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Bill to ban NYC carriages in state committee - NEED YOUR HELP/UPDATE/Post#218

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  • Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
    I agree Laura call it a moment of "you've got to be kidding me" frustration.

    Post 13 of this thread, and then the resulting off topic debate for 13 pages on weather we are meanie heads ..finally back on track and then the very next NOT even carriage related post McFlynn makes and we are right back to the same square.

    I can say ^^^ using SV as an example THAT is the very nonsense minus the vulgarity , physical assault and pervasiveness of what the industry deals with daily.
    Oh my, having to reads posts that don't agree with your pro-carriages opinions must be so exhausting. Now THAT is funny ! "Meanie heads" no just name calling , rude, posters who are threatened anytime a poster is not pro-carriage. I guess we all can see how difficult it is for you and the other pro-carriage minions to live in this world of differing opinions. Too funny !

    Comment


    • SV, I already defended you, but clearly you are unable to give it up. I'm done. Sigh.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by michaleenflynn View Post
        Just don't point them back toward the passengers on the night shift
        Originally posted by Lynnwood View Post
        The carriage horse version of Candid Camera. Can you imagine besides the Antis what else those cameras would catch in NYC ;p
        LOL, I had not even considered the back seat....

        I need to go out more!

        Comment


        • SV..what is your solution? Do you agree with the proposed taking of the horses with no recourse or financial renumeration? Where are these sactuaries that are going to assume responsibility? Have you inspected their facilities and checked out their financial viability?

          Since this is promoted by the land developer, perhaps he should be held financially accountable. Posting a million dollar bond and also provoding twenty years of care up front would give him the result he wants. According to dEFHR it takes $2500 to $3500 PER MONTH PER HORSE to "properly" care for them.

          That is only $8,400,000 per year for 200 horses 210 MILLION for twenty five years of care (average lifespan)

          How about those against (the abusive group in NYC and the developer ) put up the money first..

          Before anyone disputes the $3500.00 per month per horse..that comes from dEFHR..and we all know..they wouldn't lie.
          The Elephant in the room

          Comment


          • Everyone needs to decide what they want for their own state and communities. I have stated this before....Having random people on COTH & facebook advocating for local (inclusive of state) businesses is not right.

            Clear enough ?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
              Everyone needs to decide what they want for their own state and communities. I have stated this before....Having random people on COTH & facebook advocating for local (inclusive of state) businesses is not right.

              Clear enough ?
              She's not advertising.

              Comment


              • I love the fact SV says everyone is calling him/her names but still calls everyone else 'minions'.

                Oh, and while I'm at it, coming up, it seems to move a horse anywhere it has to be chipped and all paperwork in hand?? So, there is another layer of 'to-do' to add on to the price.

                A long time ago, on one of 'their' pages, I asked who was going to step up to take care of the horses. The HSUS (I'm pretty sure it was them) said they had money in place to take care of all the horses...forever. Deep pockets, them have.
                GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                Comment


                • This is about hunting, but shows HSUS's methods and other AR groups watch and learn..

                  One step at a time...

                  http://protecttheharvest.com/hsus-at...fox-preserves/

                  HSUS Attacks Hunters and Property Rights in Virginia, Trying to Outlaw Fox Preserves

                  Posted on February 7, 2013 by info@protecttheharvest.com
                  “We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United States… We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped in California. Then we will take it state by state.” Full Cry Magazine, Oct. 1, 1990

                  Those were the words of Wayne Pacelle, the current CEO of the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS). Add 20 years, a slick black suit, a bigger budget, and his intentions are still the same. While leading the nation’s largest animal rights group, Pacelle has made it a top goal to target and ban certain hunting practices.

                  HSUS has worked to eliminate the traditions of American sportsmen in several states across the nation. Most recently, HSUS supported banning the practice of using hunting dogs to hunt bears and bobcats in California. In 2006, they successfully defeated a ballot measure that would have returned to Michigan hunters, the right to hunt mourning doves.

                  HSUS knows an attempt to completely ban hunting would never work, politically. Instead, their idea is to label and isolate specific practices within hunting to create emotional media attention to mislead voters, while ignoring scientific facts and conservation needs. Every time a law gets passed to eliminate specific hunting practices, HSUS gets closer and closer to their ultimate goal – the elimination of all hunting.

                  When it comes to HSUS and Wayne Pacelle, we think Laura Numeroff said it best, in her popular 1985 children’s book:

                  ‘If you give a mouse a cookie. He’s going to ask for a glass of milk.’

