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Cute ASB with lots of natural knee action!

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  • #61
    Showing saddlebreds is weird. Showing saddleseat is weird. Showing is weird. Riding is weird. When it's reduced down to the most basic level, "I'm going to sit on a horse, then I'm going to ride it around an arena and make it pick up its legs as far as they'll go" is not too different from "I'm going to sit on a horse, then I'm going to point it at ten obstacles and hope it jumps."

    You can get your horses amped up and they'll look gorgeous and they'll have fun and you'll have fun. For you and lots of other saddlebred owners, that's plenty. Some saddlebred owners want their horses to jump a course. Some want a dressage ride. Some want a park horse.

    The fact is, some horses can't stay sound without shoes. Some horses in all disciplines need special shoes to help them do their best. High heels make my butt look great, just like a package makes my horse's motion great.

    "Useful" for one person is useless for another. A top showjumper couldn't do grand prix dressage, even if they're of the same breed. A trail horse couldn't do a five-gaited class, even if they're both saddlebreds.

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    • #62
      I can only say that your experience is valid for you, but I have not had the same 'take' nor results.

      I find there is a large step between 'alert' and 'scared'; an alert horse either approaches to investigate or may move away and then return (note the foal videos posted earlier).
      A scared horse leaves town or freezes and doesn't move - or think.
      Truly scaring a horse is counterproductive -not that bad/poor trainers don't do that, but good trainers do not.

      As to the pulled shoes, I have several retired former show horses that I bought as 'broodmares' - they live outside and did not go lame when their shoes came off nor did it take a year for them to 'rehab'. After 2-3 weeks of quarantine in smaller paddocks out they went to enjoy their new lifestyle.

      I will not say they 'never' took a lame step in their lives with me, the footing is sod and gets muddy - so a few pulled muscles from time to time maybe one a year, and the over 23's are a bit arthritic so not really up to the speed racer / rodeo broncing of the teen-age set, but hey, nothing like the TB mare who came in with horrific feet (not telling that tale, here).

      I also have 'untouched by shoes' Saddlebreds or crosses raised from birth. Honestly I can not tell the difference in soundness history between the 2 groups.

      Ruining any horse is not a difficult thing for a fool to do.
      Painting every trainer and barn with a single black tarred brush is excessive and unwarranted in my experience.

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      • #63
        My first horse was a saddlebred, and he was very athletic. Great on trails. He was a mountain goat in a previous life. The HORSE IN THE ORIGINAL POST is wearing chains that bounce up and down on the coronary band of his hind feet making it very sore(ever seen a horse with an abscess that has gravelled out of the hoof/hair line?) they want the horse to snatch his feet up like a gravelled horse. If you look at the same horse in other Utube videos you can see it being worked in long reins- one rein hooked to the inside bit-ring the other hooked to a overcheck,(remember Black Beauty)Google images bearing rein! And the poor horse is also wearing front shackles!!!!! Bet there is someone just out of sight with bottle rockets to keep him going forward. Soooo Sad!

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        • #64
          No Csaper58, not sore, and not likely to cause soreness. The way those very light anklets (whether chain or leather) work is by flopping around. The horse picks its feet up higher hoping the floppy things will fall off. There is a big difference.
          Jeanie
          RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by csaper58 View Post
            chains that bounce up and down on the coronary band of his hind feet making it very sore
            No.

            If chains on their own hurt the horse then the walking horse industry would not be soring horses. Chains do not hurt the horse unless they are excessively heavy or unless the horse has been made sensitive through use of chemicals such as the walking horse people do. The Auburn study done on walking horses shows that chains of 6 ounces or less produced not noiticible thermal changes.

            worked in long reins- one rein hooked to the inside bit-ring the other hooked to a overcheck,(remember Black Beauty)Google images bearing rein! And the poor horse is also wearing front shackles!!!!!
            I have never seen anyone attach a rein to an overcheck, I will have to go back and take a look because I find that statement pretty laughable. Anna Sewell's protest against the "bearing rein" in Black Beauty was because horses pulling heavy loads could not drop their heads to push into the breastcollars of the harness and could not drop their heads to lower their center of gravity to pull loads up hill. A show horse on flat ground pulling a light cart with one rider doesn't have to put much exertion into pulling....and let's not forget these are saddlebreds that have been bred for a much different neck and shoulder than the thoroughbreds and cart horses of Victorian England.

