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  • #81
    Originally posted by HannahsMom7 View Post
    well, I don't know where to start.
    1st - I would like a free horse that is a good age and healthy for free. I have yet to find that. all the horses I see looking for new homes are aged and/or used up from lessons or whatever.


    2nd I hate that slap at backyard breeding, maybe they produce a few, but where are the ammy's getting their 3' jumpers? Not from your average backyard breeder.

    These horses are coming from professional breeders.
    I suspect when those high-quality, hot headed horses get used up from all that jumping they don't have an easy landing. Why are those breeders getting a by?They need to stop breeding.

    Look at the Giveaway Forum here, there are a few used up show horses, maybe their owners should put them down instead of passing them on.

    how about stopping the racing industry - they are producing horses by the dozens.


    these kinds of threads make me crazy!!!!
    How about I send 10,000 or so young, healthy, sound, sane retiring race horses for free? I could make you eat those words until pigs fly. You really are off base here.
    McDowell Racing Stables

    Home Away From Home

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #82
      Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
      As for the use someone puts a horse to: I've known many, many people who in their minds consider themselves "riders," and their horse owned for "riding," though they may not have saddled their pet (for that is what it is) for 20 years. This is more frequent than not in people over 60. Why should anyone have a problem with that? If someone has the money to take proper care of a horse who has the life of a pasture ornament (most horses would probably consider this their dream, optimal existence!) they are still putting dollars into the "horse industry" via feed, farrier, vet, etc. so whatever on Earth is the problem?
      There are multiple problems.

      First being that the horse industry is developing segments that are actively working against one another. Many disciplines have gone way, way, wayyyy too far in manipulating and abusing the animals (we can pick on any high stakes discipline, but some of the most chosen targets are western pleasure, walker/saddlebreds, and racing, and I saw some spiffy footage of 'shanking' in Arab halter classes today.... There are plenty of targets to choose, unfortunately.)

      Which has led to an entire other segment that devotes itself to 'saving' the leftovers/victims from the higher stakes pursuits. So now, instead of my local 4-H being involved in barrels, hunter seat equitation, or trails class. There is a whole segment of kids who are learning the discipline of 'rescue.' And lets face is, outrage is just a really, really, really old fashioned, easy button to push in people. And these rescue types cultivate outrage.

      Just like with monetary charity, it is the people who are personally closest to the problems, who donate the most. Personally, I see plenty of people who are stretching themselves to be able to do this rescuing. In other words, they can't really afford it, but their emotions have been manipulated and their compassion tapped, and they will respond.

      Meanwhile.... the folks at the top of the food chain, the breeders who crank out race horses full well knowing that 95% of their foal crop will NOT do the job for which they were bred, for example, continue on as always with their extremely wasteful pursuits.

      Supported further by lottery funding, etc. They produce thens of thousands of animals that someone else is going to have to do something with. Because once they find it ain't gonna race, they have a cultural 'get out of jail/horse ownership free' card. For some reason, they are not expected to continue the care of these animals. They may dump them for a tiny fraction of the original purchase price (but at TB auction for $100k, sell on CANTER for $500.....) AND people will bend over backwards to help them do it.

      It's messed up.

      I think that the ridiculous prohibition against horse slaughter is the nail in the coffin that really makes a mess where there doesn't need to be one. But that's a topic for another thread.
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      • #83
        95% of TBs don't race? Where the heck did you get that figure?
        McDowell Racing Stables

        Home Away From Home

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        • #84
          Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
          95% of TBs don't race? Where the heck did you get that figure?
          Poetic license, maybe?

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
            95% of TBs don't race? Where the heck did you get that figure?
            It's on The Internet and they don't say anything wrong or incorrect, EVER!
            Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

            Comment


            • #86
              science

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                95% of TBs don't race? Where the heck did you get that figure?
                To be fair that is not exactly what the OP said. I read it to mean that she feels only 5% get to be "successful" runners. Of course my response would be "How many purposebred dressage horses have a 60 % or higher Grand Prix score" and if it is only 1 out of a hundred, are dressage breeders being wasteful if they miss the mark? Not everyone can pilot a 17 hand warmblood with big movement-or wants to.

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                  There are multiple problems.

                  First being that the horse industry is developing segments that are actively working against one another. Many disciplines have gone way, way, wayyyy too far in manipulating and abusing the animals (we can pick on any high stakes discipline, but some of the most chosen targets are western pleasure, walker/saddlebreds, and racing, and I saw some spiffy footage of 'shanking' in Arab halter classes today.... There are plenty of targets to choose, unfortunately.)

