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Difficulties in finding a registered Quarter horse. Is this normal?

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  • #21
    There's also the genetically related disorder where there's a defect in the collagen and the skin sloughs off - can't remember the acronym/name for that, but it's in the Poco Bueno line, which I would think is rarely found in racing QH pedigrees, so probably not an issue.

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    • #22
      That's HERDA, or HC I think, Sandy. No I only mentioned HYPP because IIRC the AQHA is no longer permitting homozygous horses to be registered, but they'll permit heterozygous horses to be registered, which is sort of self defeating really. What I thought when I read OP was that OP was under the impression that unregistered QH were all capable of being registered and people weren't getting around to it, not quite so always.
      Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
      Incredible Invisible

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Originally posted by vtdobes View Post
        I CANNOT stand this! The people who are too lazy or cheap to keep a registered animals papers up to date ruin it for the people who come along and buy the horse and then want the horse in their name. And then they get screwed because either they can't or it costs them way more than it should have if everyone had done their part.
        My neighbor and I just talked about this. I actually found a cute QH, taller and I was getting ready to drive 3 hours to see him (one way) and then she reminded me to ask about the Transfer. I did and nope, they never got the transfer form sent in and no longer have it. Did have his AQHA papers though. I logged into my AQHA account and looked him up. Only the breeder and original owner listed. After doing a Google search, I was pretty sure I found the original owner. Found a somewhat current ad for another QH for sale on a horse site, same name listed. Called but still have not gotten a response. Doubt I will since the horse is 9 years old and the last owner documented was in 2004.

        So yes, it is frustrating that because one owner did not do the paperwork, a future owner that does want to pay the fee and do the paperwork to get the horse in their name, cannot.

        Maybe the AQHA should lower the fee or at least make it so you do not have to be a member to send in the forms ( if that is a requirement now). It seems the AQHA does care and wants to keep the registry accurate, just need to make is a bit more simple or cheaper to do so.

        As far as the HYPP, Does seem that it does restrict registry. It was carried by a horse named Impressive. Lots of info on the AQHA site.
        www.ottbjumpers.weebly.com

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Renae View Post
          Its $55 to transfer ownership if you are not an AQHA member. And if you have no intentions of being involved with the AQHA, yes $55 is something some people would much rather spend on something else.

          Just pointing out where a lot of people that own Quarter Horses are coming from and why there are grade Quarter Horses.
          Yes but then the next owner has to suffer? If people don't want to bother with keeping papers up to date they should just go out and buy a horse without papers if it means so little to them.

          Then the papers get lost and eventually the identity of the horse is lost so when it ends up at a kill pen it's just a horse of unknown origin.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by canterhavenfarm View Post
            As far as the HYPP, Does seem that it does restrict registry. It was carried by a horse named Impressive. Lots of info on the AQHA site.
            As long as they have been tested N/N (which I hope you would have proof of before purchase) then there should be NO reason why it effects registry.
            www.thetexasequestrian.com

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Belmont View Post
              As long as they have been tested N/N (which I hope you would have proof of before purchase) then there should be NO reason why it effects registry.
              Yes and no. A N/H horse CAN be registered, it's true. (H/H no longer can, I don't think.) But there are people out there who love the breed who will not transfer papers on a N/H mare (or stud) because they don't want to see the mare bred. In all honesty, if I had a N/H horse, I would have to think long and hard about it, because, sadly, people are still breeding them.

              It's an ethical dilemma that some horse owners are trying to take into their own hands to solve by not transferring papers and thereby making the naimal far less desirable as breeding stock. IMO, they aren't wrong, as AQHA appears to be in no hurry to stop registering N/H horses.

              I do think papers should be transferred if a horse has them in case the new owner wants to do breed shows. But it is true that lots of buyers don't want the horses for show or breeding and won't go to the expense, especially if they buy lots of horses or a dealer planning to move them on.