            As for the "shackles" I don't understand why you don't like them. They are a fleece covered strap that will not cause friction or abrasions on the horse and the rubber tube between them is easily stretched. It merely works the shoulder muscles and can help build a hind end also by elevating the front. It is strength training through resistance and if the horse doesn't want to use them they don't.
            Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
            Bernard M. Baruch

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            • #66
              "...that bounce up and down on the coronary band of his hind feet making it very sore(ever seen a horse with an abscess that has gravelled out of the hoof/hair line?) they want the horse to snatch his feet up like a gravelled horse."

              Did you notice when the horse stopped and stood square and solid on on four? I have seen horses with abcesses - they emphatically do not. And a gravel works from the bottom up to the coronary band inside the hoof wall where it presents as an abcess and would be a completely different and totally unrelated problem to the possibility of a light chain making a horse sore.

              God forbid a horse should move through native pasture cover that brushes their pasterns or heels - they will be sore?

              The horse in the OP video is not snatching. Watch the timing of the flight and landing phase - it is very smooth and elastic, just like wheels going round.

              Without hitching, hesitating in the air or snatching or shorter step on one side - NO lameness.

              As to other videos of the horse later in training, that wasn't what the OP was about; it was about the movement of the loose horse.

              I'm glad you had a wonderful experience with your Saddlebred. First horses are always special in your heart.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                Now I'm sure the ASB peeps will be piling in saying I don't know what I'm talking about, sadly I do. It's just plain shitty horse keeping all the way around. I wouldn't be so grumpy about it if they would even just leg them up on a hard surface or pull all shoes for hoof health, but they mostly can't because the concussive forces could mechanically founder them. Pulling their pads would render them lame because their soles are too soft to tolerate anything. The rehab on consistently padded and stalled horses feet is a about a year. Even then you will be lucky if the horse is useful for life on the outside.
                Um, no.

                You may have 6 ASBs staring at you, I have a whole bunch of them (and Morgans, NSHorses and an Arabian. We put pads on and off all the time. Our last show of the year is at the beginning of November and we start up again in Mid March. In between, our horses pads and show shoes are removed, keg shoes up front and barefoot behind and they go out and play. Shoes go back on before the March shows, then the horses not going to Nationals or the World Championship get shoes pulled again in the summer because it is way too hot to show in FL in the summer.

                We even have one horse (a Morgan) who we worked all summer last year as a padded horse and showed him at Nationals in the Saddle Seat Road Hack class, had his pads removed and a put a Classic shoe on him and the next day he showed in the Classic division....so one day after pads were removed and he showed and placed at the National level.

                If your experience with your horses is what you wrote about, then you were dealing with a really lousy farrier.

                And for the record.... I have NEVER had a founder (mechanical or otherwise) and NEVER had a laminitic episode on any horse in my care.
                Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                Bernard M. Baruch

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                • #68
                  YES THE CHAINS DO HURT! The idea is to make the coranary band hurt without damaging the skin which would lead to scars.
                  Most of the time they work in heavy chains back in the shed row then put the light chains or leathers on in public.
                  A drop of water hitting the same spot over and over can cause a terrible bruise-but not chains bouncing on sensitive skin over and over? Been there seen it first hand.
                  Last edited by csaper58; Jan. 8, 2013, 11:11 PM. Reason: spelling

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                  • #69
                    Csaper58, please go remedy your ignorance before posting more such drivel.
                    Jeanie
                    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Saddlebreds show in USEF shows. They show without chains or straps.

                      True they often work in straps or light chains, sometimes to warm up, sometimes up to about 20 minutes of work. Does jogging for 20 minutes wearing a bracelet or anklet hurt a person?

                      Hurting a horse does not encourage it to move lightly and energetically.

                      A horse that hurts tends to bob it's head at the trot, snatch and go short strided or otherwise protect itself, perhaps hanging a leg before grounding the foot. It is noticeable if a horse is sore. And not beautiful.
                      Bruising causes swelling and fluid as the body's defense and can be quite painful. Grooms and farriers would have a difficult time working on such a horse. What a thought!

                      Horses are sensitive enough to feel a fly landing on them. -They stomp!
                      After the first wearing of a strap or boot, few horses stomp, though Saddlebreds often will 'go high' especially when encouraged. The strap becomes a signal to step high, now.

