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Bad/Shocking PPE

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  • #21
    I think you're over-reacting. Are you really that surprised that a 2 year old didn't behave like a perfect angel for the vet? Or that the seller was not aware of a possible hock issue with no heat/swelling/lameness? Or that the seller was preoccupied with the death of her father over the holidays? And why would anyone need to put shoes on a 2 year old? Or take new sale photos of a young horse with a woolly winter coat?
    Jigga:
    Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

    Comment


    • #22
      I'm with saultgirl. You waited a week after the death of her father before you got impatient? How...charitable....

      You're appalled that a 3 year old doesn't have shoes? My first baby to break didn't wear them until he was 6.

      You're amazed that a young horse has some potential issues in the hocks? Uh... Not sure what breed you're looking at but many of the larger breeds have some less than perfect films, and it may be nothing at all.

      I do think you owe the seller a big fat apology for your insensitivity though. Jeez.

      Comment


      • #23
        I hereby green thumb Saultgirl.

        Comment


        • #24
          **double post**

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by RedmondDressage View Post
            I think this is bit harsh. Nothing the OP has encountered seems ridiculous to me. I think OP is excited and nervous, as we all are during the purchase process. It’s even more nerve-wracking with a baby. When I was buying mine from the other side of the country you better believe I was micro-analyzing absolutely every word the seller said and every move she made. She was a perfectly reputable person and an honest seller but I found red flags anyway, purely due to my apprehension. I’m certainly not saying OP should just go in blindly trusting, we all know that’s never a good thing in the horse world, but just look at things rationally. In the end OP has to go with her gut but so far nothing here stands out as super shady to me. If I were dealing with my father’s death I would be hard to reach as well and selling my horse would likely be fairly low on my list. I don’t know why the pics haven’t been updated but frankly the horse might be fugly right now. I know mine sure is. He was in a particularly handsome phase when I bought him in Sept but I would be hard pressed to take a flattering ad photo right now so were I selling I would probably use my older pics until he gets to another pretty stage. It’s also middle of winter and they look like furry beasts right now, not exactly photo friendly either. Personally I would make zero judgments based on the preliminary x-ray results, especially since the horse checked out fine otherwise. Babies are a risk regardless of how the PPE’s turn out but I certainly wouldn’t freak over the info OP has currently. I'm actually more concerned by the vet. I find it odd that she's so insistent based on small pics reviewed in the field and I also think it's odd that she thinks an unbroken 2 year old should have shoes on.... I don't even see what the purpose would be before they are under saddle.

            From the info we have here it sounds like the filly is well bred and OP is clearly excited about her, that sounds worth pursuing to me.
            Thanks for understanding. It seems that other people go the wrong idea from my posts. I don't mind the behavior with the vet since babies are always weird with vets, nor do I think it's a dealbreaker.

            My concerns with the seller mostly come from hyper-analyzing things... "Never had more than a sore hoof" yet she's had a splint before? Splints aren't really a huge deal but it's something to bring up. That feels misleading to me, and when she says the filly's been started under saddle yet the vet says it doesn't seem as if she's left the pasture any time soon that kind of weirds me out... Same with the shoes. But the shoes don't particularly bother me, even if it bothers the vet. I've seen all kinds of hard keepers in terms of feet and I have a very good farrier in my area I intended to take my horse to anyway. It's not like her feet are ruined by not wearing shoes... I just thought it would be worth mentioning just in case.

            I make no judgments on the seller at all nor am I impatient. I'm just scared that something might go wrong or I can't trust her. Not angry, not judgmental, just scared. I really want to trust her but I worry "what if what if".

            Background info: I had a situation like that when I bought my dog. She sold me a working dog with a neurological problem that prevents him from actually being a working dog (his brain doesn't always feel where his hind legs are...). Long story short, she used a variety of really cruel lies to try to get out of discussing the issue when I tried to talk to her about it (just thought she should know, so she can keep it in mind for future breedings). So I've been lied to before and I'm not convinced that the seller of the filly is lying about her father dying--I'm just really hesitant and view things with a wary eye. I have expressed my utmost sympathy to her and even sent her a card

            I didn't get the results back tonight so I'm guessing the vet was busy today. Anxious so I can take the x-rays to one of the local vets.