                  Which has led to an entire other segment that devotes itself to 'saving' the leftovers/victims from the higher stakes pursuits. So now, instead of my local 4-H being involved in barrels, hunter seat equitation, or trails class. There is a whole segment of kids who are learning the discipline of 'rescue.' And lets face is, outrage is just a really, really, really old fashioned, easy button to push in people. And these rescue types cultivate outrage.

                  Just like with monetary charity, it is the people who are personally closest to the problems, who donate the most. Personally, I see plenty of people who are stretching themselves to be able to do this rescuing. In other words, they can't really afford it, but their emotions have been manipulated and their compassion tapped, and they will respond.

                  Meanwhile.... the folks at the top of the food chain, the breeders who crank out race horses full well knowing that 95% of their foal crop will NOT do the job for which they were bred, for example, continue on as always with their extremely wasteful pursuits.

                  Supported further by lottery funding, etc. They produce thens of thousands of animals that someone else is going to have to do something with. Because once they find it ain't gonna race, they have a cultural 'get out of jail/horse ownership free' card. For some reason, they are not expected to continue the care of these animals. They may dump them for a tiny fraction of the original purchase price (but at TB auction for $100k, sell on CANTER for $500.....) AND people will bend over backwards to help them do it.

                  It's messed up.

                  I think that the ridiculous prohibition against horse slaughter is the nail in the coffin that really makes a mess where there doesn't need to be one. But that's a topic for another thread.
                  Sounds like your 4-H'ers are learning the disciplines of Horse Care and Stable Management, actually. And giving a horse a good home in the process.

                  As we all agreed at the very beginning of this thread, overbreeding of whatever breed or type ceases rapidly the minute the monetary reward for doing it is not there. Sounds like maybe that's happened to you and you're pissed off about it? Perfectly understandable.

                  Backyard pet ridden recreationally is the biggest "discipline" in this country, possibly the world. Most people have neither the desire, the time, nor the wherewithal to pursue upper-level competition in ANYTHING. Few of us aspire to sporting superlatives, and of those who do, 95% fail.

                  To me, the most positive outcome is for most horses most of the time to be owned, loved, and well-cared for regardless of the use to which they are put. We are moving toward that as we speak--today, abuse and neglect which was considered "business as usual" in the 70's is utterly societally unacceptable today. This is a PROBLEM?

                  Fear not that the horse industry is about to evaporate. I have read statistics that show clearly there are more horses in the U.S. today than there were at the dawn of the automobile age, and that's saying something. That they receive better, more educated care and live longer, healthier, happier lives for the most part goes without saying for the simple reason that owning and using them is a recreational pursuit, not a necessity for getting around town, powering machinery, or moving commerical goods. Today, the only people who need come into contact with horses actually LIKE them.

                  I must say here that I think the COTH community over-emphasizes sad cases; there are days I wonder at the folks who seem to be sifting the world for deplorable CL or sad news items to post; I don't know if they just get off on bummers or what. There will ALWAYS be people who screw up with horses--as they do with their own kids.
                  If we can help, great--but I don't think its a sign of a moribund industry nation wide.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                    Sounds like your 4-H'ers are learning the disciplines of Horse Care and Stable Management, actually. And giving a horse a good home in the process.

                    As we all agreed at the very beginning of this thread, overbreeding of whatever breed or type ceases rapidly the minute the monetary reward for doing it is not there. Sounds like maybe that's happened to you and you're pissed off about it? Perfectly understandable.

                    Backyard pet ridden recreationally is the biggest "discipline" in this country, possibly the world. Most people have neither the desire, the time, nor the wherewithal to pursue upper-level competition in ANYTHING. Few of us aspire to sporting superlatives, and of those who do, 95% fail.

                    To me, the most positive outcome is for most horses most of the time to be owned, loved, and well-cared for regardless of the use to which they are put. We are moving toward that as we speak--today, abuse and neglect which was considered "business as usual" in the 70's is utterly societally unacceptable today. This is a PROBLEM?

                    Fear not that the horse industry is about to evaporate. I have read statistics that show clearly there are more horses in the U.S. today than there were at the dawn of the automobile age, and that's saying something. That they receive better, more educated care and live longer, healthier, happier lives for the most part goes without saying for the simple reason that owning and using them is a recreational pursuit, not a necessity for getting around town, powering machinery, or moving commerical goods. Today, the only people who need come into contact with horses actually LIKE them.

