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Bill to ban NYC carriages in state committee - NEED YOUR HELP/UPDATE/Post#218

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  • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
    I suspect SV has a personal vendetta against a couple of people on this thread.
    pretty much only one.
    And everybody who calls her out on it.
    Originally posted by BigMama1
    Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
    GNU Terry Prachett

    Comment


    • Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
      That was my point, I should start threads on a public board where I ask people from all over to support my business. Which is what the VP of the NYC Carriage Industry does on a regular basis.

      You really don't get it?? Really??


      No, I don't benefit from shooting treed animals nor do I benefit from Not shooting treed animals in my line of work. You brought up new Cal. hunting laws that were somehow a "taking of people's rights" to use dogs in hunting. I explained what the law actaully was for, the banning of hunting with "packs of dogs for bear and bobcat" since the packs are trained to chase the bears and bobcats and usually tree the animal so that the hunter can walk over and shoot the treed animal. I don't see it as taking away the right to hunt with dogs. Many people still do for other animals.
      Uh, yeah, it does. Because it starts with packs of dogs treeing a bear and then the law heads off to other forms of hunting. For the record, I don't care for treeing anything to shoot it, but I am in favor of hunting in and of itself. It's a nose of the camel under the tent edge sort of deal. I'm making a prediction, watch for other forms of hunting of animals to be banned in the future, maybe not too long either.

      Same thing as the carriage 'problem', this has started and with the internet all the quotes of the HSUS and whomever else can be compiled to show there is a path they are following to ban ANY horse from 'working'. It's taking a bit because people won't go for it all at once, but a bit at a time.
      Last edited by goneriding24; Feb. 10, 2013, 03:40 PM. Reason: .
      GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Originally posted by Plainandtall View Post
        My letter:

        I write to ask you to oppose S667-2013. I am a resident of Indiana, a lifelong horsewoman and have worked with commercial carriage horses since 1988, in Philadelphia, Cincinnati and Indiana. There are several aspects of this bill which are deeply troubling, most notably section 4 concerning the disposition of licensed carriage horses.

        While it is reasonable to have regulations concerning the transfer of ownership of a licensed horse between business owners both operating under NYC regulations, setting a given amount of time for an agency to be notified of a change in information connected to an already licensed horse. There is no reason why any agency should have jurisdiction about the transfer of ownership of a horse or have access to private information about any future owner of that animal. These horses are private property; they have a value, both as an individual, and an investment. The horse’s owner is the only person who has a right and responsibility to transfer ownership to who they choose and on what terms as long as those uses are legal. If it is legal for any horseman in New York State to sell a horse without regulation, it is unconstitutional to target only owners, or future owners, of licensed carriage horses for these restrictions.

        We do not make laws which don’t apply to or protect all people equally. It is un-American to devalue the personal investment in these highly trained horses by mandating that they only go to sanctuaries or homes where they are pasture pets- that using them for the purposes they were bred and trained would not only be illegal, but inhumane. This bill proposes to define what is a “humane manner” to transfer ownership of a horse and by omission- it deems all other methods and homes inhumane.

        If a given activity is legal, for example- to plow a garden with a horse, it should not be illegal to sell a horse to a person who intends to plow a garden with him. If plowing a garden is such a troublesome occupation - then plowing gardens with horses must be outlawed. How can garden plowing, and any and every other use of a horse, remain legal if it is written into legislation that it is inhumane?

        If passed , section 4 of S667-2013 deems virtually all horse use inhumane while at the same time the state would be overseeing and profiting from race tracks and using horses in Police and Park service. Will we no longer see any horses pulling floats in Parades, will the plow horses at the living history farms also be seized and never again allowed to work? There are only about 200 carriage horses in New York City, but New York State is home to a population of about 15,000 Amish people- will they be regulated as well? What possible justification could the Senate have to place such restrictions on such a very small portion of the horse owners of New York, while at the same time- deeming virtually all productive, agricultural, educational and recreational use of horses to be inhumane.

