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Bad/Shocking PPE

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  • #41
    Well I'm sorry that the word horror was too much for you, but your whole post sounded pretty emotional, yes, and shocked to me is a word that accompanies aghasted and horrified. I'm shocked when a gunman mows down kids, I'm confused or surprised when I hear something I don't expect to hear from a vet (unless it's like - your horse's internal organs are fluorescent orange, and then I'd be stunned and shocked). :-)

    Anxiety is a funny thing, and I definitely wouldn't tell you to ignore your sense, but be sure that what you are sensing is because of what you actually sense. Sometimes I think we read these horror stories and we think that the whole world is out to get us (its not).

    If this equine vet is someone you trust, don't buy the horse.

    And I will add, I'm sorry that I came across as I did. I was (admittedly) annoyed by drama in another post and had this gut reaction to another post that felt like it was an OMG the world is ending! :-)

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by ohnoapirate View Post
      I didn't think I was rescuing her either, I just worried that if she does have arthritis, what if it isn't seen to be an issue and she's pushed too hard by another potential buyer?
      Then the other buyer will need to deal with it.

      Even sellers, no matter how careful they are, can't control what happens to a horse once it is out of their hands. No reasonable potential buyer should be piling emotional baggage on themselves about the possible future of a horse with as-yet unconfirmed arthritis in someone else's hands.

      You say the seller is generally ok. If the horse isn't suitable for you, trust the seller to find some other suitable home for the horse.

      Or forget the PPE, buy her, and then you'll never have to worry that someone will work her in a way that you find inappropriate.
      Halt Near X | Horse Bloggers - Blog Directory

      Comment


      • #43
        Out of everything these are the big things to me.

        Originally posted by ohnoapirate View Post

        There are so many red flags here. I requested a contract pending vet check twice but the seller wouldn't allow it. Which, fine, some sellers want to keep their options open.


        3. Whenever I talked about the PPE the seller kept repeating that she didn't think any issues would be found and seemed a little off put by my thorough exam.
        4. Seller disappears when a PPE is scheduled.
        5. Despite being unable to respond to emails, over the two weeks I was out of contact with the seller the sale listing was updated 3x... one of them with a price increase.
        Just these things would make me walk away and not one of them has to do with the out come of the PPE.
        My life motto now is "You can't fix stupid!"

        Are you going to cowboy up, or lie there and bleed

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
          Well I'm sorry that the word horror was too much for you, but your whole post sounded pretty emotional, yes, and shocked to me is a word that accompanies aghasted and horrified. I'm shocked when a gunman mows down kids, I'm confused or surprised when I hear something I don't expect to hear from a vet (unless it's like - your horse's internal organs are fluorescent orange, and then I'd be stunned and shocked). :-)
          I guess that shows what good can come of over analyzing and putting too much stock in a simple word . Much like the OP created problems in her head that weren't there with the seller, we on COTH create problems in our heads about people asking for questions based on something as silly as one word.

          Anxiety is a funny thing, and I definitely wouldn't tell you to ignore your sense, but be sure that what you are sensing is because of what you actually sense. Sometimes I think we read these horror stories and we think that the whole world is out to get us (its not).

          If this equine vet is someone you trust, don't buy the horse.

          And I will add, I'm sorry that I came across as I did. I was (admittedly) annoyed by drama in another post and had this gut reaction to another post that felt like it was an OMG the world is ending! :-)
          I have to say OneGrayPony I really like your posts. I notice you around and you are one of my favorite posters on here. You're totally right, too. Anxiety can cause a person to believe their SO is cheating and find 'evidence' for it when the SO never cheated (I have seen this happen so many times). The human mind is designed to seek patterns. If you draw a box but don't connect the final corner we'll see a box, even if it isn't really a box. We make assumptions.

          I think OP that it's important to understand that we ALL do it and we're not picking on you or looking down on you for it. We want to help you. From what I've seen of your posts I hope you stick around because you're very receptive to the criticism you've received (albeit a bit sensitive). Not gonna lie, I was a bit worried at how you would react to people. Not everyone in this thread has been polite but you have taken it in stride without getting angry and insulting people. We need more of that around here. Just wait it out.

          Comment


          • #45
            ok, so what if she was emotional and upset? thats what she was feeling at the time. We all know horse buying is a stressful time!

            Its a very big decision when someone buys a horse and as OP said it can trigger past stresses. Sounds like OP you have a handle in things. Good luck!

            Comment


            • #46
              I really think it is the seller you have the red flags about from your stated reasons. So... you have to decide if you want to take a chance on a filly you really like who;

              1. "may" not have had tack on at 2. (big deal..not)

              2, Who may have gotten a bang at one point and has an old splint that may be visible but won't affect her unless you want to show her in hand, (no biggie)

              3. Who may have crappy feet (that may get stronger with supplements and something like durasole over time..or may have to wear pads)...could be a little high maintenance.

              4. Who may have arthritic changes already at 2..that may or may not ever affect her..(This one bothers me the most..but I have never had one that had that at such a young age..but that's just me)

              Are you willing to live with those things and give her a chance?