            I feel really bad now. I really didn't mean to offend any body and I should have worded my first post better. I'm sorry guys, I'm not intending to bash the seller or be harsh towards her at all, I'm just really confused and don't know what to think...

            Comment


            • #26
              You're overreacting.
              And FWIW, there is no way a vet could tell you if the horse has ever had someone sit on her.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Originally posted by jetsmom View Post
                You're overreacting.
                And FWIW, there is no way a vet could tell you if the horse has ever had someone sit on her.
                I never said that the vet magically knew...

                Comment


                • #28
                  A 2 year old that needs shoes is a giant red flag. Flat feet and sensitive. Wouldn't touch. Sorry. Just slapping on shoes isn't the answer, especially a 2yo. I've learned my lesson. But won't go further in case I'm labled a crazy person.

                  Terri
                  COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                  "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    First of all calm down. I can see you're a little upset right now and it's completely understandable--horse buying can be stressful especially when you have other things going on in life. I'm in the process of buying right now and waiting on PPE results (I'm expecting my results by or on Monday). Yeah if something goes wrong it can be frightening.

                    Your vet should not have given a premature diagnosis. Are you sure it was on a small screen? Perhaps the vet just saw it on a laptop. It's difficult to say unless you were there with her which it seems you weren't.

                    As for the seller... I went through my mom dying six years ago and everything I had or wanted to do dropped off the face of the planet. I was in shock. Maybe the seller has been misleading, but it wasn't intentional. If there has been any lack of information I'm almost 99% positive it's because she's distracted getting over her father's death. I can understand doubting that kind of story, especially with the state of things, but I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

                    IF she has arthritis, I would walk away. And not because the seller lied or anything, just because arthritis at such a young age could be career limiting.

                    I think other people misunderstood your post. If I'm correct... you're mostly shocked that a 2-year-old may have arthritis, yes? That would be shocking to me though I'd mostly just end up disappointed.

                    I think you're upset right now and despite everything, it's a good thing you posted. Sometimes when you're emotional you need some tough love to help you get through it without making an emotional decision instead of a logical one... and COTH has no shortage of tough love.

                    You really just need to calm down (maybe meditate? If you're into that...) and distract yourself until the results come in. Get a second opinion from a different vet on those x-rays (I would do so even if everything came out clean). I hope it all works out for you.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I realize you really, really like this filly but if you are not having good vibes, walk. There are WAY TOO MANY OPTIONS in the way of green horses to get into a deal that makes your teeth itch. Not passing judgment on anyone involved in this situation. It almost sounds like you've got some heebie-jeebies over this, maybe not able to put your finger on all of it in a specific way, but your gut is telling you something ain't kosher. Again, lots of options in this market. Green youngsters are always a gamble to a certain degree...

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I have a 16 year old Morgan gelding who I trust to do anything under saddle with my daughter. ANYthing. But I bet if he was pulled out of his muddy turnout and that vet had to deal with him (he HATES vets) your vet would he think he was unbroke and not handled lol. I sure wouldn't base handling on a single vet experience. Also, I know more than one person who has raised wquite a few foals and wouldn't know a splint if it hit them in the eye. Did the vet go over the large x ray with you yet? The sore feet would make me more nervous than the small xray...
                        Kerri

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I think its weird at this point the vet hasn't given you her final opinion on the x-rays. It sounds like its been two days since the PPE. I know most clients want the final answer that day....
                          I love cats, I love every single cat....
                          So anyway I am a cat lover
                          And I love to run.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by ladyfreckles View Post
                            First of all calm down. I can see you're a little upset right now and it's completely understandable--horse buying can be stressful especially when you have other things going on in life. I'm in the process of buying right now and waiting on PPE results (I'm expecting my results by or on Monday). Yeah if something goes wrong it can be frightening.

                            Your vet should not have given a premature diagnosis. Are you sure it was on a small screen? Perhaps the vet just saw it on a laptop. It's difficult to say unless you were there with her which it seems you weren't.

