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DAYS END RESCUE..OOK AT HOW MUCH THEY PAY THEMSELVES Most of the workers volunteer

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
    U of Davis accepted and published a study by a H.S.U.S. and D.E.F.H.R. sponsored academic ...
    Now there's an interesting nugget of a claim in amongst all that, DEFHR sponsors one or more academics? Got any evidence to back that up?

    PS. If you call it by its usual abbreviated name UC Davis, people will know what you are talking about.
    Last edited by tangledweb; Jan. 24, 2013, 10:55 PM. Reason: spelling

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #62
      Dial up for a computer is a problem and also I was unaware that a Title should not be put in capital letters. Shows how much grammar has changed over the years. Tital, Capitals, Next header in regular and then use titles to accentuate.

      I will take counsel from you as you have more posting experience than I
      The Elephant in the room

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #63
        The author and credits were on their website. U of D is also acceptable however I will remember to use it as UC Davis for the future. Thank you
        The Elephant in the room

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #64
          No comments about the substance...? Why am I not surprised. Usually when FACTS are presented..and in this case there is a bit of reading involved, the two liners tend to become bored or "MOVE ON" to other pressing issues...like pretty pink halters on a grey horse.

          Interesting. When posters demand proof, facts etc and direct quotes are taken from the paper submitted the thread goes mysteriously quiet.
          The Elephant in the room

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
            No comments about the substance...? Why am I not surprised. Usually when FACTS are presented..and in this case there is a bit of reading involved, the two liners tend to become bored or "MOVE ON" to other pressing issues...like pretty pink halters on a grey horse.

            Interesting. When posters demand proof, facts etc and direct quotes are taken from the paper submitted the thread goes mysteriously quiet.
            I think that it is best to just put information out there and let people make of it what they want.
            When there are questions and debates, then further with more information.
            If none is forthcoming, wait for next time.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
              The author and credits were on their website. U of D is also acceptable however I will remember to use it as UC Davis for the future. Thank you
              No, it is "The University of California, Davis" so U of C might be valid but nobody else calls it that so nobody will know what you are talking about. It is not the University of Davis.

              More importantly, you claimed DEFHR sponsors one or more academics? Got any evidence to back that up?

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                Interesting. When posters demand proof, facts etc and direct quotes are taken from the paper submitted the thread goes mysteriously quiet.
                Kind of like when I politely asked for evidence for your claim that DEFHR is raising money claiming it is for horses under their care in Maryland and instead spending it on sponsoring academics in California you mysteriously go quiet?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                  Very accurate and informative Analise. As you stated before, you were the P.R. volunteer during the Canterbury case and you were "defending and writing on behalf of Gentle Giants"

                  At Gentle Giants when Marsha was there inspecting her horses, there were inexcess of 25 volunteers on a week day including the one who verbally abused her. And was it not on the GG website and blog that a reference to her as a Jeffrey Dalmer and a Hilter was made and posted?

                  You were made aware of that and yet you refused to pull those down as did your boss.
                  While I did volunteer to post things on behalf of Gentle Giants in various forums I have never had access to posting in the blog and it was never me posting there. A fact you continue to ignore when I have pointed it out.

                  For the record, here is the quote Fairfax is referring to (which he himself quoted in a thread here in May of last year which is how I found it), I can not find the original quote made by Christine through google, but it is probably either somewhere in the Gentle Giants blog or their Facebook page around a year ago, if anyone wants to try to dig it up.

                  Gentle Giants Draft Horse Rescue: I can understand how traumatizing it must be when someone who is idolized in a certain field falls from grace. No one wanted to believe Kobe Bryant was a rapist, or OJ Simpson went on a murdering spree, or Michael Jackson was a molester, or Whitney Houston was a junky, or Britney Spears was batshit crazy.... but even so. Heroes fall. I don't understand with the mounds and mounds and mounds of evidence how anyone can sit by and defend what this woman did with even one breath. They should be HORRIFIED, BETRAYED, and INCONSOLABLE. Sure, Ms. Parkinson might be NICE. Ya know what? I've heard Jeffrey Dahmer was quite charming, too.
                  Draw your own conclusions.

