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Bill to ban NYC carriages in state committee - NEED YOUR HELP/UPDATE/Post#218

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  • Nobody is slamming Eventing, Laura. She is just pointing out that it is the pot calling the kettle black in this case.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
      Are you serious? You defend carriage horses by slamming eventing? You people really need to get your act together.
      The broad coalition of horsefolk that the carriage industry has cobbled together includes people from just about every discipline, including eventing. We go to great lengths, as Heather did here, to distinctly separate the use of comparisons from "slamming".

      We don't slam any field of horse endeavor; not only because we know what that feels like, but because the learning curve in the "RARAs vs horseworld" battle produces a certain worldview and set of principles.

      BUT we do often use comparative stats and facts to highlight just how safe our industry is, and how well cared for our horses are, ie death and accident rates, stable management, turn out, etc.

      We also, as Heather did here, call out the hypocrites who want to pursue their discipline unfettered while lambasting the carriages, while ignoring the warts of their own field of endeavor.
      VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

      https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

      Comment


      • My current barn is an eventing barn, as was my last barn. I love eventing. No one is slamming eventing – but let’s look at the actual stats:

        Since 2007 approximately 55 horses have died while participating in the sport of eventing. So, in the last five years 55 – that’s FIFTY-FIVE – horses have died while eventing, 22 of them U.S. horses. (http://tinyurl.com/9bhr7t9)

        OTOH, in the last 30 (that’s THIRTY) years there been three carriage horses that have died as a result of collisions with traffic: Chester (1985), Tony (1990) and Spotty (2006). There have been roughly a half dozen other carriage horses who have died while at work in the past 30 (that’s THIRTY) years - most notably Charlie who died of unknown causes in October 2011 (http://tinyurl.com/cwplyk2), Smoothie in 2007 (from head trauma and shock after spooking into a tree due to a snare drum), Juliet in 2007 (colic), Jackie in 1999 (electrocution thanks to ConEd and stray voltage).

        I am in no way minimizing the death of any horse, but this is a remarkable record.
        There is no other riding discipline that can come close – NONE.

        So, it is exactly correct to state that this has nothing to do with the stables. The fact is that Mr. Nislick wants the property on which the stables stand.
        Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

        "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)

        Comment


        • Sent my note in

          Eva - just sent in the following AND passed your info along to the Carriage Driving List


          Please DO NOT SUPPORT S-667 or A-997 – a bill that would prohibit horse-drawn carriages in NYC.

          I am a horsewoman and a person who drives horses for pleasure. I have owned horses since 1969 and have been a member of and served on committees for Hunterdon County Horse & Pony Association, American Driving Society, Carriage Association of America, NJ Horse Council, Gladstone Equestrian Association (I co-managed an international driving competition in NJ in 1985). It would be safe to say I know a bit about horses and driving.

          I have been into the city to see the stables and the horses. I have seen some of the horses at American Driving Society and Carriage Association of America activities. These are NOT horses in trouble, they are horses and their owner/drivers who have jobs in a highly regulated industry. These horses were bred and trained to do this job and they do it very well or they are placed in other homes where they fit better. Contrary to what Miss Forel and her followers tell you, these horses are well cared for and pretty happy with their jobs.

          I strongly suggest you check it out personally before making a serious error with this vote. I KNOW the carriage people would be glad to give you a tour of their facilities at your convenience. How do I know this? Because that is their response whenever they are attacked by their opponents – they call and offer to let you come see for yourself. The anti carriage people put up websites citing much misinformation and when horse people try to post corrections, their responses are deleted and they are banned from participating. They tell you the chestnuts on the horses legs are cancerous tumors rather than a completely natural formation. They tell you there is no ventilation in the stables when there are windows on three sides of the building and mister fans. When we toured the building on a cool enough day that the windows were shut, there was no strong odor in the building – I was impressed. They tell you the horses work in the dead heat and bitter cold, when they know full well a) the city regulates the temperatures they can work in and b) there wouldn’t be any fares out in that weather anyway. They tell you the horses are overworked and beaten down, citing the horses standing on ‘broken legs’ not believing horsefolk who tell them the horse is merely resting a cocked leg, or snoozing while waiting for the next fare. Seriously – do YOU stand at attention all day long or do you cock a hip?

          By the way, one of their inspectors is the ASPCA with a stated plan to close down the business. Neither the ASPCA nor the other inspectors has been able to find anything to cite the stables on for cruelty or bad care. I’d also like to have the horse’s vacation plan. Not that many people are guaranteed at least 5 weeks a year in the country.