                    I must say here that I think the COTH community over-emphasizes sad cases; there are days I wonder at the folks who seem to be sifting the world for deplorable CL or sad news items to post; I don't know if they just get off on bummers or what. There will ALWAYS be people who screw up with horses--as they do with their own kids.
                    If we can help, great--but I don't think its a sign of a moribund industry nation wide.
                    There are plenty of studies showing that the standard of living in general for many and more and more as time passes is getting better.

                    We went from 2/3 of the world starving regularly to "only" 1/2 and less and less as time goes on, as more can access more resources, as societies stabilize, as more efficient technologies improve life for all.

                    Of course, that is reflected in how we know how and care for our animals today.
                    No surprise that.
                    Started way before any animal welfare and rights talk, that was a result of that improvement itself.
                    Animal welfare and later animal rights groups are the result of already improving conditions, riding that bandwagon, animal welfare mopping up after those that don't get on board with the new requirements, animal rights the extremes some then go to from that, like the often expressed sentiment "the world would be better for animals without humans", as if that made sense.

                    As our standard of living becomes better and better for more and more, we also raise generations tending to become their culture determined "rebels without a cause", following any one strange pursuit.

                    Humans still striving to survive don't have time for flights of fancy.
                    Pragmatics will be the ones to survive.

                    I think that is one difference.
                    We can and do love our horses intensely, but not everyone then wants them to be any other than the horses they are.
                    Case in point, while an incapacitated human still has so much else to live for, a horse generally just endures without understanding.
                    A fine line so many today tend to cross, I am afraid, as in so many "rescue" situations.
                    A ready made fantasy world for kids that one.
                    No wonder some become obsessed with that kind of thinking, losing perspective.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Bluey makes some excellent points. Nothing honks me off faster than when some 501 decides to blow like $20K of donated money on "saving" some downed, 35-year-old foundered wreck just because it's a reliable tear-and-wallet jerker to the uninformed. Far better to put the money into 2 dozen viable yearlings for whom a bale of hay is a game-changer; and who can go on to a useful, long life!

                      I'd like to address the OTTB question for a minute. I feel this is nothing more than a very, VERY old "trend" coming back around full-circle. When I was a kid, the local BNT would disappear for a week or two. Club members would nod knowingly and say he was "on a horse-buying trip." Well, he was. And a day or two after he came home, a van would roll up with some nice young TB "hunter prospects."

                      30 days with a pro on their backs (who was frequently also a Junior), and the folks would line up to buy them for roughly 10 times what BNT had paid; because he was on a mission to the backstretches of every track where he had connections from NJ to FL! And yes, those horses were the No. 1 source for sporthorses in those pre WB days. CANTER and the like only do it today in a more organized, systematic way.

                      A new generation is discovering you don't HAVE to "go to Europe" for most riding purposes. And for a lot of people, up to $3K is doable but $30K is sure as shootin' not. I can understand if you've been used to selling WB babies for five figures, you're gonna be as mad as a wet hen about this; sometimes reality bites. I sold a spectacular Oldenburg weanling out of here last year, ordered to take the first $2,500 offered by a "qualified home." 2 years from now and started, you'll be able to add a zero easily, and that's before she goes to the shows. The new owner loaded her up looking like a cat licking cream off her lips, and the filly got good ribbons at Devon on the line only a few months later.

                      But if the breeder (who was divesting in a hurry due to divorce) had been in a bigger hurry and that filly had run through a sale, she would only have pulled $140 bucks. The bottom line is that ANYTHING you may have to sell is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it on the day you need the money.

                      Which points up what I feel is this industry's absolute weakest link: There is an utter dearth, lack and shortage of young, motivated riders who want to work STARTING AND MAKING YOUNG HORSES. Unless you're talking about a racing TB, 90% of the value added to young horses comes from TRAINING and PREPARATION, NOT conformation and bloodlines. We need more trainers! REAL trainers, not 30-day wonders produced by Parelli games. Juniors reading this, if you can set yourself up in business backing, starting, and making young hunters and jumpers you will be able to write your own ticket! Let the rich-kids do the showing while you TRAIN the babies. Wish I weren't too old--I hire the "test-pilots" these days . . .

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post


                        I'd like to address the OTTB question for a minute. I feel this is nothing more than a very, VERY old "trend" coming back around full-circle. When I was a kid, the local BNT would disappear for a week or two. Club members would nod knowingly and say he was "on a horse-buying trip." Well, he was. And a day or two after he came home, a van would roll up with some nice young TB "hunter prospects."