                  In fact...it was GG that clearly stated there was no such a condition as old age anorexia in equines...DEFHR are now disputing that and claiming THAT is why they, after two years are unable to "fatten them up" .

                  Analise...you already knew about Parisio vs U of D as you requested information on it before...
                  If people are looking in GG's blog, they'll find the post where they talk about how the claim people were making that Marsha's horses were "skinny because they were old" is a bit ludicrous since old does not automatically = skinny and they used one of the old horses they had re-habbed on the farm as an example. I cannot comment on what DEFHR is or is not saying about fattening up the Arabians as I have not seen that nor am I privy to how they do their rehab.

                  And now that you mention it and with the information you posted, I do recall the case and having asked for information on it previously. I just could not find it this morning (and with the Parisio spelling, I still can't find any records on it but I guess I might need an account to some law database somewhere?).
                  The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
                  Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #69
                    I did mention that the academic information was on the U of D website. That is where we got the information from

                    Never commented about the money not going to Maryland horses however I would like to point out DEFHR has attended and put on numerous seminars and training for AC's and also Police.

                    They even attended (by invitation) the Arabian Horse Convention a few years ago where their buddy, Carol Darnell made a donation to them. That will never occur again.
                    The Elephant in the room

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                      I did mention that the academic information was on the U of D website. That is where we got the information from
                      It's a big website. Where?

                      I'll make it easier. There are only three named authors on "Minimum Standards of Horse Care in the State of California" http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/sp_standards.cfm

                      Grant Miller
                      Carolyn Stull
                      Gregory Ferraro

                      Which one is sponsored by DEFHR? How much for?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I'm just starting to read the thread and maybe this has been said already but I wanted to throw out there that I have family not far from where Day's End is located, so I am pretty familiar with that area. In fact, I seriously considered taking a job in that area many years ago and ultimately did not because it is crazy expensive to live there. 82k does seem high, but it's not a cheap area to live in either so that could be a factor in the salary. I have no link to Day's End other than I know where it is located, but I don't donate to them or know much about them so I'm truly not defending them, just saying that I know that part of Maryland is a really expensive place to live and that may be how they figured out that number.
                        *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          If anybody wants to donate to help horses www.lahorserescue.com and www.teamkeen.com (Remember Me Horse Rescue) are helping starving horses in Louisiana from Ryder River Ridge Farm. Louisiana Horse Rescue is all volunteer. These horses were starved and some have died.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            I don't know. It was mentioned in a reference to me and I remember I verified it from their webpage. That page has been changed numerous times as per the note to me from Parasio:

                            The document available is not a revised edition of the Minimum Standards of Care for Horses, however, one of the big wigs at UCD said in a letter to the California Horse Counsel, that they had revised the Standard after a highly charged meeting with the horse industry on May 10. There is a revised edition, (May 19) but it isn't simple to find, and they apparently haven't bothered to put it on the public website.

                            Verification is important to carry the argument that UCD is out of touch with the community they serve and seem far more concerned with the opinions of the folks at HSUS then us, the horse owners.


                            That was in 2011 and the website has been revised numerous times since then.

                            The following is an evaluation of these minimal care standards"


                            8 July 2011
                            Dr. Harry Werner
                            Chair, AAEP Welfare Committee

                            Dear Dr. Werner,

                            Per your request, we have reviewed Minimum Standards of Horse Care in the State of California published by the Center for Equine Health at the School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis. The publication serves to assist law enforcement officials with equine abuse, neglect, and cruelty cases by establishing minimum legal standards required for the care of horses in California. The AAEP was asked to review the document by the California Horse Council.
                            There is no doubt the authors are intent on protecting the welfare of horses in the state of California, but since the document sets forth minimum legal standards, rather than guidelines, we have considerable concern over the use of words and terms such as “must’, “neglect”, “failure to provide shelter” and “minimum legal standards required” that are found throughout the document and could be easily misinterpreted by persons not familiar with equine husbandry. We are also concerned that because many of the standards are unsubstantiated by research, some well run horse facilities that do not meet the published “standards” may be at risk of legal action. It is unfortunate the booklet was not peer reviewed as there are many experts in the area of equine welfare that could have provide valuable input. We have outlined below the areas with which we found the greatest disagreement in the order in which they appear in the booklet.