                            As for the seller... I went through my mom dying six years ago and everything I had or wanted to do dropped off the face of the planet. I was in shock. Maybe the seller has been misleading, but it wasn't intentional. If there has been any lack of information I'm almost 99% positive it's because she's distracted getting over her father's death. I can understand doubting that kind of story, especially with the state of things, but I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

                            IF she has arthritis, I would walk away. And not because the seller lied or anything, just because arthritis at such a young age could be career limiting.

                            I think other people misunderstood your post. If I'm correct... you're mostly shocked that a 2-year-old may have arthritis, yes? That would be shocking to me though I'd mostly just end up disappointed.

                            I think you're upset right now and despite everything, it's a good thing you posted. Sometimes when you're emotional you need some tough love to help you get through it without making an emotional decision instead of a logical one... and COTH has no shortage of tough love.

                            You really just need to calm down (maybe meditate? If you're into that...) and distract yourself until the results come in. Get a second opinion from a different vet on those x-rays (I would do so even if everything came out clean). I hope it all works out for you.
                            Thank you for understanding. Yes it is almost 100% about the arthritis. I have never seen this before in such a young horse. Some people have said to call it shocking is dramatic but the definition of shocked is "A sudden upsetting or surprising event or experience" which I believe sums this up perfectly... I don't mind the feet problem because I am used to TBs were hard to keep feet. Feet are less expensive to maintain per month than potentially career ending arthritis. I don't even mind the green thing but as someone else said I have been hyper analyzing everything to the point where it's made me paranoid... and I realize that after thinking it over.

                            I've just been really stressed out overall lately--a whole lot of things in life are not going as planned (but that is life I guess?) and this hit particularly hard because I was so convinced it would work. I spoke to the vet on the phone yesterday and she said she still believes it's arthritis but the full report isn't in yet. I'm going to call her today to ask again.


                            Originally posted by Finzean View Post
                            I realize you really, really like this filly but if you are not having good vibes, walk. There are WAY TOO MANY OPTIONS in the way of green horses to get into a deal that makes your teeth itch. Not passing judgment on anyone involved in this situation. It almost sounds like you've got some heebie-jeebies over this, maybe not able to put your finger on all of it in a specific way, but your gut is telling you something ain't kosher. Again, lots of options in this market. Green youngsters are always a gamble to a certain degree...
                            Maybe it's a sign that she wasn't the right horse for me. You're right.

                            Originally posted by Beethoven View Post
                            I think its weird at this point the vet hasn't given you her final opinion on the x-rays. It sounds like its been two days since the PPE. I know most clients want the final answer that day....
                            I do too... I need to figure out what is going on with that vet. She said she usually takes a few hours to put everything together and organize a detailed report and that it's done by the weekend at the latest. But if she wasn't going to get it to me within a day then she shouldn't have said so...

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I agree the arthritis is more shocking in a horse that young. However a 2 yo sore on her feet sends up a lot more alarm bells than ringing up my farrier to fix it. I'd be more concerned with things like IR and low grade lami even in a 2yo. Like I said, most would consider that crazy talk. But hey you live and you learn.

                              Terri
                              COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                              "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                When I start getting feelings that something is not quite right, be it in the middle of the night about horses in the barn, about going somewhere with a horse, about buying a horse, or whatever, I tend to listen to them and try to figure why I am getting a bit concerned about whatever is going on.

                                I would say, if there are red flags that keep coming up in what you are hearing about the filly, inconsistent stories and omissions by the breeder, odd reports from the vet, I would reconsider seriously if I wanted to continue pursuing buying her, unless I can find a way to reassure myself it is worth taking chances something was bugging me that later I will find out and make that a very bad purchase.

                                It may or not, but if it does, you will have to learn from it and be more careful next time, when red flags keeps coming up.

                                I tend to follow Grandma's advice, "when in doubt, don't".

                                That means, wait until you are confident you are doing the right thing.
                                When you find more about the filly, buying her may after all be fine.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Ordinarily I'd agree with Bluey except for a few things...like this quote...

                                  Normally I'd stomp off in the opposite direction of a horse with arthritis but part of me also feels like the filly is the one who is most affected by whether or not I purchase her. I don't know.
                                  We're not talking about a rescue here.