        If the state determines that they have the right to mandate the seizure and disuse of these privately owned and well trained horses, is that the precedent? - The state could mandate that no horse is ever used for its bred purpose or training?
        Plain, this is just outstanding. Cannot thank you enough for the effort.
        Exceedingly well-written, knowledgeable, fact-based letters like yours and others posted on this thread will stand in stark contrast to the regurgitated, handwringing talking points of the RARAs' emails, who have actually been told what to say; I have no doubt the letters generated on this thread will make a difference.
        VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

        https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

        Comment


        • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
          Why should I support something that I think would be better restricted to a park?
          Because Elizabeth Forel and her "minions" have no intention of stopping with the urban carriage horses:

          Elizabeth Forel, No Walk in Park, Facebook, February 7, 2013 (http://tinyurl.com/bax44n7):

          “The other side has lied about our intentions trying to build up support saying that we want to shut down all carriage horse operations (not true - we are focused on NYC and other urban areas), horse riding and basically anything to do with animals. JUST URBAN CARRIAGE HORSE OPERATIONS!”


          Elizabeth Forel, 9:56 am on Saturday, December 17, 2011 (http://tinyurl.com/9jlwqty):

          NYC will be the domino for the beginning of the end of horse abusive industries all over the world.
          Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

          "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)

          Comment


          • For SV and anyone else that has trouble equating these bills to other equine facets simply as earlier provided follow the hunting bills.

            It starts with NO canned huts , then progresses once there is a toe hold to , no hunting on acreage less then xyz, then no hunting with dogs on acreage less then xyz, then no hunting with dogs in enclosures of any size , then no hunting with dogs, then no hunting.

            Remember folks shit rolls down hill.
            "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
              Everyone needs to decide what they want for their own state and communities. I have stated this before....Having random people on COTH & facebook advocating for local (inclusive of state) businesses is not right.

              Clear enough ?
              As far as I know, you are not a Moderator on COTH and, as a matter of fact, a Moderator has posted in this thread and stated that the original post was fine and within guidelines. If you don't like the COTH rules, you are free to start your own board.

              Clear enough?
              Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

              "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
                For SV and anyone else that has trouble equating these bills to other equine facets simply as earlier provided follow the hunting bills.

                It starts with NO canned huts , then progresses once there is a toe hold to , no hunting on acreage less then xyz, then no hunting with dogs on acreage less then xyz, then no hunting with dogs in enclosures of any size , then no hunting with dogs, then no hunting.

                Remember folks shit rolls down hill.
                I don't buy that argument for carriage horses just as I don't buy that argument for gun control. Same argument, and I have no respect for either. Allowing a ban on hunting treed animals, does not and will not allow a ban on hunting. I keep hearing that a ban on pleasure horses is going to happen and after many years it still has not even been proposed. The slippery slope argument can be made about anything, and the person stating it does not have to prove anything.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
                  I don't buy that argument for carriage horses just as I don't buy that argument for gun control. Same argument, and I have no respect for either. Allowing a ban on hunting treed animals, does not and will not allow a ban on hunting. I keep hearing that a ban on pleasure horses is going to happen and after many years it still has not even been proposed. The slippery slope argument can be made about anything, and the person stating it does not have to prove anything.

                  because people fight tooth and nail to keep laws as the one in question to go on the books.
                  Originally posted by BigMama1
                  Facts don't have versions. If they do, they are opinions
                  GNU Terry Prachett

                  Comment


                  • Rodeos are already capitulating to demands of HSUS and PETA. Big Big Mistake. Starts with Chuck wagon racing going around barrels and then onto the track. Now they reduce the number of barrels. No Big thing...then they reduce the number of outriders from four to two. NOW they want 2 teams pulling to be one team. They have also suggested that it is abusive as the TB's pulling have broken legs..therefore it should be banned.

                    A rep actually told Denver Livestock that maybe it could be reduced to an EXCITING two people pulling a little wagon with people cheering then on.

                    When I was hired to work for PETA underground I warned them (rodeo associations) fifteen years ago...do NOT give one inch.

