of course.

                                        Your responses to the legislators were awesome, and we are very grateful.
                                        VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                                        https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by michaleenflynn View Post
                                          My 998 posts on this board over the last two years are "vitriolic and nasty", "in general"? That is simply false - waaaay false. I repeat:

                                          "....The only "nastiness" on my part in the past has been in response to people who raked me over the coals in a decidedly provocative way, or INSISTED on lying about MY business - 2 posters in particular come to mind. I have bent over backwards to accommodate ALL others, because communication is IMPORTANT to me."

                                          Regarding me AND others who respond to belligerent posters - what do you expect, truly? It's absurd to hold us to some kind of lofty moral standard while the snark snipers get a pass, and then cry foul.
                                          I didn't say you specifically either. Geez Louise, take it down a notch.

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