          All that is bad enough, but this seriously flawed legislation goes further. It not only bans driving horses in NYC but it takes private property (the horses) and forces the owners to give or sell them to a rescue or other approved person who will never ‘work’ them again – which would include ever riding or driving them again. Seriously? You plan taking the horses from their legal owners without compensation or concern for their care of the animals or forcing those owners to give them away and expect that there is a line of places capable and willing to keep them for their natural lives? Do you know some of these horses are 7 or 8 and horses can live into their 30s? There are no ‘rescues’ with space to retire a horse for 20+ years for free. And why would you want to take a well trained horse used to a lot of personal attention and warehouse him or her somewhere?

          A major concern with this section of the bill is that it can easily be used as a precedent to take other animals from people if some group doesn’t like what you do.

          This is a serious taking of personal property, a closing of small business which have done nothing wrong and just plain wrong. Please oppose S-667 and A-997

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            Originally posted by Drive NJ View Post
            Eva - just sent in the following AND passed your info along to the Carriage Driving List


            Please DO NOT SUPPORT S-667 or A-997 – a bill that would prohibit horse-drawn carriages in NYC.

            I am a horsewoman and a person who drives horses for pleasure. I have owned horses since 1969 and have been a member of and served on committees for Hunterdon County Horse & Pony Association, American Driving Society, Carriage Association of America, NJ Horse Council, Gladstone Equestrian Association (I co-managed an international driving competition in NJ in 1985). It would be safe to say I know a bit about horses and driving.

            I have been into the city to see the stables and the horses. I have seen some of the horses at American Driving Society and Carriage Association of America activities. These are NOT horses in trouble, they are horses and their owner/drivers who have jobs in a highly regulated industry. These horses were bred and trained to do this job and they do it very well or they are placed in other homes where they fit better. Contrary to what Miss Forel and her followers tell you, these horses are well cared for and pretty happy with their jobs.

            I strongly suggest you check it out personally before making a serious error with this vote. I KNOW the carriage people would be glad to give you a tour of their facilities at your convenience. How do I know this? Because that is their response whenever they are attacked by their opponents – they call and offer to let you come see for yourself. The anti carriage people put up websites citing much misinformation and when horse people try to post corrections, their responses are deleted and they are banned from participating. They tell you the chestnuts on the horses legs are cancerous tumors rather than a completely natural formation. They tell you there is no ventilation in the stables when there are windows on three sides of the building and mister fans. When we toured the building on a cool enough day that the windows were shut, there was no strong odor in the building – I was impressed. They tell you the horses work in the dead heat and bitter cold, when they know full well a) the city regulates the temperatures they can work in and b) there wouldn’t be any fares out in that weather anyway. They tell you the horses are overworked and beaten down, citing the horses standing on ‘broken legs’ not believing horsefolk who tell them the horse is merely resting a cocked leg, or snoozing while waiting for the next fare. Seriously – do YOU stand at attention all day long or do you cock a hip?

            By the way, one of their inspectors is the ASPCA with a stated plan to close down the business. Neither the ASPCA nor the other inspectors has been able to find anything to cite the stables on for cruelty or bad care. I’d also like to have the horse’s vacation plan. Not that many people are guaranteed at least 5 weeks a year in the country.

            All that is bad enough, but this seriously flawed legislation goes further. It not only bans driving horses in NYC but it takes private property (the horses) and forces the owners to give or sell them to a rescue or other approved person who will never ‘work’ them again – which would include ever riding or driving them again. Seriously? You plan taking the horses from their legal owners without compensation or concern for their care of the animals or forcing those owners to give them away and expect that there is a line of places capable and willing to keep them for their natural lives? Do you know some of these horses are 7 or 8 and horses can live into their 30s? There are no ‘rescues’ with space to retire a horse for 20+ years for free. And why would you want to take a well trained horse used to a lot of personal attention and warehouse him or her somewhere?

            A major concern with this section of the bill is that it can easily be used as a precedent to take other animals from people if some group doesn’t like what you do.

            This is a serious taking of personal property, a closing of small business which have done nothing wrong and just plain wrong. Please oppose S-667 and A-997
            Positively awesome letter, Drive, and thank you for crossposting, lots of eyeballs over there!

            If you get any feedback/questions that I can help with, just let me know!
            VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

            https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TheBarnRules View Post
              Because Elizabeth Forel and her "minions" have no intention of stopping with the urban carriage horses:

              Elizabeth Forel, No Walk in Park, Facebook, February 7, 2013 (http://tinyurl.com/bax44n7):

              “The other side has lied about our intentions trying to build up support saying that we want to shut down all carriage horse operations (not true - we are focused on NYC and other urban areas), horse riding and basically anything to do with animals. JUST URBAN CARRIAGE HORSE OPERATIONS!”