                                  We're talking about a 2 year old filly who may or may not have some "arthritis" in a hock (which can be defined as rough edges or hooks, which can ALSO be congenital).

                                  Buy it? Meh. Maybe.

                                  Be shocked? No. I wouldn't be shocked because I've had enough very sound horses who continued to be very sound despite films that look hideous...and I've ALSO had horses who are not sound who have films that look like they should be sound.

                                  We're not talking about a GP jumper here, we're talking about a 3' horse.

                                  None of the other parts of the story would indicate to me that the seller had been untruthful. I had a horse who had been ridden extensively who chose to be a complete a$$ for the prepurchase. As in, she couldn't even finish it. Of course, the vet hauling off and kicking him in the stomach didn't help matters (then he positively refused to allow her to come anywhere near him...he was a bit of a delicate flower.) Didn't mean he was unhandled.

                                  A splint is easily missed, and a horse doesn't have to be lame for it to happen. Since the horse is 2 and not in regular work, this could have happened any time and the seller could be totally truthful that she'd never seen a lame step. Similarly with the feet. I had a thoroughbred with very very thin soles who could be barefoot comfortably until he was hacked out on stones. Then he needed shoes and pads, but without them, he was fine for normal use. This 2 year old is not backed, so there's no reason to put shoes on.

                                  I'm not telling you you should buy the horse. I'm just reacting to your shock and horror over the whole situation.

                                  You are not this filly's only hope (unless she has a BCS of 2 and then there are other issues that need to be dealt with). You are not rescuing her. This seller is not a bad seller who needs to be avoided at all costs and you don't even really have the full vet report back.

                                  Breathe and make a decision when you get the information.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by ohnoapirate View Post
                                    "Never had more than a sore hoof" yet she's had a splint before? Splints aren't really a huge deal but it's something to bring up. That feels misleading to me
                                    Many-a horse is not lame when they pop a splint so an owner that is not looking all over every day might not even notice.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Judging by the posts, some of you must use very horse-inexperienced vets ...
                                      I can't imagine using a non-equine practioner for a PPE

                                      An owner/breeder that hasn't noticed a splint, has a foot sore 2 yr old, is this difficult to pin down to anything concrete ... they may not be reasons to not buy a horse that you really like BUT they are certainly indicative.

                                      I'm with Terri on this one

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        We all have a different level of risk and comfort with issues.

                                        Arthritis is something I have dealt with and not interested in buying a horse with a known problem. It MAY not cause lameness, sure, but hock arthritis gets really nasty really quick and costs $. Assuming the horse also needs training and farrier work (which it does) that could add up really quick. Its stressful having a horse with arthritis let alone such a young horse that would need care for 20+ years.

                                        Assuming the vets are giving you an accurate report, why start with these issues PLUS seller inconsitencies PLUS ground manner issues?

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                                          Ordinarily I'd agree with Bluey except for a few things...like this quote...



                                          We're not talking about a rescue here.

                                          We're talking about a 2 year old filly who may or may not have some "arthritis" in a hock (which can be defined as rough edges or hooks, which can ALSO be congenital).

                                          Buy it? Meh. Maybe.

                                          Be shocked? No. I wouldn't be shocked because I've had enough very sound horses who continued to be very sound despite films that look hideous...and I've ALSO had horses who are not sound who have films that look like they should be sound.

                                          We're not talking about a GP jumper here, we're talking about a 3' horse.

                                          None of the other parts of the story would indicate to me that the seller had been untruthful. I had a horse who had been ridden extensively who chose to be a complete a$$ for the prepurchase. As in, she couldn't even finish it. Of course, the vet hauling off and kicking him in the stomach didn't help matters (then he positively refused to allow her to come anywhere near him...he was a bit of a delicate flower.) Didn't mean he was unhandled.
                                          Of course. In my emotional drama and turmoil (read: overreaction) I made things sound a lot more dramatic and important than they really were and I apologize for that... it's not an effective way of communicating. It was more along the lines of "well, this horse seemed perfect but all of the sudden the seller disappeared, I'm not sure if they're telling the truth because the listing keeps being updated, now the vet says there might be arthritis and sore hooves and she's really green. I know she's green she's two, so if the vet commented on it I don't know what to think what is going on". They were doubts more than accusations that the seller is lying. I had a bit of a deer in headlights moment.

