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Long term consequences for the American horse market.

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  • Originally posted by mvp View Post
    It's wrong to put the interests of needy animals ahead of those of equally needy human.
    You are free to have your own opinion. I do not agree with you and since I earn my own money I think I'll spend it on what I think is important.
    Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

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    • Original Poster

      Originally posted by caballero View Post
      Non sequitur.....


      I ask once more. What makes you the arbiter of what is and is not crap? What makes your opinion of what a healthy equine marketplace is weigh more than mine or that of the WP breeders, backyard pet adopters, cheap trail horse buyer, or anyone elses?

      Stop the smokescreens. You just want to use the force of government to curtail the availability of low cost horses to reduce the competition faced by breeders and trainers of certain performance horses.

      The very definition of lame. Never you mind, there will be plenty of people in opposition when you try.
      I think you've made the error of giving me too much credit!!! That's far too sophisticated a plan.

      I would like it if I did not receive calls from desperate friends/clients about 'what to do' with this rescue horse that is costing them a fortune. What to tell their husband now that they have 5 horses at 3 different farms and 2 of them are semi feral, haven't had their feet done in 6 months because they eat farriers, etc.

      I do think it is in the best interests of everybody with a stake in the industry to consider the long term consequences of the 'rescue culture' BEFORE things get to a point that someone (possibly that big, bad, democratic government you are so afraid of.....) is forced to step in.

      An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in my book.
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      http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

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      • Original Poster

        Originally posted by caballero View Post
        Non sequitur.....


        I ask once more. What makes you the arbiter of what is and is not crap? What makes your opinion of what a healthy equine marketplace is weigh more than mine or that of the WP breeders, backyard pet adopters, cheap trail horse buyer, or anyone elses?
        I am not an arbiter, but I am on the receiving end of more "what do I do now?" scenarios than I really appreciate. The next time someone calls me with a slowly dying horse that they are agonizing over, shall you like to offer your phone number and I can hand the problem over to you?
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        • Originally posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
          What does winners in western pleasure, walking horse have to do with the US horse market? These are very small portions of the market which have issues which are slowly being corrected. The impact of these portions is non-existant in the overall horse market.
          Because the OP finds them aesthetically displeasing?

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          • Original Poster

            Originally posted by Gestalt View Post
            I'm in eastern Oregon, you should see what damage cattle have made on blm and national first lands. It's criminal. Yet the Burns wildhorse corrals are stuffed to the max. And don't get me going on the land outside of Antelope, ranchers aren't the glorious guardians of the west.
            I wouldn't doubt that at all. But I also don't think that allowing tens of thousands of wild horses to wander around is a reasonable use. Even worse is maintaining them in confinement because we currently choose to neither let them roam nor let them go to slaughter. The worst result for all sides, IMHO.
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            • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
              The next time someone calls me with a slowly dying horse that they are agonizing over, shall you like to offer your phone number and I can hand the problem over to you?
              I'd be right over with a revolver and six rounds to give the horse much needed humane relief. It would only take one shot but only fools carry a partially loaded firearm.

              And FTR, I'm not afraid of any government, I just have no use for most of it.

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              • Original Poster

                Originally posted by wonderhorseguy View Post
                What does winners in western pleasure, walking horse have to do with the US horse market? These are very small portions of the market which have issues which are slowly being corrected. The impact of these portions is non-existant in the overall horse market.
                I was trying to offer an example of what kind of 'products' the free market system yields on it's own. But as I said, I think getting into politics is going to make a mess here.
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                • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                  I was trying to offer an example of what kind of 'products' the free market system yields on it's own. But as I said, I think getting into politics is going to make a mess here.
                  Why didn't you offer the examples at the other end of the spectrum that the free market also produces?

                  Oh wait, that would not jive with the agenda.

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                  • Original Poster

                    Originally posted by caballero View Post
                    I'd be right over with a revolver and six rounds to give the horse much needed humane relief. It would only take one shot but only fools carry a partially loaded firearm.

                    And FTR, I'm not afraid of any government, I just have no use for most of it.
                    I would agree with that solution, but I don't think my friend would have. At the time, the horse in question was having complications following colic surgery and the insurance limit was looming.

                    I have held the lead rope for other friends who could not bear to be there when their horse was euthanized, and I would have done so for her as well. In this case, it was mostly a question of 'should she continue to invest in this horse, or is it hopeless anyway? My crystal ball was busted that day, so how the hell do I know if the horse is going to make it or not? Or if sinking more $ into it is going to 'pay off' eventually?