                        30 days with a pro on their backs (who was frequently also a Junior), and the folks would line up to buy them for roughly 10 times what BNT had paid; because he was on a mission to the backstretches of every track where he had connections from NJ to FL! And yes, those horses were the No. 1 source for sporthorses in those pre WB days. CANTER and the like only do it today in a more organized, systematic way.
                        Great post and you touched on something that is important when you bring TBs into the conversation- Canter and the other rehoming programs do great work but more often than not they are moving the dregs. Canter Cuties are not the be all and end all of the TBs in their second careers. There is some very fancy horseflesh at your local track but chances are they will be spoken for when it is time to move on and they never make it on to a website.

                        Secondly, and I am restating your point for emphasis, innate talent is lovely but it is training that makes a horse valuable to the general riding public. Not everyone shows but I don't know what rider doesn't appreciate lots of buttons, good manners and uncomplicated rides. No they might not get to WEG but those horses can come out of the proverbial back yard and they will be worth their weight in gold to a big pool of prospective owners.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #92
                          Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post

                          Which points up what I feel is this industry's absolute weakest link: There is an utter dearth, lack and shortage of young, motivated riders who want to work STARTING AND MAKING YOUNG HORSES. Unless you're talking about a racing TB, 90% of the value added to young horses comes from TRAINING and PREPARATION, NOT conformation and bloodlines. We need more trainers! REAL trainers, not 30-day wonders produced by Parelli games. Juniors reading this, if you can set yourself up in business backing, starting, and making young hunters and jumpers you will be able to write your own ticket! Let the rich-kids do the showing while you TRAIN the babies. Wish I weren't too old--I hire the "test-pilots" these days . . .
                          Well... about that I can say quite a bit. Namely that people do not want to pay any kind of reasonable sum to have a young horse trained. By the time a potential trainer pays $ to rent/buy their own facility, pay for feed, bedding, etc and then charge clients, they have to charge a living rate. And people don't want that. In my experience, people want someone to start a horse in about 30 days. Just enough to show that the horse is not prone to dumping the rider, and generally agreeable to being ridden. Then they don't want to/can't afford to invest any more.

                          Even the people I know who are crack young horse starters, relied upon by FEI riders do sort out their difficult ones, etc, have had to resort to traveling and giving clinics because they just can't fill their barn with horses needing starting/sorting.

                          I have spoken with more than one farm owner that wanted to hire a full time young horse starter but as independent contractors. "Come start all our young 'uns but the risk is yours....."

                          It is just not accurate that you can 'write your own ticket.' No one wants to pay a living wage. Forget about being paid what you are really worth.

                          The only folks I know who can command decent $$ are the people who are experienced bronc riders who will climb on the stuff that has already dumped half a dozen competent riders.
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                          • Original Poster

                            #93
                            Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                            Bluey makes some excellent points. Nothing honks me off faster than when some 501 decides to blow like $20K of donated money on "saving" some downed, 35-year-old foundered wreck just because it's a reliable tear-and-wallet jerker to the uninformed. Far better to put the money into 2 dozen viable yearlings for whom a bale of hay is a game-changer; and who can go on to a useful, long life!
                            I have known some real stunners personally.

                            A friend of mine took in some PMU mares at the height of the PMU 'terror' when many Canadian farms were cutting back. One of the horses arrived preggo, and popped a few days later. My friend was in no way up to this, and by age 2 the filly was a bull shaped terror. Probably would not have happened if an experienced person was in charge, but with spoiling, the little beast became quite a problem.

                            If memory serves, the darling colicked at the age of 3. Had complications after surgery, and ate up the whole of the medical insurance allowance + some. Since my friend could not handle a rotten filly who'd been laid up for some time, she sent the horse to a rehab facility to get horse back into turnout, etc. While visiting, my friend decided to take the filly for a handwalk between two occupied turnouts. Filly blew up and demolished some fencing. My friend called the rescue and said, you can take her back.

                            I actually shipped the mare down to the Carolina's to some other folks. In short order, the darling took to chasing the husband out of the paddock. (Once he dumped her food she wanted to make sure he got out of her way quickly....) So once again, mare returned to rescue.

                            Now mare had developed a fantastic hernia after colic surgery, so the rescue decided to dump a big chunk of change repairing the hernia to make her more adoptable. At this point, my friend started to figure out how much $ had been put into this animal. And she was fairly horrified that the rescue was dumping $ into her for more surgery.