                                          A splint is easily missed, and a horse doesn't have to be lame for it to happen. Since the horse is 2 and not in regular work, this could have happened any time and the seller could be totally truthful that she'd never seen a lame step. Similarly with the feet. I had a thoroughbred with very very thin soles who could be barefoot comfortably until he was hacked out on stones. Then he needed shoes and pads, but without them, he was fine for normal use. This 2 year old is not backed, so there's no reason to put shoes on.
                                          Yeah the soreness was on rocks and asphalt only, it didn't show up on dirt. As for the splints in my experience I've always known when a horse had a splint and it was always made out to be a big deal by my trainer (even when the horse wasn't lame... my trainer at the time always thoroughly checked horses and knew about every single little thing that popped up). I guess I just thought everyone was like that which was dumb of me. I think you're right. It would take someone feeling down the legs on a daily basis to notice a splint.

                                          I'm not telling you you should buy the horse. I'm just reacting to your shock and horror over the whole situation.

                                          You are not this filly's only hope (unless she has a BCS of 2 and then there are other issues that need to be dealt with). You are not rescuing her. This seller is not a bad seller who needs to be avoided at all costs and you don't even really have the full vet report back.

                                          Breathe and make a decision when you get the information.
                                          Okay here's where I take issue with your post. There's no horror, only shock. Saying horror sounds even more dramatic. Shocked and emotional, but horrified? I think not. Even if the seller was being intentionally misleading or misleading at all, I wouldn't consider her to be a bad seller who needs to be avoided at all costs. I'm very irritated that I have to spell that out on here because those words did NOT come from me. I didn't think I was rescuing her either, I just worried that if she does have arthritis, what if it isn't seen to be an issue and she's pushed too hard by another potential buyer?

                                          Logical thought? Probably not... but the your hyperbole is unnecessary and just makes a minor statement made during an emotional time seem 20x worse than it actually was. I apologize if I in any way came off like that but that was not my intention and that is not who I am, so please don't think that it is.

                                          But you're right that I do need to breath. Which is what I've been doing. Posting was a double edged sword. If I hadn't posted I don't think I ever would have calmed down, but at the same time I'm calmer now, responding as such, and people are still reacting to my first posts while I was still emotionally overwhelmed as if that person is me and that's what I'm actively currently thinking. It's just... the kind of person described in your post doesn't sound like me at all...

                                          Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                          When I start getting feelings that something is not quite right, be it in the middle of the night about horses in the barn, about going somewhere with a horse, about buying a horse, or whatever, I tend to listen to them and try to figure why I am getting a bit concerned about whatever is going on.

                                          I would say, if there are red flags that keep coming up in what you are hearing about the filly, inconsistent stories and omissions by the breeder, odd reports from the vet, I would reconsider seriously if I wanted to continue pursuing buying her, unless I can find a way to reassure myself it is worth taking chances something was bugging me that later I will find out and make that a very bad purchase.

                                          It may or not, but if it does, you will have to learn from it and be more careful next time, when red flags keeps coming up.

                                          I tend to follow Grandma's advice, "when in doubt, don't".

                                          That means, wait until you are confident you are doing the right thing.
                                          When you find more about the filly, buying her may after all be fine.
                                          Thank you this accurately covers it. I think a lot of times having a bad feeling about something can make minor things seem like huge red flags when they're not. I've been lied to before by a breeder as I mentioned so I can get really worked up when I'm afraid it will happen again. Logically I'm coming down from my anxiety and seeing things with a clearer lens. I do think there's an issue with the vet, and if by the time the full report is back I still have doubts I just won't go with it.

                                          But this is exactly what I needed to hear.

                                          Originally posted by alto View Post
                                          Judging by the posts, some of you must use very horse-inexperienced vets ...
                                          I can't imagine using a non-equine practioner for a PPE
                                          She's an equine practitioner. Horses are the only thing she works with and she was recommended to me by 3 trainers in the area. That's why it's weird...

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