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Long term consequences for the American horse market.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by cowgirljenn View Post
    I'm not surprised that it is hard to find homes for all those mustangs - it takes a special person to work with, and train, a horse who hasn't been touched by humans prior to being rounded up and sent to an auction (or several auctions). I have a mustang here for the rescue who I adore - but he's NOT the horse for everyone. He has a strong self-preservation instinct and his reaction is to flee first and ask questions later. I like his energy, but the run of the mill horse person wouldn't. And while I think he's cute as can be, he's not built to be a show horse. He's going to end up as a trail horse for an experienced rider or maybe a working ranch type horse. .
    I'd buy Government-issue dog food. Just sayin'. Easy solution.

    And you're right--I actually wouldn't mind working with a Mustang but I don't have the space or money to create the setup needed to house one straight from the holding pens. You need the right setup, time, willingness to work, and in general (I KNOW there are exceptions, but in general) want a really short horse (in comparison to those 'short' ottbs that are "only" 15.3), stocky, maybe not the prettiest mover, with no guarantees. It's not easy to find 450 homes ready and able for a horse like that, let alone 45,000.
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    • #62
      Having the HSUS determining what is good for the horse industry is like having Hitler deciding what is best for Israel.

      http://beefmagazine.com/blog/if-you-...e-hsus-check-0

      http://beefmagazine.com/blog/hsuss-p...ate-university

      Animal rights groups are really on the move lately.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Bluey View Post
        Having the HSUS determining what is good for the horse industry is like having Hitler deciding what is best for Israel.

        http://beefmagazine.com/blog/if-you-...e-hsus-check-0

        http://beefmagazine.com/blog/hsuss-p...ate-university

        Animal rights groups are really on the move lately.
        Agreed but its clearly happening ..while everyone else is busy arguing on horse boards over semantics they are busy putting the $$ and screws to the law makers.
        "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

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        • #64
          The market is adjusting due to the economy.
          There will always be low priced, high priced, culled horses, and rescues.
          Less horses are being bred.
          Someday soon, the BLM may actually 'manage' the horses they are paid to manage.

          What are you refering to with the word 'consequences'?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
            Yes thank you. I am pondering these notions as well. I know some 'older' folks who volunteer mucking, etc at horsey rescues to get their feel good horse time. But they aren't dumping tons of $ into it.
            My aging momma is someone who would benefit greatly from volunteering to do the physical scut work at some horsey operation. I fully intend on volunteering her when she retires and tells me about her 10 hour marathon viewing of "Judge Judy."

            Oh, and another phenomenon. Sometimes I think that the reason folks get into rescuing horses or the Earth is that it doesn't require that they bail out people, people who are Not Like Them.

            Someone like my grandmother who gave to several charities yearly for half a century might have put Sierra Club on her list, but if you asked her if she'd put a horse rescue ahead of, say, feeding and educating poor people, she'd say, "Absolutely not"-- with conviction and with a "walk the walk" commitment to charity.
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            • #66
              The ones that get me are the rescues where the horses never leave, but they still beg for donations. I know of someone who volunteers (a child, at that) at a 'rescue' and has even suckered me into some of her fundraising for them, but if you really get into it and look on their website... the horses don't change. So... what's up with that? Maybe they rescued the first 8 or 10 horses but now that's it, she's just going to keep them and expect other people to pay for them?

              If that's the case, then I'm going to have to start a website for the CL pony that my DH just HAD to have (because we had to "save" it) and no I didn't come on COTH and ask anyone else to go get it, or chip in... I am touched by those threads but mystified a bit at the same time. But we don't all handle things the same way, we don't all think the same, and that's really OK... that's what makes life a lot less boring, isn't it? So I'm really fine with it.

              And I'm totally old enough to remember when cans of Alpo said "horse meat" right on the box and on the label. It bothered me a little at first when I learned to read (I was horse-crazy from the womb) but my mom explained to me about old, unrideable, injured, crazy, and unwanted horses and how dogs have to eat too, y'know.