                    Sadly, I may actually live to see the rodeo outlawed.
                    The Elephant in the room

                    Comment


                    • We still have plenty of rodeos in my area of California. So you can always come to California to watch a rodeo.

                      Comment


                      • Just sent my email.
                        My CANTER cutie Chip and IHSA shows!
                        http://www.youtube.com/kheit86

                        Comment


                        • Sent a short email that went something like this, "As an occasional visitor to New York City, one of the highlights of my trip is a carriage ride through Central Park. Now I have heard that there is legislation pending to ban horse drawn carriages. Please vote against this legislation. I have always found the horses healthy, well cared-for, and the drivers friendly and polite. Central Park is beautiful, and would not be the same without the horse drawn carriages."
                          It's 2017. Do you know where your old horse is?

                          www.streamhorsetv.com -- website with horse show livestream listings and links.

                          Comment


                          • Sadly your extrapolation is faulty. They will try and gain success with ONE NRA rodeo...then they go after NRA. After they target that group they will go after the livestock producers. Those guys are already very very concerned.

                            Small rodeos store the stock in pens behind the center field. At night they have fireworks. Especially on the Fourth of July. There is a movement to have at l3east 1 mile separation from the stock. It is only in the planing stage but it will eventually gain a foothold. Ideological fanatics have many lifetimes where as ours is just that...ours...and maybe an immediate family who believe in livestock ownership.
                            The Elephant in the room

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              Originally posted by pony4me View Post
                              Sent a short email that went something like this, "As an occasional visitor to New York City, one of the highlights of my trip is a carriage ride through Central Park. Now I have heard that there is legislation pending to ban horse drawn carriages. Please vote against this legislation. I have always found the horses healthy, well cared-for, and the drivers friendly and polite. Central Park is beautiful, and would not be the same without the horse drawn carriages."
                              To the point and sincere, counters the negative propaganda - really, these letters couldn't be better
                              Thank you so much, Pony!
                              VP Horse & Carriage Association of NYC

                              https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-F...ref=ts&fref=ts

                              Comment


                              • I am a horse drawn carriage driver in Texas. I have been doing this for 18 years and have owned my own horse and carriage for 16 years. To me, this is such a rewarding job. As an equestrian, I enjoy the bond between myself and any horse I have driven. They all have different personalities and to get to know each one has been an asset in my life. But, having the same horse for 16 years and knowing the type of partnership we have, is the most rewarding thing I have ever done with horses in my lifetime. I especially enjoy sharing my horse with all the "city" folk who never get a chance to get near a horse, much less touch one. How many kids see horses on the TV or in books, but never get to be near one? Maybe one of those kids that touches my horse will grow up to be a horseperson of some kind. They don't have to be carriage drivers. Without the kids of today, the horse has no future.

                                Because I work with horses, I am able to afford them. I don't get rich from driving a carriage, as I put most of what I make back into them, but it does allow me the chance to own and enjoy them. It also allows me to take care of them the best way I know how. One of the things I find pride in is for people to tell me how healthy my horse looks. My horse is now 21 years old. He only works 2 or 3 days a week and he enjoys it. When I go out to get him for work, he meets me where his halter hangs. When I ask him to get in the trailer, I put the lead rope over his back and he jumps in the trailer on his own. When I go to harness him and put the collar over his head, he pushes to help me. When I go to put the bridle on, he is mouthing to get the bit. My horse loves to work and he loves the attention that he gets.

                                Another thing I love is the happiness that we bring when we do a wedding proposal, a wedding or just a ride through the city. When we are moving, people are ALWAYS taking our photo.

                                What frustrates me, is the anti-carriage/horse people. You have people that know absolutely NOTHING about horses trying to dictate what is best for them. Until I actually owned a horse, I thought I knew about them but soon realized I had no clue. Luckily, I had some people who turned out to be very good friends guiding me along and were patient with me when I was asking a lot of dumb questions. I was willing to learn and be educated by going to all sorts of clinics and events.