                  Pacelle wrote this entry in his online blog after HSUS claimed victory over banning the use of dogs while hunting bears and bobcats in California,

                  “It’s especially sweet for me because I’ve been wishing for this day now for 20 years, since I first starting working on this issue as a very young man in 1989. It’s been a long time coming, but it shows that persistence pays off.” Pacelle’s Blog Post, Sept. 26, 2012

                  Now, they have moved on to the backyard of their Washington D.C. headquarters and are promoting anti-hunting legislation in the state of Virginia. Senate Bill (SB) 1280 was written to outlaw fox preserves and ban the construction of certain types of pens that might be used for foxhound training. This bill attempts to dictate what Virginia citizens can and cannot build on their own private property, calling into question the constitutionality of the bill.

                  Virginia State Senator Dave Marsden is the sponsor of HSUS-backed SB 1280. In December 2012, Senator Marsden received the legislator of the year award from HSUS. His close working relationship with HSUS is no secret. Upon receiving the award, he said, “I am proud to stand with HSUS in their efforts.” With Senator Marsden as HSUS’s point man in the Virginia Senate, SB 1280 recently passed on a 27-16 vote and will now be sent to the Virginia House of Delegates for their consideration.

                  HSUS is targeting Virginia’s fox preserves as a way to gather momentum and support. Their patterns are predictable. Michigan hunters’ first battle with HSUS was in 2006, and now the animal rights group is back with a new set of hunting restrictions. If HSUS is successful in Virginia, it just opens the doors for a future, more aggressive, assault. They will not stop until their radical agenda has truly been spread from “state to state.”

                  You may be thinking to yourself, “I don’t live in Virginia. How does this affect me?”

                  HSUS may not be in your state at the moment, but make no mistake; they are just around the corner. HSUS’s attack on Virginia hunters is an attack on all American hunters.

                  If you would like to help defend America’s hunters and encourage the Virginia House of Delegates to stand strong for individual liberty and property rights you can contact the chair of the Agriculture Chesapeake and Natural Resources,

                  Beverly J. Sherwood:

                  Capitol Office Phone: (804) 698-1029

                  Email Address: DelBSherwood@house.virginia.gov

                  This entry was posted in HSUS and tagged American Hunters, American Sportsmen, animal rights, california, Dave Marsden, fox preserves, HSUS, Humane Society of the United States, hunting, right to hunt, SB 1280, Virginia, Wayne Pacelle by info@protecttheharvest.com. Bookmark the permalink.
                  " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
                  http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

                  Comment


                  • "minion" favored person, follower

                    That describes the posters telling NYC Carriage Industry VP that they support the cause of the pro-carriage organization. Not "name calling" description of actions.

                    But again anyone who disagrees must defend any word posted.

                    Care to justify "troll", "stupid" and the lovely sentiment "go canoe something" ?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
                      "minion" favored person, follower

                      That describes the posters telling NYC Carriage Industry VP that they support the cause of the pro-carriage organization. Not "name calling" description of actions.

                      But again anyone who disagrees must defend any word posted.

                      Care to justify "troll", "stupid" and the lovely sentiment "go canoe something" ?
                      you forgot 'get drunk'
                      keep it straight, will you.

                      However. this may come as a shock to you: This is not about you.

                      Comment


                      • Hey, you said you were a consultant. Isn't that somehow advertising?? You say you're in CA, the ban on bear hunting you liked. Somehow there is a link? Hmmm...pretty far fetched there, I admit, just seems odd.
                        GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                        Comment


                        • SV..what would be your solution ? Do you agree that the horses must be GIVEN? no money exchanged? Do you think the sanctuary and the individual wanting to "get the land" should pay up front to make sure the money is there? I would think that if you think carriage is cruel, you would also agree that a bankrupt sanctuary sending the horses to an unknwon fate would be equally cruel.

                          I am interested in YOUR solurtion...
                          The Elephant in the room

                          Comment


                          • I suspect SV has a personal vendetta against a couple of people on this thread.

                            Comment


                            • My letter:

                              I write to ask you to oppose S667-2013. I am a resident of Indiana, a lifelong horsewoman and have worked with commercial carriage horses since 1988, in Philadelphia, Cincinnati and Indiana. There are several aspects of this bill which are deeply troubling, most notably section 4 concerning the disposition of licensed carriage horses.

                              While it is reasonable to have regulations concerning the transfer of ownership of a licensed horse between business owners both operating under NYC regulations, setting a given amount of time for an agency to be notified of a change in information connected to an already licensed horse. There is no reason why any agency should have jurisdiction about the transfer of ownership of a horse or have access to private information about any future owner of that animal. These horses are private property; they have a value, both as an individual, and an investment. The horse’s owner is the only person who has a right and responsibility to transfer ownership to who they choose and on what terms as long as those uses are legal. If it is legal for any horseman in New York State to sell a horse without regulation, it is unconstitutional to target only owners, or future owners, of licensed carriage horses for these restrictions.