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              • #27
                Since it's one of the most, or even the most, populous breed of horse in the US, you're going to have a very wide range of owners. I've found that the majority of "show" horses (and therefore registered and current on their paperwork) are sold by word of mouth at the shows or via the trainer network, and the more casual or gaming horses are usually what you'll find on the websites like dreamhorse.

                I'm going to echo what someone else said and recommend that if you're looking for a less-expensive show horse, go to some of the smaller shows and talk to the trainers. Even if the ones at the show don't work or are too pricey, there are almost always others at the trainer's home barn for sale.

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                • #28
                  I received a 4H project foal from my parents as a kid (great parents, not so great horse people). She has Impressive on one side and Conclusive on the other (so basically she's double bred Impressive), and luckily is N/N. They never got the registration transferred because they got her from a private seller who didn't know much about registration either. It wasn't until this year that I've decided to sell her. Now I'm just going to call the lady they bought her from and have her sign the papers. Then I'll keep them till someone buys, just so that they can transfer her straight away. She's broke, but not western horse broke. Impressive horses are known for looking pretty, but being a PAIN to ride. They aren't the brightest, and aren't built for riding (which is really sad). It has been very difficult to sell my mare. I'm almost at the point of taking her to an auction. She's SUPER pretty, so I'm sure she'd get snatched up, but I've never heard great things about auctions.

                  Anyways, since you're looking at racing QHs you shouldn't run into any Impressive bloodlines. Just beware if you do...they do NOT make great riding horses.
                  After some rocky health issues, I am back in the saddle and getting fitter everyday!

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by vtdobes View Post
                    Yes but then the next owner has to suffer? If people don't want to bother with keeping papers up to date they should just go out and buy a horse without papers if it means so little to them.

                    Then the papers get lost and eventually the identity of the horse is lost so when it ends up at a kill pen it's just a horse of unknown origin.
                    What? REally? Just because I don't care to pay a fee for something I neither want nor need, I should pass on an otherwise suitable horse? Bizarre. I have my mare's papers but couldn't be bothered to get them registered in my name. I would have bought her just the same with or without papers.
                    Jigga:
                    Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Belmont View Post
                      As long as they have been tested N/N (which I hope you would have proof of before purchase) then there should be NO reason why it effects registry.
                      The old Bringing Light to HYPP site had claims of sellers substituting and falsifying papers, with sellers using the same negative test for multiple registrations of heterozygous (N/H) or even H/H horses. I suppose the wayback machine could be used to get at that information, but it was all anecdotal anyway.
                      Since HYPP traces back to Impressive only, a quick check of the pedigree should clue a prospective purchaser in to the adviseability of having their own test run if they should choose to do so.

                      My recollection has it that I printed out the old guy's registration - he's an ASB, and that printout was sufficient to allow him to show. The last owner on his registration was two homes ago. Mind you it was $70 to join the breed association and get access to the info in the first place. AQHA doesn't have such an option?
                      Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                      Incredible Invisible

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by saultgirl View Post
                        What? REally? Just because I don't care to pay a fee for something I neither want nor need, I should pass on an otherwise suitable horse? Bizarre. I have my mare's papers but couldn't be bothered to get them registered in my name. I would have bought her just the same with or without papers.
                        I think, now I'm not positive, that the ASB breed association looks at papers as a lifeline, giving value to their horses that would keep them from the slaughter pipeline, and that's why they allow the horse to show based on the fact of registration. It doesn't matter to me either whether the old guy's papers are in my name, but we've got to face reality here which is that circumstances change and we can't always give that forever home. From the perspective of the breeder's associations the papers mean a LOT.
                        Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                        Incredible Invisible

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by ReSomething View Post
                          Since HYPP traces back to Impressive only, a quick check of the pedigree should clue a prospective purchaser in to the adviseability of having their own test run if they should choose to do so.
                          This is true. But how do you know if you can trust the pedigree if you don't have the papers?