                            Page 1: Abuse and Cruelty – Includes the intentional act, omission or neglect whereby unnecessary or unjustifiable physical pain or suffering is caused or permitted. Examples include poking with a sharp stick or an electrified device, beating, intentionally scarring or poisoning a horse, use of excessive restraint such as tethering or confining movement for long periods of time, or allowing a horse to be chased by predators.
                            Comment: Scarring could include branding which is an acceptable form of permanent identification. Tethering or confining movement for long periods of time could include hobbling, tying a horse to a horse trailer overnight, and/or confining it in a tie or straight stall.
                            Page 8: Under Profile of Animal Abusers it states “Animal abusers can be of either gender, any age, and/or fall within any socioeconomic group. They tend to include individuals that look upon their animals as property with which they are entitled to do as they please.
                            Comment: Although we understand the authors’ intent, placing horse owners that look upon their animals as property in the profile of animal abusers is inaccurate. Most individuals in the horse industry that raise horses for income and/or business use consider them property. Viewing a horse as property does not necessarily lead to abuse and therefore, the statement is misleading.
                            Page 13: “continuous access to water”.
                            Comment: Although continuous access to water is desirable, it is not an abuse if it is provided periodically in adequate amounts. Research in PMU mares has demonstrated that offering water continuously resulted in no more consumption than does offering water every eight hours. Many performance and race horses have water and hay withdrawn for at least four hours prior to competition with no ill effects.
                            Page18: A body condition score of 5-7 is considered ideal for health horses.
                            Comment: Most horses in competition fall into a Henneke BCS of 4-5 and are usually the healthiest and best cared for horses. The BCS range should be lowered or broadened to include a 4 score. There is as much concern, and perhaps more, with obesity as it is detrimental to a horse’s health and will often lead to more serious medical conditions than being thin. Nothing in the document addresses the fat and often foundered horse.
                            Page 25: Minimum Standards for Shelter
                            1. Shelter in the form of a structure must be available for horses in cases of extreme weather conditions (below freezing temperatures, excessively high temperatures and/or humidity, high winds, excessive rainfall), regardless of the horse’s age, breed or body condition.
                            Comment: Although the need for shelter is important in adverse weather conditions, the need for a constructed shelter is debatable and should not be a requirement. Ranch horses and many pastured horses do quite well when provided a wind break in lieu of a building. Below freezing is not extreme weather and horses do well in temperatures far below freezing. A natural disaster recommendation by most experts is to turn horses loose during high winds to avoid the risk of collapsing buildings.
                            The minimum floor space per confined horses is 2.5 times the height of the horses (at the withers) squared. (See table below for calculations).
                            Comment: The stall size minimal standards appear to be subjective and based on one paper published by Raabymagle and Ladewig in the Journal of Veterinary Science in 2006. The study indicated that duration of sternal recumbency was longer and the frequency of rolling was greater in large box stalls (2.5 x height of the horse) vs. small box stalls (1.5 x height of the horse). The study concluded that box size was not the only factor affecting these behaviors and observations of the resting behavior (sternal recumbency vs. lying flat vs. rapid eye movement [REM] sleep) of horses was necessary to make recommendations on the minimal size of stalls for horses. Today, most stalls accommodate standard barn construction with the standard stall being 12’ x12’, although stalls that are 10’ x 10’ to 12’ x 15’ are not uncommon. The standards cited in the booklet would place the vast majority of horse operations at risk for legal action and are not substantiated by multiple scientific studies.
                            Page 27:
                            5. Enclosures must be free of fire or electrical hazards such as exposed wires, electrical sockets or light switches that could cause fire or electrocution.
                            Comment: Recommendation could be misconstrued to suggest that structures need be devoid of electrical sockets or switches.
                            6. Outdoor pen type enclosures should be cleaned of manure and other waste daily.
                            Comment: Cleaning outdoor pens on a daily basis is difficult during some weather conditions and unnecessary in the vast majority of circumstances.
                            7. Horses should not be tethered for more than 2 hours at a time. If tied for a period of longer than 1 hour, horses should be provided water as well as shelter protection from the elements.
                            Comment: There is no scientific basis for this standard. Many horses attending weekend trail rides, rodeos or horse shows are tied (tethered) to horse trailers, fences and/or stall walls for hours at a time with no adverse result. Providing water every hour has already been discussed. A shelter is not necessary except in cases of extreme weather conditions.
                            Page 30:
                            2. Removal of dirt and debris from hooves twice weekly greatly reduces the chances of hoof infection.
                            Comment: This is a subjective recommendation unsupported by reference information and would put many working horses out of compliance.
                            3. Vaccinations for prevention of tetanus, the various forms of equine viral encephalitis, rabies and upper respiratory viruses should be considered routine preventive health practices.
                            Comment: Vaccination schedules should be based on individual horse requirements and dependent upon potential exposure. Not all horses require upper respiratory vaccines.

