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Long term consequences for the American horse market.

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  • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    You feel that tormenting that old horse at the end of his life was a generous and compassionate act?
    It doesn't matter what I think and it certainly does not matter what you think when it comes to the sale of a horse between two adults.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
      Which points up what I feel is this industry's absolute weakest link: There is an utter dearth, lack and shortage of young, motivated riders who want to work STARTING AND MAKING YOUNG HORSES. Unless you're talking about a racing TB, 90% of the value added to young horses comes from TRAINING and PREPARATION, NOT conformation and bloodlines. We need more trainers! REAL trainers, not 30-day wonders produced by Parelli games. Juniors reading this, if you can set yourself up in business backing, starting, and making young hunters and jumpers you will be able to write your own ticket! Let the rich-kids do the showing while you TRAIN the babies. Wish I weren't too old--I hire the "test-pilots" these days . . .
      And I actually think we need more 30-60 day trainers. We try to send as many of the rescue horses out for some basic training as we can. It makes them more adoptable, and if we can move them into new homes, we have room to help more. I'm NOT expecting a well-trained show horse in 30-60 days, BUT a decent trainer should be able to work with a horse and get some basics down in that amount of time. But what we're running into is the Parelli-type trainers who take 3 months to just get into the saddle. We're not sending them mustangs/feral horses who haven't been touched. When the rescue horses go off, they have some basic ground skills.

      We do have one excellent trainer who seems to do more in 30 days with the horses we send him than other trainers have done in 90 days. Our problem is that he has limited space and can only take one of our horses at a time (btw, we're not asking for freebies. He does give a small discount, but that's more because we've been good, steady clients).

      I understand that training takes time, but there are tons of "trainers" out there now wanting people to pay them a fortune to play "games" with their horses.

      I do think we see fewer and fewer trainers and professional horseman because it is so hard to make a living training. The cost of everything seems to have far outpaced the income made by training or working with horses as a living.
      Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

      Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

      Comment


      • The whole rescue racket has hurt my BO alot. He raises/deals in lower end horses. Nice using type horses and ponies. Nothing that's going to the Olympics, but nice $500 ponies. We've joked that he should start advertising his stock as "need to be rescued or they are going to be (and live a horrible life as) Amish road horses" My BO is Amish.

        He's also one of the 30 day trainers cowgirljenn is looking for. What he can do with a horse in 2 weeks is pretty amazing (and a lot of these things are untouched or been 4 different place b/f this). The problem is he's 75. He's got a couple dozen grandkids and none want to work horses.

        Personally, I'd like to see more young trainers who can do more than just maintain a made horse, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
        Visit my Spoonflower shop

        Comment


        • Both my horses are rescues, but awesome, quality animals. I rode at lots of sales barns, so learned how to convert OTTB and others into nice prospects for BNTs, like cover of magazine big. So, I love being able to get a cheap horse and beat the imports with them. But most rescues don't discern and if it's breathing, they rescue it. But it does fuel a huge industry! This whole thread is just hating on Parelli for cashing in! (jk - I hate Parelli). In all seriousness, I think the people who rescue the unsound and/or insane and those who actually are horsemen/women are different species altogether and always have been.

          And that's true in Europe, too! Average, not wealthy, not supremely athletic people ride like crap on some fugly nags over there, too. They don't have as many feral horses as us (and calling mustangs feral horses would de-romanticize them), but they do have some bad, cheap, no good horses, too.

          Ultimately, if the economy continues to tank, nice prospects that are called rescues now, like OTTBs, may be popular again with the people who previously couldn't afford to import, but bought well-bred in US WBs, and the people who never rode but read the Misty and Black Stallion books will try to save the mentally or physically unwell horses, then spend thousands on rope halters and carrot sticks to find nirvana.

          In other words, don't blame me, I didn't vote for him

          Comment


          • Posted by LilyandBaron:

            In other words, don't blame me, I didn't vote for him
            You do not understand what actually happened (and still is happening) to the economy if you are going to blame Obama.

            Oh, the people responsible for this economic disaster lied to Bush also.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
              I do think we see fewer and fewer trainers and professional horseman because it is so hard to make a living training. The cost of everything seems to have far outpaced the income made by training or working with horses as a living.
              Ah yes. If there were $$$ to be made, folks would be doing it.
              "Friend" me !

              http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                Ah yes. If there were $$$ to be made, folks would be doing it.
                Well, a friend of mine in FL is beating clients off with a stick, but she WILL sit on just about anything including some "rangatangs" that would make me run for my life!