                          I'm in this situation. The seller gave the lady I bought Conjure from his registered name. I paid to join AQHA so I could run the pedigree and see his breeding. Well, supposedly no Impressive. But how do I know Conjure is the same horse registered under the name I searched? I called his former owners (not the sellers) and they won't return my calls.
                          I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

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                          • #33
                            It is obvious that many just don't know what registration and following bloodlines mean, at all, have some kind of fuzzy idea of what a registration means and it is to them nothing, they lack a frame of reference to understand a pedigree.

                            Having bred and trained and competed with TBs and AQHA registered horses, seeing their parents and siblings and offspring and bred and trained and competed them, there is a wonderful world out there that you can learn so much about horses from all that.

                            I can go thru a sale barn and tell you very close, some exactly what each horse there is bred like, or probably bred like, just by seeing what they look and act and move like.

                            You can't do that if you don't know your bloodlines and all that you would never learn if horses had not been registered for years now.
                            The same with dogs and most any other we bred.
                            I can look at pictures of shelties and tell you what breeding may be behind them, because I know sheltie pedigrees and have seen many of them and how the different lines cross.

                            All those mixed breed horses you are so proud of, today, they probably at some time they had some very passionate breeder crossing this and that individual to get exactly all that in the offspring that makes them such nice horses for our purposes.

                            Random breeding will get you many fuglies for each one decent and very few outstanding individuals and worse, if you then want to use the outstanding individual to breed from, even the best won't generally breed thru, the genes are too mixed for consistent results of what you admired in that unpapered individual you don't know anything about it's background.

                            Now, if you just want to buy any one horse you happen to take a fancy to and don't care to breed, sure, you don't need any papers with that horse.

                            My point, don't dismiss so cavalierly something that important in horses as breeding and pedigrees, that has given us the many really nice horses we have out there.
                            There is a good reason so many do consider registration certificates important, even if you don't.

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                              This is true. But how do you know if you can trust the pedigree if you don't have the papers?

                              I'm in this situation. The seller gave the lady I bought Conjure from his registered name. I paid to join AQHA so I could run the pedigree and see his breeding. Well, supposedly no Impressive. But how do I know Conjure is the same horse registered under the name I searched? I called his former owners (not the sellers) and they won't return my calls.
                              Even with the papers in your hand you might not be able to trust them if say, you have a plain bay gelding. Jockey Club figured that out long ago. The old guy's papers are missing a whole leg in the description, but he's got a lot of chrome and a pretty unique blaze so I'm pretty sure he is who they say.

                              For HYPP, it's a straightforward DNA test looking for the marker for HYPP so one could send in a blind test and be sure. It's just a potentially unnecessary expense.

                              Just about all the registries now do DNA testing upon registration so it might be possible to send in a mane sample and see if he matches the DNA for who you've been told he is - the old guy is too old to have been DNA typed, I do't know when it became required by the individual registries so you might be out of luck and again it's a potentially unnecessary expense.
                              Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
                              Incredible Invisible

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by ReSomething View Post

                                For HYPP, it's a straightforward DNA test looking for the marker for HYPP so one could send in a blind test and be sure. It's just a potentially unnecessary expense.

                                .
                                You're right, and if I had it to do over I'd just do the DNA test rather than handing money to an organization that made this uncertain situation possible.

                                I could not possibly care less if my horse is by Pine Tar Homerun or Dun Been There N Back Agin or whomever. I would, however, like to be reasonably certain his skin won't slough off and he won't fall over on me in a fit one day.

                                But I guess the OP wants to show so she actually needs the papers.

                                I've bought two supposedly registered animals - one with APHA and one with AQHA - and in both instances neither of the sellers ever transferred the papers to the buyer I bought from. WIth the APHA one I don't think it was subterfuge, as APHA straight up does not give a rodent's behind if your horse has a fit and falls on you. They'll register H/H all day long.
                                I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                                  You're right, and if I had it to do over I'd just do the DNA test rather than handing money to an organization that made this uncertain situation possible. I couldn't care less if my horse is by Pine Tar Homerun or Dun Been There N Back Agin or whomever. Just so long as his skin won't slough off and he won't fall over on me in a fit one day.