                                I also worked for one of the premier Friesian dressage/competition driving farms in the USA for years. That farm is no longer there, but I can't tell you how much I learned from working there and the awesome horse people I got to meet.

                                I am not saying, I know it all. There is so much to learn where horses are concerned. That is one thing I love about horses, you learn something new every day.

                                The anti-carriage people think that horses are like dogs. People, these are two different species! They are nothing alike. One of the posts on one of their boards cracked me up when they wanted people to wear straw hats to give to the horses to eat. Or to take a frisbee and water to give them a drink. Just these two things right there prove that they have no clue what they are talking about.

                                I have dealt with PETA in cities I have worked. When you try to educate them about the horses they know nothing about or invite them to the barn to actually see how the horses live, they never come to see how they actually live, they only want to spout their speculation and lies of how they "think" they live.

                                I don't like the show world in some breeds. Some of those horses are either in stalls or in the ring. They never get turned out, even though there is space, for fear the horse will get hurt. I also don't like barrel racing or a lot of western stuff. Those long shank bits in the wrong hands make me crazy. Do I protest against this? No, and you know why? A saying we have in Texas is that it is NUNYA. None of ya business. It is not my horse and the owners can do as they please. I don't think I would treat a horse this way with the type of shoeing, etc., but it is none of my business as I choose not to be involved in that discipline.

                                i have been on the anti-carriage pages, trying to educate them about horses in general only to have had my posts removed and me banned. They don't want to know the truth. They don't want to know that these horses get the best possible hay and feed. They don't want to know that I spend about $200 every six weeks getting my horse shod. I don't spend $200 a year on shoes for myself. In fact, I spend a lot more on my horses than I do on myself. I have gone without when things got tough so that my horses did not suffer. That is what we do.

                                I also realize that if the carriage business ever gets banned in NYC, it is just a matter of time before it will sweep through the rest of the USA. The carriage business in NYC has been a business for over a hundred years. They are the most regulated horses in the country. And, the reason the anti-carriage people have to make up lies is because they can not catch the drivers or owners in abuse because what they don't understand is that abuse probably does not exist. These horses are our "bread and butter" so why would we abuse them? It makes no sense.

                                Like I said, just because you think something is cruel doesn't mean that it is. Kind of like training of horses. There are a thousand ways to get the same result. Every horse and every person is different. You have to do what is best for you and your horse. And, just because someone does something that you don't approve of, or do it a way that you would not, does not make it wrong. It just makes it different.

                                I fully appreciate every email that has been sent from this board about the NY regulations. If someone tries to take my horse, it will be over my dead body! I have told this organization that I will do whatever I can to help them even though I am in Texas and in turn, Eva and several people there have helped me when I needed them.

                                Sorry to ramble so long, but it took a long time to read 17 pages of this BS when all was asked was help to stop a stupid regulation.

                                And, yes, I guess you could call me a "minion". If you knew me, you would know that I am really nobody's minion unless I want to be.

                                Comment


                                • No the area I live in has no issues with rodeos. I think predicting the future belongs to the those that don't live in the present.

                                  Sorry, I don't buy the "slippery slope" our future is at risk. You are welcome to come to our California rodeos, I have a girlfriend that goes just for the "mutton busting". Livestockis alive and well here in California.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
                                    No the area I live in has no issues with rodeos. I think predicting the future belongs to the those that don't live in the present.