                            Page 31:
                            6. Horses should be groomed at least two times per week.
                            Comment: Although grooming is desirable whenever feasible, the lack of it is not a welfare issue and should not be mandated. Many horses such as broodmares, ranch horses, horses in retirement or rescue facilities are pastured and are very healthy despite receive very little grooming.
                            Page 35:
                            4. Horses must not be transported continuously for durations longer than 24 hours.
                            Comment: The federal standards for transport to slaughter mandates transport no longer than 28 hours. In the committee’s opinion, duration of transport should be balanced with the danger of offloading horses in stables they are unaccustomed to that may expose them to infectious diseases. Stopping the transport every 6 hours for 30 minutes has been shown to provide horses rest equal to unloading them. Access to hay and water and the ability to lower their heads can be provided in the trailer without offloading.
                            5. The stall dimensions in the trailer have no scientific reference to support them.

                            Best regards,

                            Midge Leitch, VMD Larry Bramlage, DVM

                            Doug Corey, DVM Tom Lenz, DVM


                            Hope this provides some explaination as to why horse owners must be aware of behind the scene legal struggles to gain control by those who so not support horse ownership no breeding.
                            The Elephant in the room

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #74
                              A correction: I stated Marsha had sold two horses for a substantial amount. The correct statement should have been that two horses OF HER BREEDING were sold by another breeder for a substantial amount. Marsha has not sold any horses
                              The Elephant in the room

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                I don't know. It was mentioned in a reference to me and I remember I verified it from their webpage. That page has been changed numerous times
                                Oh, so it's not that you made up an improbable story, it's that it's true but all the evidence has disappeared? How convenient.

                                Let's pick another improbably story from the same paragraph.

                                Originally posted by Fairfax
                                This study was taken from an R.E.M. study of shetland ponies in Great Britain. The study had absolutely NOTHING to do with correct size stall for horses.
                                I presume you are referring to this paper?
                                Zeeb, K. 1981. Basic behavioral needs of the horse. Appl. Anim.
                                Ethol. 7:391–392.

                                Can you quote the paragraph that says their experiment was done on shetlands?

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Making a living wage working for a horse rescue. Are they hiring?
                                  Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                                  Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #77
                                    It was stated in the rebuttal provided by the California Horse Counsel. The same group that I just printed exerpts provided to me from a letter.

                                    The study was taken from Britain and that was a footnote on their original paper.

                                    There is another thread somewhere on COTH that I remember had all of that provided.

                                    Of course, you from Maryland...are going to be antagonistic...Are you from HSUS, DEFHR or Equirey ?

                                    You don't want to believe it...that is your decision. For those of us who have watched, investigated the abuses and lies and yes...they are documented ESPECIALLY regarding the Canterbury case which will be back in the courts with a lawsuit against the above groups in 2013.....lets see how the courts stand on it.

                                    I provided statements to demonstrate that Davis has changed their website and called it a revision.

                                    I have thousands of emails and documentations to go through regarding the cases and at some point I know the REM information will surface or someone can find it here on COTH.