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              • #67
                Another fad worth mentioning is people selling horses to a perminate home. They are allowed to sell but your not.
                Just like our eyes, our hearts have a way of adjusting to the dark.--Adam Stanley

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                • Original Poster

                  #68
                  Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                  Ah, I agree with that 100%.

                  Mainly it's a combo of the saturation of the internet/instant info and the saturation of the Rescue Brigade.

                  I'm all for helping out animals in dire situations. Otherwise my eye-rolly-muscles are all strained from all the ZOMG I'm Crying, SAVE It crapola.

                  I'm not so sure it's having an affect on sales prices per se...there's a lot more flapping gums than flapping wallets on the issue. And we're seeing it online...it's not as prevelent when you remove the audience the rescuers are looking for.

                  And I'll just stop now before the Halo Polishers start making voodoo dolls of me to beat with their curb chains.
                  HAH!! Yes, maybe you are right about that. The internet does allow for a LOT of noise to be made without much real action going on.

                  If anyone here participated in the Horse Boy thread on dressage, there was much criticizing of the man running the program. When he offered a group phone call to answer people's questions personally, nobody showed up but me..... Much flapping of keyboards indeed. Without so much as the courtesy to speak with the man directly when it came to it. That was pretty interesting.
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                  • Original Poster

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Beam Me Up View Post
                    I think that there are a number of activities that we might be wrongly conflating as rescue though--even if they are somewhat related. Broker lots use the rescue tag lines but are really just horse dealers, and track listing services are neither rescues nor dealers as they don't take ownership or take part in the transaction (I still don't understand the OP's issue with those).
                    I have no issue with the organizations themselves. BUT some of their supporters are pretty irritating with their non stop pressure pitches of horses for sale on those sites. The eventing board is going to be come the OTTB rescue board in another year or two.... The powers that be at COTH have provided a 'Giveaway' section and a they (purport) to have a 'no advertising' policy. Yet the Thoroughbred Mafia have done an admirable job of circumventing the rules and developing a TB sales market on COTH.

                    The threads looking to 'emergency sell' horses from individual COTHers who are in dire financial straits make no sense either.
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                    • Original Poster

                      #70
                      Originally posted by oldpony66 View Post
                      The ones that get me are the rescues where the horses never leave, but they still beg for donations. I know of someone who volunteers (a child, at that) at a 'rescue' and has even suckered me into some of her fundraising for them, but if you really get into it and look on their website... the horses don't change. So... what's up with that? Maybe they rescued the first 8 or 10 horses but now that's it, she's just going to keep them and expect other people to pay for them?

                      If that's the case, then I'm going to have to start a website for the CL pony that my DH just HAD to have (because we had to "save" it)
                      OH yeah!! That's a favorite of mine.

                      Here's how it works. You get a good handful of horses you are really fond of, but can't really afford. Then you start a 501c3 (or just tell folks you are in the process of applying....) Then, if you are gifted with gab, prevarication, and pity parties, you proceed to drum up as much $ as you can towards the care and feeding of your 'rescue' or 'sanctuary' animals. Your critters need caretakers, so some of the $ has to go toward a salary for you, and the mortgage/rental of the farm and house you are currently living in anyway......
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                      • Original Poster

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Hulk View Post
                        Another fad worth mentioning is people selling horses to a perminate home. They are allowed to sell but your not.
                        That BS kills me. They don't want it but you have to promise to keep it forever. What a crock of crapola!!!
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                        • #72
                          Lots of good points of discussion here. I have no idea what the answer is. Less breeding of animals who don't "deserve" it, would be one idea: no horses with crappy conformation, crappy feet, or mares who "need to be bred to calm them down" or need to be bred because "she'd be a good mom."

                          I also think that considering euthanasia for a horse you cannot keep anymore due to soundness problems (or unfixable behavior problems) is not a bad way to go - why pass that off to someone else? I had a horse whom I put down because he was dangerous. I tried trainers, saddle fitting, chiro, acupuncture, shoes, supplements, various tests for various problems, animal communicator, etc. At the end of the day, this horse was just plain dangerous and I couldn't trust him around other people (he bit two people) so I put him down. He wasn't old, he was retired and living in my pasture, but I just couldn't take the chance that he'd hurt a guest or a house sitter or me/Mr. PoPo. And I certainly would never have tried to pass him off to someone else. I agonized over it but it was the right thing to do.