                    And despite my (very blunt, if not totally rude and inconsiderate....) efforts to make it well known that I am in favor of euthanizing sooner rather than later, people will still call me and ask me these things.

                    So since I get dragged in to these situations anyway, I'd like to encourage people to THINK about the long term consequences of creating 'Rescue' as the new, hot horse sport.
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                    • Just to correct a biological inaccuracy -- horses are not an "invasive" or "exotic" species. Although they are easy labels to use to dismiss something that doesn't fit in with what you want, horses did evolve in North America, disappeared for a time, and then returned. Feral? Yes, many are. But not exotic and as such are no less valid than other wildlife in the system.
                      Life doesn't have perfect footing.

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                      We Are Flying Solo

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                      • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                        I am not an arbiter, but I am on the receiving end of more "what do I do now?" scenarios than I really appreciate. The next time someone calls me with a slowly dying horse that they are agonizing over, shall you like to offer your phone number and I can hand the problem over to you?
                        I get those calls too. Got one on Friday night, in fact. Would you rather that ammies in over their heads called someone else BESIDES a competent, full-time professional? I'd rather they called me than that government you think has all the answers, because I seriously doubt THEY give a rat's patoot!

                        Buddha once said that we cause all our own grief by constantly comparing the reality we HAVE to the reality we'd LIKE to have. Here's the reality we have NOW:

                        (1) Many people have had to divest of horses they can't afford.
                        (2) Not all of these horses are useful for an athletic "job."
                        (3) Humane slaughter is not an option for most people right now.
                        (4) Humane euth. can be logistically complicated and expensive.
                        (5) New people are discovering horses as hobbies and pets.
                        (6) Horses in need are finding new good homes with #5 above.
                        (7) Sometimes things don't work out. That happens with ANYTHING.

                        Now, then, OP and owner of this-here soapbox, what reality would you LIKE to see? And how would that specifically benefit you? For me, it's actually EASIER if my clients have pets they just groom!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by wildlifer View Post
                          Just to correct a biological inaccuracy -- horses are not an "invasive" or "exotic" species. Although they are easy labels to use to dismiss something that doesn't fit in with what you want, horses did evolve in North America, disappeared for a time, and then returned. Feral? Yes, many are. But not exotic and as such are no less valid than other wildlife in the system.
                          My understanding is that, in range management, feral hogs, horses, cattle, cats and any other such domesticated species are considered invasive if they are where the environment is not adapted to them and they are destroying native species and their environment.
                          Horses overgrazing their designated ranges fit those descriptions, that is why the BLM was mandated to manage them.

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                          • Original Poster

                            Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                            Now, then, OP and owner of this-here soapbox, what reality would you LIKE to see? And how would that specifically benefit you? For me, it's actually EASIER if my clients have pets they just groom!
                            At this moment, I am happy to settle for the permission to suggest to people that they consider carefully their devotion to/involvement in rescue organizations/efforts.

                            I don't know if it's the prevalence of hurricanes, tornadoes, Madison Avenue consumer society, etc or what? But people are very, very willing to be influenced/have their buttons pushed by folks waving the 'EMERGENCY! DANGER! SAVE THEM! THEY ARE INNOCENT!'

                            And God Forbid you suggest a half-halt, "hey wait a minute, is this really a good idea, in ours and their best long term interests," thoughtful consideration of the consequences.

                            Right now it is forbidden to THINK that Rescue Sport is not such a good idea for our industry. If we could both think and talk about it that would be a nice first step.

                            As for 'my' specific benefit, we all benefit from being involved in a culture that aspires to better. Right now, it's like being a school teacher dealing with parents who are lax in their responsibilities, and then expect the public school teacher to make up for it. (I'm opening up a can of worms with that analogy, but it's the best I cant think of right now.) In this case, the 'fur' parents make bad decisions initially by choosing to parent when they are ill equipped. Then they over feed and confine. Then they claim fear when their ill tended spawn does not behave. Then they beg for someone to save them!!

                            Oy vey, I say free birth control for all.
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                            • Isabeau, you are asking the right questions.

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                              • Totally second the Free Birth Control!!

                                And I, also, believe you are asking the right questions.