                            Apparently still NOT having learned her lesson..... my friend took in another horse from the rescue. An older horse that had worked a trail string on some farm in upstate NY. Now this old horse had been on that particular farm his entire life. He was quite horrified to be transferred to NJ. And the poor thing ran around the field miserable, whinnying, for months. He got to looking terrible, diarrhea, etc. Eventually she got him sorted, for about 3 months. Then his condition nosedived again and he died.

                            In the end, all they did was torment that poor old guy, and it was gross to witness.
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                            • Original Poster

                              #94
                              Originally posted by Laurierace View Post
                              95% of TBs don't race? Where the heck did you get that figure?
                              Random guess. The general idea being that most of the horses bred to race will not make it. (Keep in mind that every time CANTER lists a horse with the description "just does not want to race," they are affirming this perception.)
                              What do you think is a more accurate figure for the 'wash out' rate of racing TB?

                              I'd be very interested to know similar figures for racing QH and Arabians. If anyone here has been involved in those racing industries.

                              It would be interesting to know the 'wash out' rate among cutting, halter, etc, horses.

                              As for the breeding that comes under NO registration, that is exactly why we require a National horse registry in the USA. Until we can account for the whereabouts and final destination of every horse, we really do not know where they go or what they wind up doing.
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                              • Original Poster

                                #95
                                Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                                Sounds like your 4-H'ers are learning the disciplines of Horse Care and Stable Management, actually. And giving a horse a good home in the process.

                                As we all agreed at the very beginning of this thread, overbreeding of whatever breed or type ceases rapidly the minute the monetary reward for doing it is not there. Sounds like maybe that's happened to you and you're pissed off about it? Perfectly understandable.
                                I don't breed so I am not quite sure what you are getting at. I doubt I will ever personally be within reach of the sums of $ required for horse breeding.....

                                I don't think it is a good idea for young people to learn that their job is to clean up the garbage dumps of wealthy people. So multi millionaires breed thousands of horses, that they then don't want.... Then the folks of humbler means get fired up about caring for the horses that those wealthy folks bred but don't want any more.

                                Does that clarify?
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                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                  Random guess. The general idea being that most of the horses bred to race will not make it. (Keep in mind that every time CANTER lists a horse with the description "just does not want to race," they are affirming this perception.)
                                  I guess I gave you too much credit. You are just pulling figures out of the air based on prejudice. FWIW about 60 % of all registered TBs make it to the races and about half of those win. About 3 % of those are stakes winners and some miniscule percent are graded SWs. But there is a big difference between failure and a non stakes winner. Depending on the circuit that can be a very nice horse.

                                  The "doesn't want to race" can mean anything. IME it is usually the horses who are not competitive and go out there and are content to just run around who can be healthy and get culled quickly. That doesn't mean that they can't go on and do other things or they are otherwise worthless failures.

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #97
                                    Originally posted by Pronzini View Post
                                    I guess I gave you too much credit. You are just pulling figures out of the air based on prejudice.
                                    Very gracious of you to say so. I appreciate you keeping this discussion to concepts and not getting personal about it.
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                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                      As for the breeding that comes under NO registration, that is exactly why we require a National horse registry in the USA. Until we can account for the whereabouts and final destination of every horse, we really do not know where they go or what they wind up doing.
                                      Just exactly what business is it of yours what other people do with their horses?

                                      What gives you any right to know the whereabouts and final destination of every horse in the country?

                                      What. The. Hell......

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                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                        I don't think it is a good idea for young people to learn that their job is to clean up the garbage dumps of wealthy people. So multi millionaires breed thousands of horses, that they then don't want.... Then the folks of humbler means get fired up about caring for the horses that those wealthy folks bred but don't want any more.

                                        Does that clarify?
                                        It does clarify everything. You are filled with hubris and think you are entitled to control others who aren't as enlightened as you.

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                          my friend took in another horse from the rescue. An older horse that had worked a trail string on some farm in upstate NY. Now this old horse had been on that particular farm his entire life. He was quite horrified to be transferred to NJ. And the poor thing ran around the field miserable, whinnying, for months. He got to looking terrible, diarrhea, etc. Eventually she got him sorted, for about 3 months. Then his condition nosedived again and he died.

                                          In the end, all they did was torment that poor old guy, and it was gross to witness.
                                          Originally posted by caballero View Post
                                          It does clarify everything. You are filled with hubris and think you are entitled to control others who aren't as enlightened as you.
                                          You feel that tormenting that old horse at the end of his life was a generous and compassionate act?
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