                              We do not make laws which don’t apply to or protect all people equally. It is un-American to devalue the personal investment in these highly trained horses by mandating that they only go to sanctuaries or homes where they are pasture pets- that using them for the purposes they were bred and trained would not only be illegal, but inhumane. This bill proposes to define what is a “humane manner” to transfer ownership of a horse and by omission- it deems all other methods and homes inhumane.

                              If a given activity is legal, for example- to plow a garden with a horse, it should not be illegal to sell a horse to a person who intends to plow a garden with him. If plowing a garden is such a troublesome occupation - then plowing gardens with horses must be outlawed. How can garden plowing, and any and every other use of a horse, remain legal if it is written into legislation that it is inhumane?

                              If passed , section 4 of S667-2013 deems virtually all horse use inhumane while at the same time the state would be overseeing and profiting from race tracks and using horses in Police and Park service. Will we no longer see any horses pulling floats in Parades, will the plow horses at the living history farms also be seized and never again allowed to work? There are only about 200 carriage horses in New York City, but New York State is home to a population of about 15,000 Amish people- will they be regulated as well? What possible justification could the Senate have to place such restrictions on such a very small portion of the horse owners of New York, while at the same time- deeming virtually all productive, agricultural, educational and recreational use of horses to be inhumane.

                              If the state determines that they have the right to mandate the seizure and disuse of these privately owned and well trained horses, is that the precedent? - The state could mandate that no horse is ever used for its bred purpose or training?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
                                Hey, you said you were a consultant. Isn't that somehow advertising?? You say you're in CA, the ban on bear hunting you liked. Somehow there is a link? Hmmm...pretty far fetched there, I admit, just seems odd.
                                That was my point, I should start threads on a public board where I ask people from all over to support my business. Which is what the VP of the NYC Carriage Industry does on a regular basis.

                                No, I don't benefit from shooting treed animals nor do I benefit from Not shooting treed animals in my line of work. You brought up new Cal. hunting laws that were somehow a "taking of people's rights" to use dogs in hunting. I explained what the law actaully was for, the banning of hunting with "packs of dogs for bear and bobcat" since the packs are trained to chase the bears and bobcats and usually tree the animal so that the hunter can walk over and shoot the treed animal. I don't see it as taking away the right to hunt with dogs. Many people still do for other animals.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by stolen virtue View Post
                                  That was my point, I should start threads on a public board where I ask people from all over to support my business. Which is what the VP of the NYC Carriage Industry does on a regular basis.

                                  No, I don't benefit from shooting treed animals nor do I benefit from Not shooting treed animals in my line of work. You brought up new Cal. hunting laws that were somehow a "taking of people's rights" to use dogs in hunting. I explained what the law actaully was for, the banning of hunting with "packs of dogs for bear and bobcat" since the packs are trained to chase the bears and bobcats and usually tree the animal so that the hunter can walk over and shoot the treed animal. I don't see it as taking away the right to hunt with dogs. Many people still do for other animals.
                                  NO!!! You MISS the point. She is not saying support MY carriage company Carriages Rides in the Park, she is asking for support of the HORSE and carriage business. For you to start a post about your business you would have to say SUPPORT all Consultants in NYC or in your case San Francisco. Big difference.. So Sorry for your misunderstanding...
                                  " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
                                  http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                    SV..what would be your solution ? Do you agree that the horses must be GIVEN? no money exchanged? Do you think the sanctuary and the individual wanting to "get the land" should pay up front to make sure the money is there? I would think that if you think carriage is cruel, you would also agree that a bankrupt sanctuary sending the horses to an unknwon fate would be equally cruel.

                                    I am interested in YOUR solurtion...
                                    Typically for uses (usually commercial or industrial) that use is still allowed but the owners cannot expand their use and new businesses cannot be allowed. So the use continues but is not expanded. Sometimes there is a time frame of allowing the use for say another 10 years and then closing the business. That is a typical way to handle "non-conforming uses" and if I were advocating for a ban on the carriage horses that is how I would expect the business owners to be treated-like other business owners. And yes, if another entity wanted the land, payment of fair market value would be required. This is sometimes harder to do when the use is no longer permitted (the value of the business typically goes down) but in NYC the value should hold since all urban land is of high value.

                                    Comment


                                    • Stolen Virtue. We get it, loud and clear. You don't like working carriage horses. Now you really are just trolling. I've reported you, I suggest everyone else does the same.

                                      Comment


                                      • Laura feel free to report anything. Everyone has a right to their own opinions. apparently even to say "go canoe something "...

                                        Comment


                                        • As we posted before, avoid the personal commentary -- as in, there was some inappropriate personal commentary earlier in this thread, please avoid it going forward. Hope that clears things up.

                                          As stated before, this thread is not in violation of our posting policies, so please stop further debate regarding whether or not it is. We allow discussion of legislation and other issues affecting various segments of the equine industry.

                                          Thanks,
                                          Mod 1

                                          Comment

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