                                When I get those calls, I tell myself:

                                "Asshats are everywhere, innumerable like goose turd. My duty is to help 'em all."

                                Yeah, it gets old. But right now we don't have alternatives except to just turn the other way. And I just love horses a little too much for that.

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                                • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                  I would agree with that solution, but I don't think my friend would have. At the time, the horse in question was having complications following colic surgery and the insurance limit was looming.
                                  It sounds like the problem really isn't rescues - it is the refusal/inability of people to say, "Yes, maybe it is time to let them go." This happens with rescue horses and non-rescue horses.

                                  I know there are some (maybe many) rescues that think they aren't doing the right thing unless they spend tons of money on each horse. I know there are some who seem to use those hopeless cases as fundraisers. And I agree that those people are a problem, too. I don't think it is right to keep a horse suffering for an outcome that's marginal at best. We have taken in horses just to turn around and euthanize them because they're not going to be sound or comfortable.
                                  Last edited by cowgirljenn; Feb. 4, 2013, 11:10 AM.
                                  Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

                                  Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

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                                  • Take a deep breath. Learn to say no to people who call you with a horse problem. Or do what you can to make the world a little better for one horse, one person. Sometimes when people call with a horse problem, all they are are really looking for is a kind ear, not a solution. You can't change, fix, or save everyone. And that doesn't just apply to rescues I think I would drive myself crazy is I started worrying about everyone who doesn't see the world my way.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Discobold View Post
                                      Take a deep breath. Learn to say no to people who call you with a horse problem. Or do what you can to make the world a little better for one horse, one person. Sometimes when people call with a horse problem, all they are are really looking for is a kind ear, not a solution. You can't change, fix, or save everyone. And that doesn't just apply to rescues I think I would drive myself crazy is I started worrying about everyone who doesn't see the world my way.
                                      I think there are two major points of breakdown for both "rescues," and private owners.

                                      The first is, they take on more than they can handle without really thoroughly running the numbers or considering the consequences, including worst-case scenarios and what they'd do for "backup." This does not apply merely to horse acquisition, but to everything! I am convinced a very large segment of the American public now makes "decisions" in a rather child-like way with a very loose grasp of the laws of causality--as in, "If I do this, will it cause that?" They seem permanently cognitively stuck at about age 14. If you don't believe me, think for a minute about whether or not anyone you know born after 1960 has the same level of "impulse control" as their parents.

                                      The second is, our society so removes the reality of decrepitude, disease and death from our sight, replacing with the promise of immortal perkiness via pharmaceuticals, that people have a very unrealistic expectation of what they can accomplish--particularly with an older horse who comes with a raft of chronic problems. And, they are going to HAVE to deal with the emotional reality of parting-time; I could tell you some epic tales about people who just CAN'T let go, no matter HOW much the horse is suffering--and they are often the LAST people you'd think. High income, college degrees, big jobs, doesn't matter! Again, childlike--it comes as a huge surprise to them that Life is not a fairy tale that never ends.

                                      Comment


                                      • I don't find that people born after 1960 (or 1980 or 1990 or even 2000) lack impulse control anymore than people born before 1960. I know many amazing ones. (My stepson is a childhood cancer survivor who accepts that life has no guarantees. I know people in their 80's who can't accept their one mortality.) This thread has too many generalizations about people and rescue groups. Part of emotional maturity is understanding that everyone's reality is a little different.

                                        And what does the owner who won't euthanize a suffering horse have to do with rescues? (I stopped supporting most rescues a long time ago, but that's my decision.) I can't even figure out how rescue is defined on this thread. Is CANTER a rescue? Because I do support them, and I know that they are the first to make the difficult decision to euthanize a horse that is suffering.

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                                        • I think the questions raised are honest and useful. Currently it is possible for well-meaning animal lovers to get involved with a horse from a "situation" without truly understanding what that entails. Some of them may have owned a horse or pony in the past, some do currently, and some have simply aspired to until a particular horse in need came to their attention. Those that currently own horses probably do understand it, but many others just haven't had the experience to do so.

                                          Maybe the answer is an educational video and booklet to help folks learn what owning a horse under the best circumstances and the less good circumstances means. At least then, they have a chance to learn what they're getting into and are somewhat prepared for ownership. Just my two cents.

                                          Oh, and if these already exist, i'm unaware of them, so awareness needs to be part of the program.
                                          They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                          Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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