              I have been screwed by a bigtime seller and a few bigtime sellers over the years, so I do understand your caution, but you have a vet who needs to give you honest assessment, and it comes down to what you are willing to risk. You might just go buy a perfectly wonderful, great-footed superstar that does something seriously career-ending the day after you sign the check..it happens. If you don't feel right or suspect that some dreadful problem will be revealed at a later date...don't do it. If not, weigh your risk and listen to the vet and your gut...if you get her, insure her for loss of use. JMHO

              Comment


              • #47
                I guess I don't understand the shock either. Why do xrays at all if not to uncover these potential issues that may have previously gone undetected? That is exactly why you do a PPE.
                "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

                Comment


                • #48
                  I don't even get to the PPE in this scenario before walking.

                  My read of your post is, vet is trying to be verrry helpful w/o crossing the bounds of propriety.

                  At that point, I run away from this prospective purchase.

                  Add to that- I run even faster away from any hint of arthritis at that age. Just asking for trouble.

                  As has been noted, there are just too many nice horses out there available for a song.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Not sure what breed you are looking at, but according to several top sporthorse vets I've worked with (and who have done pre-purchases for me), minor hock changes are not all that uncommon in young horses once they have been started. I bought one that radiographed with minor changes as a coming 3 year old with the blessing of two different unaffiliated vets (the one who did the pre-purchase and was a fellow at a major vet school, the other my usual sporthorse vet who reviewed all the rads for me).

                    4 years later the only lame steps he's taken have been due to the occasional abscess (lots of wet, rocky ground combined with 4 white feet). Is in a full training/jumping/showing program (well in excess of the 3' mentioned above), not on any joint meds/supps. If and when he shows discomfort, we'll address it. Until then, not sure why we would limit anything when he hasn't shown us any reason to do so.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by wanderlust View Post
                      Not sure what breed you are looking at, but according to several top sporthorse vets I've worked with (and who have done pre-purchases for me), minor hock changes are not all that uncommon in young horses once they have been started. I bought one that radiographed with minor changes as a coming 3 year old with the blessing of two different unaffiliated vets (the one who did the pre-purchase and was a fellow at a major vet school, the other my usual sporthorse vet who reviewed all the rads for me).

                      4 years later the only lame steps he's taken have been due to the occasional abscess (lots of wet, rocky ground combined with 4 white feet). Is in a full training/jumping/showing program (well in excess of the 3' mentioned above), not on any joint meds/supps. If and when he shows discomfort, we'll address it. Until then, not sure why we would limit anything when he hasn't shown us any reason to do so.
                      People usually have the idea that a horse might not be able to train anymore and may or lame or need injections within a few years. They view it as a gamble and say it's impossible to know so it's not worth it. You're one of a very select minority I've seen that is actually cool with it. I described the thread to two different trainers and both said they'd run for the hills if they ever saw a horse like that because it would only maintain or get worse, not better.

                      Not bashing you... it's just really interesting to see. In a good way. I like your outlook on things. I will say that one of my family friends bought a 3-year-old for one heck of a price with mild arthritis showing up in the x-rays (no physical signs). Sometimes I believe it's just that any horse you buy is a risk, and there's no guarantee that you'll get a sound horse even with a perfect PPE. I know of horses that passed with flying colors who ended up either lame or with very expensive ailments within a few years.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        So, I still haven't heard from the vet... I sent another email and called a couple of times but no luck. Don't have much to update with but I figured I would let you guys know where it's at. It's only been 3 days so I guess she has a lot on her plate. I'm just sitting on my hands and breathing and waiting. This is unusual for the vet in particular, she usually responded to my emails astonishingly quickly. I hope something bad hasn't happened.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by ohnoapirate View Post
                          So, I still haven't heard from the vet... I sent another email and called a couple of times but no luck. Don't have much to update with but I figured I would let you guys know where it's at. It's only been 3 days so I guess she has a lot on her plate. I'm just sitting on my hands and breathing and waiting. This is unusual for the vet in particular, she usually responded to my emails astonishingly quickly. I hope something bad hasn't happened.
                          That is VERY weird. You should have had the results in hand by the end of the day that she did the check, the next morning at the very latest. I'm not sure what's up with this vet but I would be PISSED if I were in your shoes.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by ohnoapirate View Post
                            So, I still haven't heard from the vet... I sent another email and called a couple of times but no luck. Don't have much to update with but I figured I would let you guys know where it's at. It's only been 3 days so I guess she has a lot on her plate. I'm just sitting on my hands and breathing and waiting. This is unusual for the vet in particular, she usually responded to my emails astonishingly quickly. I hope something bad hasn't happened.
                            Give her another call - sometimes emails go astray or get lost in the bombardment or she may be waiting for a 2nd opinion ... lots of possibilities.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Have you already paid? Because that is really strange for a vet to not get back to you on a ppe.. Kinda unprofessional
                              Race training and retraining Thoroughbreds.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Vets are human too. Sometimes things come up that take priority over a horse that's for sale ( such as a death in the family like the seller had). There was a post on here a while ago that was pretty harsh on a vet that hadn't called back, as it turned out there had been an accident. Lets hope it's just an oversight and nothing tragic.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Vets are very busy people. My vet told me it could take a week to get it back--it's a 5-6 page report with written explanations and details on everything she found. They have emergencies, regular appointments throughout the day, and many of them drive over an hour and a half each way to get to clients. I wouldn't worry about it too much, especially if she was recommended by people as you say she was. Give another call on Monday.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    She called me about the results today apologizing for how long it took to get back to me. Overall, she believes it is very minor. She explained that her equipment is very modern and there is a large screen in the back of an SUV so she can clearly see the x-rays.