                                  But I guess the OP wants to show? Me, I'd rather watch paint dry.
                                  Not really, the association has to go by what the law tells it and so it has to follow existing rules.

                                  The problem, that cost the AQHA millions to fight and lose, is that if you have two duly registered parents, by law the offspring is supposed to be registrable, as it is of that breed, no question about it.
                                  That one lawsuit Hatley against the AQHA proved that in a court of law, so now all registries know that they have to walk on eggshells when trying to restrict registration of duly registered parent's offspring, it is illegal without jumping thru many hoops first.

                                  That is why it is taking years to change who can be denied registration because of being Impressive bred and depending on how it tests.

                                  There is nothing uncertain in this situation, it is clear what the law demands, registries hands are tied to certain procedures and time frames to implement them, even if they wish they could do what they think they need to do without those encumbrances.

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                    Not really, the association has to go by what the law tells it and so it has to follow existing rules.

                                    The problem, that cost the AQHA millions to fight and lose, is that if you have two duly registered parents, by law the offspring is supposed to be registrable, as it is of that breed, no question about it.
                                    That one lawsuit Hatley against the AQHA proved that in a court of law, so now all registries know that they have to walk on eggshells when trying to restrict registration of duly registered parent's offspring, it is illegal without jumping thru many hoops first.

                                    That is why it is taking years to change who can be denied registration because of being Impressive bred and depending on how it tests.

                                    There is nothing uncertain in this situation, it is clear what the law demands, registries hands are tied to certain procedures and time frames to implement them, even if they wish they could do what they think they need to do without those encumbrances.
                                    Interesting. I'll have to look up the case law. I guess the breeder's argument is: hey, registry, you're switching horses in mid-stream. You took my money to register the parent(s) and didn't say anything about proving their get was free from genetic defect before you'd register the offspring.

                                    There was a breeder here with a foal mill and a H/H stallion who churned out a hundred foals a year or so. She just started registering them with APHA instead of AQHA.

                                    How sad for a great breed. Anyway, thanks for the info, Bluey.
                                    I'm not ignoring the rules. I'm interpreting the rules. Tamal, The Great British Baking Show

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      One thing about papers and getting a horse off the track...some owners will not sell an OT horse with papers if they don't want it used for future racing or breeding. One of my STB's was given to me this way; it was the owner's way of assuring that the horse would be retired from racing, since he couldn't be raced without his papers. I didn't care, since I had no desire to race him and he was a gelding so breeding was out anyway. On the flip side of that, my STB mare is STILL in my name with USTA and I haven't owned her in 20 years and doubt very much that she is still alive. I signed the transfer, but new owner had no interest in breeding her, so didn't want to incur the expense.

                                      Bottom line, there ARE reasons and circumstances for not transferring papers, and not all of them are shady. Sometimes its done because the owner doesn't want the horse bred or competed at a certain level...and as a buyer, that's up to you to decide what you can live with.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
                                        Interesting. I'll have to look up the case law. I guess the breeder's argument is: hey, registry, you're switching horses in mid-stream. You took my money to register the parent(s) and didn't say anything about proving their get was free from genetic defect before you'd register the offspring.

                                        There was a breeder here with a foal mill and a H/H stallion who churned out a hundred foals a year or so. She just started registering them with APHA instead of AQHA.

                                        How sad for a great breed. Anyway, thanks for the info, Bluey.
                                        http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/...52/646/169383/

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          When I bought my mare, she came with the registration paperwork from the seller to get papers, but nobody had ever sent it in. By the time I got it, it was going to cost me $1000 to get papers, because she was over 4 years old. Then they couldn't give me papers anyway because there was no DNA test on her dam, and she had died.

                                          Anyway, we don't show and the baby* is gelded. It just sucks, because the baby daddy is in about 10 registries, and we can't get in most of them because his mama never got papers. About the only thing I can sign him up for is the palomino registry, but that seems kinda lame. Or have him inspected for the warmblood registries, but then I have to take the mare, and I doubt she'd get in, she's kind of a mess right now. lol

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