                          And what about the racing/breaking down of young horses (or horses in any industry who are used up at a young age because of a heavy workload before they are done growing)?

                          Then, of course, there is the growing cost - people who may have been able to afford it a couple years ago are finding the cost of everything horse-related going up - hay, board, shoes, gas, etc. - so they want to get out.

                          I admit that I am a pessimist - I often advise people against getting a horse for their back yard because to me they are so much more than just a pet. You can't just get a horse and throw it in your pasture and hope for the best - they require so much knowledge to be cared for properly.

                          I have a mustang who was "rescued" from the BLM (check out my blog linked below to see him!). I didn't start him but I got him as a barely-broke horse who could be saddled and bridled but didn't know what I would consider "basics" as a riding horse (although he'd go out on the trails with other horses) but had been used as a pack horse. As someone else mentioned, I find him to be a special kind of horse. He's great 99% of the time but if his instincts kick in and tell him to save himself, he will do his very best to follow his gut, regardless of the person on his back. That being said, I have taken him to a few dressage shows, have done a CTR with him, gone XC schooling, done a bit of jumping, and trail ride him a lot. I would definitely consider another mustang in the future, but I like that kind of challenge - it isn't for everyone, though . . . and certainly NOT for someone with little horse experience.

                          There was actually a group here who was providing free (? or at least low-cost) euthanasia for horses so that they wouldn't end up dumped somewhere or starved to death. I actually thought that wasn't a bad idea.
                          "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran

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                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            via Mike Matson http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/pr...end-at-the-end

                            More practical, common sense wisdom from the British.
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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by mvp View Post
                              Sometimes I think that the reason folks get into rescuing horses or the Earth is that it doesn't require that they bail out people, people who are Not Like Them.
                              That is wrong, how?

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by caballero View Post
                                That is wrong, how?
                                It's wrong to put the interests of needy animals ahead of those of equally needy human beings.

                                Frankly, I like the average horse's mind and ethics better than I do the average person's mind. But too damned bad. Human beings know they are being shafted or abandoned or whatever in a way that animals don't and that deepens their suffering. So even people like me need to care about needy people in front of animals or an utterly non sentient planet.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

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                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                  It's wrong to put the interests of needy animals ahead of those of equally needy human beings.

                                  Frankly, I like the average horse's mind and ethics better than I do the average person's mind. But too damned bad. Human beings know they are being shafted or abandoned or whatever in a way that animals don't and that deepens their suffering. So even people like me need to care about needy people in front of animals or an utterly non sentient planet.
                                  I wouldn't put it that way. There are a lot of people out there who thinks rescuing a pet makes them a good person--that one good deed makes them somehow excuses a plethora of bad ones. A lot of the most self centered, self-righteous, and nasty people I know are people who spend their time and money rescuing horses. That's not what makes them good people.

                                  I dislike the way people use these animals to make themselves look good. The animals deserve better than that. And I find it ironic that these people wouldn't spare a cookie for the homeless but they'll shell out hundreds for an animal to sit in a pasture because it can't be ridden and think they're doing good for the world.

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                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by ladyfreckles View Post
                                    I wouldn't put it that way. There are a lot of people out there who thinks rescuing a pet makes them a good person--that one good deed makes them somehow excuses a plethora of bad ones. A lot of the most self centered, self-righteous, and nasty people I know are people who spend their time and money rescuing horses. That's not what makes them good people.

                                    I dislike the way people use these animals to make themselves look good. The animals deserve better than that. And I find it ironic that these people wouldn't spare a cookie for the homeless but they'll shell out hundreds for an animal to sit in a pasture because it can't be ridden and think they're doing good for the world.
                                    This "people first" argument is older than the hills and twice as rocky. The relative values we all place on people, animals, material objects etc. is a highly individual thing. The truth is that everyone has the right to let their own conscience dictate to what purpose they wish to devote a percentage of their disposable income.