                                    "Extremely minor lipping in the lower joint which is believed to be the beginning of osteoarthritis" is what she said. She also emailed me over a rough draft with more specific medical terminology about it. I do not have the x-rays yet but she said I will definitely get them. She does not believe it is a gigantic risk, explaining to me that hock arthritis is the easiest to treat and this might not even progress or get worse. She issued a reality check saying that the right hock was in her opinion no more or less guaranteed to have issues than her left, that she has never had a single horse with a perfect PPE and in the grand scheme of things something like this is minor, easily maintained/treated and not something she would consider a deal breaker. She specializes in lameness and performance horses as well. She also stated that it's minor enough that some vets would not even consider it worth a diagnosis.

                                    Lot to think about, still sending the x-rays over to a more local vet for their verdict on it. While at first I thought this might be a huge deal breaker I'm more calm about it now. I still don't know. Lots to think about. The vet also said give how minor it is in a year or two (too young now) I could opt for a "cunean tenectomy" which would probably protect the joint from degradation all together given how minor it is now, however she doesn't believe it warrants that at this time, especially not before the horse has had serious work.

                                    Has anyone heard of that procedure before? Google is has a lot of positives about it but my local vet has not heard of it being used in a long time. I don't think I'd do surgery on a young horse but if in a year or two it starts to worsen I might consider being evaluated for it. If it meant avoiding years and years of pain and injections. IDK. Your thoughts on this whole thing?

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I wouldn't be concerned about this considering it's very minor and in the lower joints which are going to fuse at some point anyway. Not all horses are the same. This could be normal for this horse.
                                      Do you have pictures of the horse?


                                      Originally posted by ohnoapirate View Post
                                      She called me about the results today apologizing for how long it took to get back to me. Overall, she believes it is very minor. She explained that her equipment is very modern and there is a large screen in the back of an SUV so she can clearly see the x-rays.

                                      "Extremely minor lipping in the lower joint which is believed to be the beginning of osteoarthritis" is what she said. She also emailed me over a rough draft with more specific medical terminology about it. I do not have the x-rays yet but she said I will definitely get them. She does not believe it is a gigantic risk, explaining to me that hock arthritis is the easiest to treat and this might not even progress or get worse. She issued a reality check saying that the right hock was in her opinion no more or less guaranteed to have issues than her left, that she has never had a single horse with a perfect PPE and in the grand scheme of things something like this is minor, easily maintained/treated and not something she would consider a deal breaker. She specializes in lameness and performance horses as well. She also stated that it's minor enough that some vets would not even consider it worth a diagnosis.

                                      Lot to think about, still sending the x-rays over to a more local vet for their verdict on it. While at first I thought this might be a huge deal breaker I'm more calm about it now. I still don't know. Lots to think about. The vet also said give how minor it is in a year or two (too young now) I could opt for a "cunean tenectomy" which would probably protect the joint from degradation all together given how minor it is now, however she doesn't believe it warrants that at this time, especially not before the horse has had serious work.

                                      Has anyone heard of that procedure before? Google is has a lot of positives about it but my local vet has not heard of it being used in a long time. I don't think I'd do surgery on a young horse but if in a year or two it starts to worsen I might consider being evaluated for it. If it meant avoiding years and years of pain and injections. IDK. Your thoughts on this whole thing?

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        You have to evaluate based on the horse, the price of the horse and your level of comfort. Very minor lipping in the hock is just not terribly bad or shocking.

                                        I vetted a two year old early last year that was lame on THREE LEGS. She had not been backed yet. The vet didn't even call me before leaving the property as he was sure I would not be interested in the horse. Didn't bother with radiographs for the same reason.

                                        A tiny amount of change of the radiographs is FAR from the end of the world.

                                        But if it makes you that uncomfortable, then pass and find another horse. There are plenty out there.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Regarding "Whenever I talked about the PPE the seller kept repeating that she didn't think any issues would be found and seemed a little off put by my thorough exam."

                                          Unfortunately I think this not an uncommon reaction from sellers since they make their money from sales and a bad finding can significantly reduce the price of the horse.

                                          I just went through a PPE and the x-ray showed arthritis in the right hock of a 5-year old. The owner was prompt to say "Well no horse is perfect!" Aaaakward!!

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