                "National Horse Registry????" Now THAT's scary. We don't have that for dogs and cats, why ever do we need one for horses? Please pardon me while I line my helmet with tin foil!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by red mares View Post
                  The whole rescue racket has hurt my BO alot. He raises/deals in lower end horses. Nice using type horses and ponies. Nothing that's going to the Olympics, but nice $500 ponies. We've joked that he should start advertising his stock as "need to be rescued or they are going to be (and live a horrible life as) Amish road horses" My BO is Amish.
                  And I sometimes feel/worry that the 'slaughter rescue' (the 'The horses are going on the truck unless you save them right now!!!!') have made it harder for us to adopt out horses. I've been told by more than one person, "But your horses are safe. I want to rescue a horse." The thing is - our horses weren't 'safe' before. They come from law enforcement cases. And while the foster homes sit with horses that people don't want because no one is threatening to slaughter them, other horses go 'unsaved' because we don't have room.

                  red mares - I think we need to clone your barn owner. We need more guys like him.
                  Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

                  Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    Originally posted by caballero View Post
                    It doesn't matter what I think and it certainly does not matter what you think when it comes to the sale of a horse between two adults.
                    That horse in question was not 'sold.' The rescue my friend worked with always retained ownership of the horse. Horse was 'surrendered' initially because the rescue did not want the trail string operator to euthanize the horse. Which would have been a better ending than the one the horse actually got.
                    "Friend" me !

                    http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

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                    • Original Poster

                      Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                      Well, a friend of mine in FL is beating clients off with a stick, but she WILL sit on just about anything including some "rangatangs" that would make me run for my life!

                      "National Horse Registry????" Now THAT's scary. We don't have that for dogs and cats, why ever do we need one for horses? Please pardon me while I line my helmet with tin foil!
                      I am pretty sure that an accounting of their holdings is how many European countries have made such success of their breeding equine management programs. That, and I believe slaughter is more easily obtained.

                      According to the UK.gov and BHS sites, all horses ponies donkeys have to have a passport. I tried to look up for Germany and others, but couldn't find that as easily. Does anyone know if all horses have to be registered in Germany?
                      "Friend" me !

                      http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

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                      • Original Poster

                        Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
                        And I sometimes feel/worry that the 'slaughter rescue' (the 'The horses are going on the truck unless you save them right now!!!!') have made it harder for us to adopt out horses. I've been told by more than one person, "But your horses are safe. I want to rescue a horse." The thing is - our horses weren't 'safe' before. They come from law enforcement cases. And while the foster homes sit with horses that people don't want because no one is threatening to slaughter them, other horses go 'unsaved' because we don't have room.
                        I can see how that could be the case.
                        "Friend" me !

                        http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

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                        • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                          That horse in question was not 'sold.' The rescue my friend worked with always retained ownership of the horse. Horse was 'surrendered' initially because the rescue did not want the trail string operator to euthanize the horse. Which would have been a better ending than the one the horse actually got.
                          You keep inserting yourself in situations that do not concern you. Why?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                            I am pretty sure that an accounting of their holdings is how many European countries have made such success of their breeding equine management programs. That, and I believe slaughter is more easily obtained.

                            According to the UK.gov and BHS sites, all horses ponies donkeys have to have a passport. I tried to look up for Germany and others, but couldn't find that as easily. Does anyone know if all horses have to be registered in Germany?
                            1) We don't have a national stud in the US.
                            2) We don't need a national stud in the US.
                            3) We don't need the federal government regulating the breeding of any domestic animal in the US.
                            4) We don't need any state government regulating the breeding of any domestic animal in the US.
                            5) Most of what Europe does is not worthy of emulation.
                            6) You seem to want these things because you want government intervention to tilt the playing field in favor of your segment of the industry.
                            7) If the horse industry can't survive without government intercession in its favor, then it should to disappear.
                            8) Just in case you are wondering I feel the same as I do in 7 above about any other industry and company within an industry. Live or die on your own merits and your own ability to thrive under market forces without using the government to give you an advantage.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by caballero View Post
                              1) We don't have a national stud in the US.
                              2) We don't need a national stud in the US.
                              3) We don't need the federal government regulating the breeding of any domestic animal in the US.
                              4) We don't need any state government regulating the breeding of any domestic animal in the US.
                              5) Most of what Europe does is not worthy of emulation.
                              6) You seem to want these things because you want government intervention to tilt the playing field in favor of your segment of the industry.
                              7) If the horse industry can't survive without government intercession in its favor, then it should to disappear.
                              8) Just in case you are wondering I feel the same as I do in 7 above about any other industry and company within an industry. Live or die on your own merits and your own ability to thrive under market forces without using the government to give you an advantage.
                              THREE CHEERS and AMEN to the above! And I would add that it is well worthwhile to study the various market forces in play at any given time; for they indeed have shaped the state of the industry to exactly where we find it today . . . and will continue to do so as we move forward to wherever it's going next.

                              "Trim your sail to catch the wind."

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                Originally posted by caballero View Post
                                1)
                                8) Just in case you are wondering I feel the same as I do in 7 above about any other industry and company within an industry. Live or die on your own merits and your own ability to thrive under market forces without using the government to give you an advantage.
                                I only have to look as far as McDonalds to see that the free market system with no checks leads to crap.

                                No, I do not want the US horse market to go the way of winners in the western pleasure, walking horse, etc arenas.