                                    Just as every situation with an adoptable horse or pet has a backstory, so do those of distressed humans. The difference is that the fate of the animal is by and large out of its control, it is an innocent being at mercy of circumstance, whereas human outcomes have very complicated webs of family origin, education, life decisions, personal choices and relationships that may or may not include addictions, criminal behavior, mental or physical illness or just plain stupidity. In any case, turning that person's life around so they can be "just like us" is beyond the scope of most people's, frequently anyone's, personal powers. And most of us aren't positioned to take in the homeless or adopt a child from Africa.

                                    A horse, cat or dog on the other hand responds in very gratifying ways to as little as good food, acceptable shelter, and sympathetic attention. Pet adoption is also within the financial range of the vast majority.

                                    Can it be taken too far? Absolutely. There is such a thing as a pathological "rescuer" personality type recognized by mental health professionals. These people frequently have a pattern of falling into abusive or diminishing-returns relationships of all kinds because their hero-need causes them to take on recipes for unhappiness. "Animal collectors" fall in here, too, and "over-rescuing" a boatload of useless horses is a recipe for disaster.

                                    As for the use someone puts a horse to: I've known many, many people who in their minds consider themselves "riders," and their horse owned for "riding," though they may not have saddled their pet (for that is what it is) for 20 years. This is more frequent than not in people over 60. Why should anyone have a problem with that? If someone has the money to take proper care of a horse who has the life of a pasture ornament (most horses would probably consider this their dream, optimal existence!) they are still putting dollars into the "horse industry" via feed, farrier, vet, etc. so whatever on Earth is the problem?

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                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                      It's wrong to put the interests of needy animals ahead of those of equally needy human beings.

                                      Frankly, I like the average horse's mind and ethics better than I do the average person's mind. But too damned bad. Human beings know they are being shafted or abandoned or whatever in a way that animals don't and that deepens their suffering. So even people like me need to care about needy people in front of animals or an utterly non sentient planet.
                                      I was talking about your phrase "people who Are Not Like Them" Why did you make that distinction?

                                      And how is it that you think you have the morality to ordain what others should do with their charity?

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                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
                                        I have no issue with the organizations themselves. BUT some of their supporters are pretty irritating with their non stop pressure pitches of horses for sale on those sites. The eventing board is going to be come the OTTB rescue board in another year or two.... The powers that be at COTH have provided a 'Giveaway' section and a they (purport) to have a 'no advertising' policy. Yet the Thoroughbred Mafia have done an admirable job of circumventing the rules and developing a TB sales market on COTH.
                                        I don't see many, if any, OTTB "rescue" threads on the eventing board. There are many threads pointing out particularly nice horses on CANTER, FLF, and other non-profit sites. I like them, because it's interesting hearing the comments on pedigree, and the conformation analysis. I really don't understand your issue with these threads, and why, if you don't like them, you not only read them, but feel compelled to come on and criticize the people posting.

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                                        • #80
                                          I read the OP as saying "You should spend money on horses that I breed." All the rest sounds like confetti hiding the magic trick.

                                          I will never, ever cast aspersions on people who work hard, honestly trying to help animals with common sense and planning. If it weren't for CANTER, I wouldn't have the amazing sporthorse I have now.

                                          Why does it affect you if someone gets a horse from a local rescue rather than from you? Why does it offend you so? It's not the horse's fault that he ended up where he did.

                                          I personally value just about any animals' lives over people -- the latter as a species have no problem crushing anything between themselves and personal gain. This is probably why I am a wildlife biologist, LOL. That is the point of personal values -- THEY ARE PERSONAL and we all think we are right.

                                          The person who said you can judge a nation by how they treat their animals was not wrong. You can tell much about a person's capacity for compassion, empathy, and generosity. It is not a fault to exercise these characters within the parameters of reason. And there is no all or nothing -- you can be compassionate AND be a strong, competitive horseperson with the drive to learn more every day. *gasp* What a thought. This thread baffles me....
                                          Life doesn't have perfect footing.

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