                                    Sorry, I don't buy the "slippery slope" our future is at risk. You are welcome to come to our California rodeos, I have a girlfriend that goes just for the "mutton busting". Livestockis alive and well here in California.
                                    http://tucsoncitizen.com/tucson-tail...nimal-cruelty/

                                    http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000414

                                    A quick overview of some of organizations the believe rodeo's to be cruel in CA and are in support of momentum to ban them.
                                    PETA
                                    HSUS
                                    ASPCA
                                    Animal Rights Direct Action Coalition/San Francisco, CA
                                    Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights/Davis, CA
                                    The California Animal Defense & Anti-Vivisection League, Inc./Gardena, CA
                                    California Lobby for Animal Welfare
                                    East Bay Animal Advocates/Martinez, CA www.eastbayanimaladvocates.org
                                    Engineers and Scientists for Animal Rights/Silicon Valley, CA www.esar-online.com
                                    In Defense of Animals/Mill Valley, CA www.idausa.org
                                    Seeds for Change Humane Education/LaJolla, CA
                                    San Diego Animal Advocates/San Diego, CA
                                    Orange County People for Animals/Orange County, CA www.ocpausa.org
                                    No Voice Unheard/Santa Cruz, CA www.novoiceunheard.org
                                    League for Earth and Animal Protection/Sherman Oaks, CA www.LEAPnonprofit.org
                                    L
                                    ast Chance for Animals/Los Angeles, CA www.lcanimal.org
                                    Last Chance for Animals San Diego
                                    http://stoptherodeo.org/
                                    http://aldf.org/article.php?id=2171
                                    http://www.redwoods.edu/instruct/jjo...mwithrodeo.htm
                                    San Francisco, California prohibits rodeos.
                                    Irvine , CA Banned Rodeos
                                    http://www.causes.com/actions/169383...tock-at-rodeos
                                    ** ACTION ALERT – CITY OF ALISO VIEJO , CA PROPOSED ORDINANCE WOULD BAN RODEOS, CIRCUSES AND THE RETAIL SALE OF CATS AND DOGS. The Aliso Viejo City Council is considering an ordinance will take away rights of the citizens in Aliso Viejo to choose where they purchase pets as well as what entertainment options they choose for their families. Please read and take action, while you may not live in Aliso Viejo, this sets a dangerous precedent and when one City passes such bad legislation, animal rights activists push it in other Cities. The City Council will read the ordinance for the first time on Tuesday, May 2, 2012. Here is a link to the agenda:http://www.cityofalisoviejo.com/Port...05-02-2012.pdf The language relating to rodeos:
                                    SECTION 7. Section 6.02.130, to be entitled “Prohibition on rodeos and similar events,” is hereby added to the Aliso Viejo Municipal Code to read in its entirety as follows: ”6.02.130 Prohibition on rodeos and similar events. No person shall sponsor, conduct, operate, or participate in a rodeo or similar event on public or private property within the City of Aliso Viejo . May 2, 2012**

                                    Now what were you saying about the security of rodeo in your state SV??
                                    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                                    Comment


                                    • Thank you Lynnwood for making my point. Rodeo is alive and well despite all of the noise posted in your posts. That is my point, despite all of the "enemies of the horseworld" rodeos happen every year at the same time and place like clockwork.

                                      The sky only seems to be falling around the same posters telling the same story. Reality, well that is a different tune....lots of rodeos....

                                      Comment


                                      • Really, SV, I have my prediction above. Sit back and watch, I'll be right.

                                        Folks, I don't know if it's important or not whether SV believes any of this or not. I suspect you could put live info in front of him/her and you'd still get the 'everything is fine' routine. My advice to MF and anyone else, just ignore from now on anything relating to the above. Just because someone posts whatever, doesn't mean you have to jump back at them, especially given the history already on this board.
                                        GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
                                          Really, SV, I have my prediction above. Sit back and watch, I'll be right.

                                          Folks, I don't know if it's important or not whether SV believes any of this or not. I suspect you could put live info in front of him/her and you'd still get the 'everything is fine' routine. My advice to MF and anyone else, just ignore from now on anything relating to the above. Just because someone posts whatever, doesn't mean you have to jump back at them, especially given the history already on this board.
                                          I see no proof to your predictions, just babbling predictions. Again, in case this thought was missed, those that are predicting the future have no proof just talk. I still have my two horses and no one has come to cart them away, even though some people on this board tell me "any day peta and hsus will be there to take my horses from me"......Still waiting......Rodeos are still scheduled....Talk talk...nothing else...

                                          Comment

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