                      I am very sorry if you have seen horses abused or subjected to cruelty.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by csaper58 View Post
                        YES THE CHAINS DO HURT! The idea is to make the coranary band hurt without damaging the skin which would lead to scars.
                        Most of the time they work in heavy chains back in the shed row then put the light chains or leathers on in public.
                        Poppycock

                        I have no intention of causing any pain or irritation in my horses. Chains are a way of adding weight to the horse without having to alter the shoeing (which would result in the extra weight 24/7) chains allow me to change the weight, such as adding 4 ounces to one hoof and 6 ounces to another....it allows me to test how the extra weight effects the way the horse moves. The movement of the chains makes the horse a little more aware of his feet, the sound of the chains helps with cadence.

                        As stated before, if chains actually hurt the horse, then why do the walking horse people need to resort to the chemical soring?

                        Chains do not hurt the horse.
                        Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                        Bernard M. Baruch

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          As usual blah blah blah, you don't understand.... it's perfectly fine if we do _____ as long as "we" the proverbial incestuous group decides it's fine.

                          That is exactly the response I thought my post would receive. Not unlike the Big Lickers, the Peanut Rollers, the Arabian freaks, or the Morgan wanna be like the Saddlebreders. It's all the same, just the packaging is different.

                          OT just look a what the breed show ring has done to my beloved GSD, among others. It's a disgrace and all the above horse breeds are guilty of it in the same manner.

                          ASB's are a beautiful animal naturally. I am in awe every time I see them out my window. They don't need US to make them more beautiful. Unless you need more than what they offer on their own. Then I guess, heaven help you.

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                          • #73
                            Double

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                              Finzean, are you sure they were cribbing collars and not throat sweats? Most ASB show horses when being prepped for a show will wear a throat sweat, usually flannel lined.
                              Yes - I am sure. Lots of the Arab folks I used to know used throat sweats. These horses were cribbers. I asked BO about it, as well, b/c so many were wearing them. One of my friends who bred QH wouldn't let her cribbers in with the other horses - she felt the non-cribbers would p/u the habit. Having never owned a cribber and only know those whose habit was well controlled with a collar, I don't know how true that was/is.

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                              • #75
                                Research is now showing that cribbing is a reaction that some horses have to stomach ulcers. They crib to releive the discomfort. They do not learn it from each other.

                                Ulcers can be caused by diets high in grain and low in forage, can be from stress, can be from sweet feed (sugar content in molassess).

                                When a whole barn comes down with it, it is usually a sign of poor management practices, not horses teaching it to each other.
                                Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                                Bernard M. Baruch

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  YES CHAINS DO HURT! Denile ain't just a river in Egypt! Goodnight

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                                    Research is now showing that cribbing is a reaction that some horses have to stomach ulcers. They crib to releive the discomfort. They do not learn it from each other.

                                    Ulcers can be caused by diets high in grain and low in forage, can be from stress, can be from sweet feed (sugar content in molassess).

                                    When a whole barn comes down with it, it is usually a sign of poor management practices, not horses teaching it to each other.
                                    Makes sense for the ASBs I met that day. They definitely left an impression on me - perhaps I should visit another ASB farm for a different perspective. I just felt horrible for those horses. And the poor management practices you reference...I'd agree with that hands down. They may have been champions but I wouldn't wish their life on a horse I hated. Thanks for sharing the info about the cribbing.

                                    Interesting info about cribbing here: http://anrcom.msu.edu/anrcom/news/it...tices_can_help

                                    And even more interesting on the Parelli site...brought up by a random google search. Parelli says that cribbing is burping...something other vet school's sites say doesn't happen.

                                    Though I know a cribbing strap/collar when I see one, cribbing in and of itself & the causes of cribbing is obviously a topic with various schools of thought.
                                    Last edited by Finzean; Jan. 9, 2013, 12:30 AM. Reason: add link & info

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                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by csaper58 View Post
                                      YES CHAINS DO HURT! Denile ain't just a river in Egypt! Goodnight
                                      Where is your proof? Please point to studies and/or research that shows this.
                                      Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                                      Bernard M. Baruch

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by csaper58 View Post
                                        YES CHAINS DO HURT! Denile ain't just a river in Egypt! Goodnight
                                        Yes, 4 oz chains on a 1,000 pound horse is the epitome of brutality.

                                        *eyeroll

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                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by sdlbredfan View Post
                                          Csaper58, please go remedy your ignorance before posting more such drivel.
                                          ...and reading Black Beauty doesn't count.

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