                                Markets are powerful tools, but as humans, we should not place our self at the mercy of our tools. We should use them, not allow them to use us.

                                But we are at risk of getting off track into politics at this point.
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                                http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  Originally posted by caballero View Post
                                  You keep inserting yourself in situations that do not concern you. Why?
                                  How did I 'insert' myself in the situation?
                                  "Friend" me !

                                  http://www.facebook.com/isabeau.solace

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                    No, I do not want the US horse market to go the way of winners in the western pleasure, walking horse, etc arenas.
                                    Non sequitur.....

                                    Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                    I only have to look as far as McDonalds to see that the free market system with no checks leads to crap.
                                    I ask once more. What makes you the arbiter of what is and is not crap? What makes your opinion of what a healthy equine marketplace is weigh more than mine or that of the WP breeders, backyard pet adopters, cheap trail horse buyer, or anyone elses?

                                    Stop the smokescreens. You just want to use the force of government to curtail the availability of low cost horses to reduce the competition faced by breeders and trainers of certain performance horses.

                                    The very definition of lame. Never you mind, there will be plenty of people in opposition when you try.

                                    Comment


                                    • Agree with OP the "rescue" phenom is getting out of hand. I have an old friend that got suckered in this past year, who posted proud pics of their new "rescued" horses , got tons of on line praise, how lovely, etc, kudos.

                                      Now it's starting to be a nightmare for them. Both horses unsound physically, one a mental case. It's obvious they never considered this outcome. All the feel good feelings for "rescuing" are gone, now just pain & regret & anxiety over what to do next...

                                      I feel for them, & I'm trying to time my advice "humane euth costs this much, not the worst outcome for these two" etc.

                                      I wish most of the so called "rescues" would be replaced with auctions linked to local humane slaughter processing plants, honestly.

                                      I think the horses would be better off. Those still able to do a job could be bought at auction; those not - no long hopeless trip, instead swift & humane end with trained USA regulators observing & enforcing.

                                      (Note, I know there are good, realistic & effective rescues out there - hoping you would be the few that remainined operating in my ideal world described above...)

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                        I only have to look as far as McDonalds to see that the free market system with no checks leads to crap.

                                        No, I do not want the US horse market to go the way of winners in the western pleasure, walking horse, etc arenas.

                                        Markets are powerful tools, but as humans, we should not place our self at the mercy of our tools. We should use them, not allow them to use us.

                                        But we are at risk of getting off track into politics at this point.
                                        What does winners in western pleasure, walking horse have to do with the US horse market? These are very small portions of the market which have issues which are slowly being corrected. The impact of these portions is non-existant in the overall horse market.
                                        I support equine meat processing as an option for those who choose to use it.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Cielo Azure View Post
                                          On my facebook page and webpages, I see rescues as basically saying anyone who buys a quality horse, rather than adopt is somehow less moral, less caring. The idea behind actually riding a horse, driving a horse -using it for performance seems to be less and less important for most horse owners. It is kind of scary for the horse industry.

                                          But I also see slaughter (that is transport to slaughter) for any horse in the USA as not viable and not appropriate. The idea of hoist and shackle and poor slaughter practices in Mexico should be enough to outlaw transport to Mexico for slaughter. period.

                                          What is the answer? It has to be more efficient slaughter/rendering/de-centralized options for horse carcasses in the USA, as well as options for efficient euthanasia (maybe more like the knackerman in the UK). Veterinarians should be encouraged to use a gun for euthanasia, for people that can't afford euthanasia and euthanasia should be offered as an option for unsound animals. That requires leaders at the USDA to actually give a flying fart about the issue.

                                          It also requires that veterinarians be trained in safe (gun) euthanasia techniques and understand why it is important to be able to offer low cost options (to stop horses going to kill auctions). Ergo: vet school training needs to change.
                                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                          Public lands are supposed to be for all uses, not just feral horses as a symbol.

                                          The lands that are cattle permits are very, very regulated, few cattle go there and only for a few weeks a year and that only if it rains or snows.
                                          For some years now, many permit holders have been paying for land they were not permitted to use, because of the ongoing drought.

                                          No way you can compare that kind of range management with feral horses, an invasive species there, using those ranges all year around, even when they are starving because of the drought and increasing numbers continuously, damaging the ranges for all there, including the native species.

                                          Those ranges designated for feral horses were determined to be so for only some of those horses, knowing they were not in an ideal situation, the BLM mandated to see that they were managed so as to do the least damage and still be there as a symbol.

                                          Sorry, the old "bad ranchers etc." doesn't fly there.

                                          I know, lets send those feral horses to the East, there is so much more grass there, those lands can hold so many more horses per acre, let them reproduce without controls there, why not do that?
                                          I'm in eastern Oregon, you should see what damage cattle have made on blm and national first lands. It's criminal. Yet the Burns wildhorse corrals are stuffed to the max. And don't get me going on the land outside of Antelope, ranchers aren't the glorious guardians of the west.
                                          Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.

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