              Elizabeth Forel, 9:56 am on Saturday, December 17, 2011 (http://tinyurl.com/9jlwqty):

              NYC will be the domino for the beginning of the end of horse abusive industries all over the world.
              Just to further support the above statement for those who choose not to see the writing on the barn.

              This was passed in Israel is set to become the first Nation to ban horse/donkey carts and carriages.
              http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...les-from-roads

              That notion was pressed by this group : http://www.chai.org.il/en/home/e_index.htm

              Who clearly state in their mission page
              " Nevertheless, we believe that all animal exploitation must ultimately be abolished and not merely regulated."

              Well LOOKY LOOKY WHO IS EVEN QUOTED IN SUPPORT OF THEIR PAGE AND MISSION.

              People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) President, Ingrid Newkirk, emphasized that "inhumane and dangerous conditions cannot be corrected with regulation; this ban is the only solution." Elizabeth Forel, President of Horses Without Carriages International, noted the success of coalition members in focusing media attention on this worldwide problem and in gaining the support of numerous celebrities. Besides Hakol Chai in Israel, the global coalition of groups and individuals includes active members in many U.S. and Canadian cities and in international cities including Dublin, Florence, Rome and Vienna.


              Oh and take a good damn hard look at who is sitting on their board in support of them.
              CHAI's Advisory Board
              CHAI's Israel-American Advisory Board includes:
              Eva Berriman, BVSc (Veterinarian, author, teacher and developer of horse welfare courses)
              Holly Cheever, DVM (Vice President of the New York State Humane Association, Vice President of the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights, humane educator and award-winning animal-cruelty investigator)
              Murry Cohen, MD (Co-Chair of the Medical Research Modernization Committee)
              Paula Kislak, DVM (President of the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights)
              Rabbi David Rosen (International Director of Interreligious Relations, American Jewish Committee, former Chief Rabbi of Ireland and former Dean of the Pinchas Sapir Center for Jewish Education and Culture, Jerusalem)
              Jessica Sandler (Director, Regulatory Testing Division, Research and Investigations Department, PETA: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)
              Richard H. Schwartz, PhD (Professor Emeritus, Mathematics, The City University of New York, author of Judaism and Vegetarianism, Judaism and Global Survival, Mathematics and Global Survival)
              Sheila Schwartz, EdD (Chairperson, NYC United Federation of Teachers' Humane Education Committee)
              Advisory Board members until their deaths:
              Cleveland Amory
              , Rabbi Sidney Jacobs, Congressman Tom Lantos, and Nobel Laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer


              CHAI's Founding Director is Nina Natelson.






              "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
                Just to further support the above statement for those who choose not to see the writing on the barn.

                This was passed in Israel is set to become the first Nation to ban horse/donkey carts and carriages.
                http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...les-from-roads

                That notion was pressed by this group : http://www.chai.org.il/en/home/e_index.htm

                Who clearly state in their mission page
                " Nevertheless, we believe that all animal exploitation must ultimately be abolished and not merely regulated."

                Well LOOKY LOOKY WHO IS EVEN QUOTED IN SUPPORT OF THEIR PAGE AND MISSION.

                People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) President, Ingrid Newkirk, emphasized that "inhumane and dangerous conditions cannot be corrected with regulation; this ban is the only solution." Elizabeth Forel, President of Horses Without Carriages International, noted the success of coalition members in focusing media attention on this worldwide problem and in gaining the support of numerous celebrities. Besides Hakol Chai in Israel, the global coalition of groups and individuals includes active members in many U.S. and Canadian cities and in international cities including Dublin, Florence, Rome and Vienna.


                Oh and take a good damn hard look at who is sitting on their board in support of them.
                CHAI's Advisory Board
                CHAI's Israel-American Advisory Board includes:
                Eva Berriman, BVSc (Veterinarian, author, teacher and developer of horse welfare courses)
                Holly Cheever, DVM (Vice President of the New York State Humane Association, Vice President of the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights, humane educator and award-winning animal-cruelty investigator)
                Murry Cohen, MD (Co-Chair of the Medical Research Modernization Committee)
                Paula Kislak, DVM (President of the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights)
                Rabbi David Rosen (International Director of Interreligious Relations, American Jewish Committee, former Chief Rabbi of Ireland and former Dean of the Pinchas Sapir Center for Jewish Education and Culture, Jerusalem)
                Jessica Sandler (Director, Regulatory Testing Division, Research and Investigations Department, PETA: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)
                Richard H. Schwartz, PhD (Professor Emeritus, Mathematics, The City University of New York, author of Judaism and Vegetarianism, Judaism and Global Survival, Mathematics and Global Survival)
                Sheila Schwartz, EdD (Chairperson, NYC United Federation of Teachers' Humane Education Committee)
                Advisory Board members until their deaths:
                Cleveland Amory
                , Rabbi Sidney Jacobs, Congressman Tom Lantos, and Nobel Laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer


                CHAI's Founding Director is Nina Natelson.