                                    I remember when Dr. Henneke printed his letter to the industry and it was presented here, there was a group from Maryland who claimed it was forged...then they stated he was NOT a true Vet and on and on and on. I spoke with Don and he told me that only ONE person from COTH called the number provided by him to call him at the University in Texas. I think most of the readers learn quickly there is an active group of you who disclaim everything

                                    Bottom line...Parisio vs Davis...they lost. Anne county vs Canterbury...they lost as did HSUS, DEFHR, GG etc et al.

                                    On a side note....where do you stand on demanding all stalls be changed in size and no horse facility able to comply so shutting down? Where do you stand on the misuse of the Hen Scale as stated by the man who developed it? Where do you stand on a representative of HSUS who conducted a seizure CAUGHT by the courts asking the rescues to change the weight evaluations? Where do you stand on the notes provided by DEFHR upon the release of the horses clearly documenting the injections of hormone supressants when they did not own the horses and had not won the case...and then lying about it? Where do you stand on the maniuplation by the county and HSUS in blocking the sale of the property for operating money after the crash of 2009? Where do you stand on the threats made against vets who stated they would support Canterbury? Where do you stand on DEFHR conducting training seminars for AC and police stating it is okay to LIE as they can be corrects and training ACs to ALWAYS state this is the worse case of abuse they have ever seen? (this was documented by the man from New Hampshire and was printed in Modern Arabian. Where do you stand in the subsequent "raid" on his property looking for abuse and the AC lying in her reports as rebutted by both the vet and farrier?

                                    And where do you stand on refusing the READ my previous post where this was stated:

                                    The stall size minimal standards appear to be subjective and based on one paper published by Raabymagle and Ladewig in the Journal of Veterinary Science in 2006. The study indicated that duration of sternal recumbency was longer and the frequency of rolling was greater in large box stalls (2.5 x height of the horse) vs. small box stalls (1.5 x height of the horse). The study concluded that box size was not the only factor affecting these behaviors and observations of the resting behavior (sternal recumbency vs. lying flat vs. rapid eye movement [REM] sleep) of horses was necessary to make recommendations on the minimal size of stalls for horses. Today, most stalls accommodate standard barn construction with the standard stall being 12’ x12’, although stalls that are 10’ x 10’ to 12’ x 15’ are not uncommon. The standards cited in the booklet would place the vast majority of horse operations at risk for legal action and are not substantiated by multiple scientific studies. Page 27:


                                    Why bother to post and answer your questions when the information is right here....so NOPE it was not the Zeeb study of 1981
                                    The Elephant in the room

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #78
                                      VILE is all I can say. Along with the vicious volunteers at G.G.. Rude, Foul language when even your "leader" stated Mrs. Parkinson was a kind lady even under these conditions. I would still like to be able to identify the young lady (I am kind) who spit on Mrs. Parkinson when she approached the mare the girl was holding onto THAT BELONGED TO MRS PARKINSON

                                      Analise...you also stated repeatedly that you were ONLY a volunteer until you had to come clean and identify yourself as the PR mouthpiece of GG and that you also lived out of state and hadn't even been involved other than on a minimal scale.

                                      The Queen was not amused and neither was the Queen Anne County Court Judge.
                                      The Elephant in the room

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #79
                                        Just to share a little story for the readers. When Stacy from HSUS returned the pictures to the rescues telling them to downgrade the scores she accidently sent the same notes and pictures not only to Marsha's lawyers but also the DA.

                                        I think Tangle already knew that...which is why she has shied away from it.
                                        The Elephant in the room

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          See this is what a straight answer to a specific question looks like.

                                          You say:
                                          Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                          Of course, you from Maryland...are going to be antagonistic...Are you from HSUS, DEFHR or Equirey ?
                                          I say, "No I am not now and never have been part of HSUS, DEFHR or The Equiery. I have occasionally donated small amounts to DEFHR, and I often read The Equiery"

                                          See how easy that was? You asked a question. I did not cut and paste 50 lines of something that does not answer the question. I gave a specific answer.

                                          Now you try.

                                          I say "quote me the paragraph from the original study that created the stall size recommendation where it says their experiments were performed only on shetland ponies"

                                          You say ...

                                          Comment

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