                I think I just threw up...

                Ok...now, wht was that with tinfoil and Chicken Little?
                Originally posted by BigMama1
                Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                GNU Terry Prachett

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
                  Just to further support the above statement for those who choose not to see the writing on the barn.

                  This was passed in Israel is set to become the first Nation to ban horse/donkey carts and carriages.
                  http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...les-from-roads

                  That notion was pressed by this group : http://www.chai.org.il/en/home/e_index.htm

                  Who clearly state in their mission page
                  " Nevertheless, we believe that all animal exploitation must ultimately be abolished and not merely regulated."

                  Well LOOKY LOOKY WHO IS EVEN QUOTED IN SUPPORT OF THEIR PAGE AND MISSION.

                  People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) President, Ingrid Newkirk, emphasized that "inhumane and dangerous conditions cannot be corrected with regulation; this ban is the only solution." Elizabeth Forel, President of Horses Without Carriages International, noted the success of coalition members in focusing media attention on this worldwide problem and in gaining the support of numerous celebrities. Besides Hakol Chai in Israel, the global coalition of groups and individuals includes active members in many U.S. and Canadian cities and in international cities including Dublin, Florence, Rome and Vienna.


                  Oh and take a good damn hard look at who is sitting on their board in support of them.
                  CHAI's Advisory Board
                  CHAI's Israel-American Advisory Board includes:
                  Eva Berriman, BVSc (Veterinarian, author, teacher and developer of horse welfare courses)
                  Holly Cheever, DVM (Vice President of the New York State Humane Association, Vice President of the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights, humane educator and award-winning animal-cruelty investigator)
                  Murry Cohen, MD (Co-Chair of the Medical Research Modernization Committee)
                  Paula Kislak, DVM (President of the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights)
                  Rabbi David Rosen (International Director of Interreligious Relations, American Jewish Committee, former Chief Rabbi of Ireland and former Dean of the Pinchas Sapir Center for Jewish Education and Culture, Jerusalem)
                  Jessica Sandler (Director, Regulatory Testing Division, Research and Investigations Department, PETA: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)
                  Richard H. Schwartz, PhD (Professor Emeritus, Mathematics, The City University of New York, author of Judaism and Vegetarianism, Judaism and Global Survival, Mathematics and Global Survival)
                  Sheila Schwartz, EdD (Chairperson, NYC United Federation of Teachers' Humane Education Committee)
                  Advisory Board members until their deaths:
                  Cleveland Amory
                  , Rabbi Sidney Jacobs, Congressman Tom Lantos, and Nobel Laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer


                  CHAI's Founding Director is Nina Natelson.







                  Nah...conspiracy...Ya Tin Foil Hat Lover?...proof...proof...we demand proof...

                  Here it is...take a look at the boards.....DeFhr is on the Maryland Horse Council Board amonst others.

                  Look at the Vegans on this board...

                  When I posted this link to Watch regarding Paula..

                  http://humanewatch.org/index.php/peo.../paula_kislak/

                  lovey and her buddies who claim they are not Rara's immediately went on the attack against Watch and THEIR agenda..

                  Paula is very active with Wayne Pacelle's wife at the L.A. office for HSUS. and when you read the link with her equal to humans views...well...you get the picture. And, here she is on yet another board...

                  Back at the COTH ranch, we have individuals who will donate money to HSUS affiliates and others who defend them...all the while claiming they don't want to take our horses away..."why...HSUS HAS STAFF who just wuv their little horsies"...to me that is equivalent to saying "my best friend is a Jew" and then donating money to the Red Dawn Neo Nazi Political Party in Europe.

                  You can't have it both ways.
                  The Elephant in the room

                  Comment


                  • Jessica Sandler has been lying about numbers going back to this article in 2008. Anyone who meets her confirms my opinion of her that she is like the German radicals who were bombing for ALF...very very dangerous.

                    http://blogs.nature.com/news/2008/07...schenbach.html

                    The information is out there. It is valid and "old" articles should not be discounted as they usually define with clarity what the person and the groups truly stand for...before they have started to wear the cloak of respectability
                    The Elephant in the room

                    Comment


                    • Any news?

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        Thanx for asking, skydy. Nothing yet....
                        VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                        https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

                        Comment


                        • Yanno, quite a while back, I was working in a feed store and some lady came in spouting stuff about speciesism (is that the correct spelling?). I thought she was funny and joking about. Several of us had a good laugh.

                          I'm thinking it may not be so funny after all.
                          GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                          Comment

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