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If you think horse slaughter is humane then you need to see this...

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  • #81
    Character,
    Our group has sent press releases all over Europe and Asia, detailing the the export of tainted US horsemeat for human consumption. We are in contact with someone from the Belgium media, and are working on getting this exposed.
    I have the data and facts in the press release, and we can reissue it at any time.
    The EU already knows that a problem exists with the lack of regulation of horsemeat in the US.
    The demand for US horsemeat has drastically decreased over the last decade due to consumer awareness of the unsafe nature of this as food. The EU has banned the import of horsemeat in years past due to outbreaks of trichinosis traced back to US horsemeat plants.
    In 2002 the EU was inches away from banning the import of US horsemeat,due to the medications issues and the drastic percentage of drug residue overages in the meat, but in "closed door" negotiations with the USDA, they agreed not to implement the ban!! Wonder how much that one cost us taxpayers???? Unbelievable, what a dispicable, vile trade this is!!
    People can and do die from eating contaminated food and foods laced with drugs and chemicals.
    I guess if our government has no value for human life, how can we expect them to value equine life?
    The one major thing we all can do is get involved!! We all need to contact our congressman and demand that they support and co-sponsor H.R. 857. We need to take control over the fate of our horses. We obviously cannot leave it up to the government or the vets to save them from the greed of the foreign plant owners.
    www.horse-protection.org

    No Horses to Slaughter Clique

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #82
      I remember the big stink about 5 years or so ago when they banned bute in Europe. There was a black market demand for it and it drove the costs up here in the US. I think it would be terrible if we were no longer able to give our horses certain medications just so somebody down the road could safely eat our horse!

      "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

      Comment


      • #83
        Our Philadelphia news station NBC 10 is doing a report on Equine Slaughter and New Holland, tomorrow night at 11:00 P.M. They have been running small clips since the weekend. I plan to watch it. I'm sure after the report airs they will post the clip on their website.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #84
          I highly recommend reading that paper on that link Onthebit provided called "Slaughter, An Unnecessary Evil" Very well written and full of facts. I'm now a convert to this new bill to ban slaughter.

          Incidentally, on Page 47, a killer dealer mentioned called Arlow Kiehl is the very man I bought my mustang pony out from under...the rescue I mentioned earlier. He was due to pick him up in 3 days and I got there first. He has been arrested 9 times for illegal transport of horses to slaughter as well as animal cruelty.

          "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

          Comment


          • #85
            You can read a lot more about Arlow Kiehl and his cronies at www.equineprotectionnetwork.com

            I am so glad that you read the TRF's white paper, it soundly dispels all the pro-slaughter myths. It is what compelled me to get involved!!

            I wanted to let you all know that I will be unable to post here for a couple of days.
            I am headed, momemtarily to Springfield IL to meet with Illinois legislators and our lobbyists regarding SB 1921. I will be there two days.

            I didn't want you all to think I dropped in out of nowhere, only to vanish just as quickly!!

            I pray, that all of you who stand in support of ending this horrible tragedy, will PLEASE take action!! Every single phone call or fax or email to a legislator is registered as a vote in favor of a bill!! Together we can end this nightmare. Please visit:
            www.horse-protection.org for a list of both the US Congressman and the Illinois state legislators.
            www.horse-protection.org

            No Horses to Slaughter Clique

            Comment


            • #86
              I think it is "BARBARIC" what is being done and the GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ARE NEEDING TO GET THEIR FINGTERS OUT THEIR ASSES AND START WAKING UP .. I wonder if they would like their childrens ponies going that way .. They should show it to their children and families and let them know what they are allowing to do instead of stopping it .. That would shake them up .. And their families .. I tell you what I would do to these people dealing in this way .. SHOOT THE BASTARDS ..

              Comment


              • #87
                I don't have time right now to respond to the things that I would like to respond to, but I just want to say this:

                The video posted here is horrific, whenever it was, wherever it was, how it happened. But you don't have to look very far in the threads here on Off Course to see another example of the OTHER way many other horses will probably go if there is no alternative (and this is very likely if federal funding for rescue groups is not provided).

                Take a look at Reggie.
                http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/f...ggie_front.jpg

                I'd LOVE for ALL of the horses and ponies like Reggie to be lucky enough to find a forever home where he is loved and fed and cared for. But if this bill gets passed AS IS, not only are all the horses like Reggie probably not going to find such a home, but these horses aren't going to have any alternative other than to starve to death.

                This is a horribly emotional debate. NO ONE wants to see these horses die, no matter how they go. This is not pro-slaughter vs. anti-slaughter. Both sides are fighting for what they think is best for the horse, in light of the desperate situation we face with tens of thousands of unwanted horses per year.

                ***
                The hardest to learn was the least complicated.
                ***
                The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

                Comment


                • #88
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kt:
                  . But you don't have to look very far in the threads here on Off Course to see another example of the OTHER way many other horses will probably go if there is no alternative (and this is very likely if federal funding for rescue groups is not provided).

                  Take a look at Reggie.
                  http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/f...ggie_front.jpg

                  I'd LOVE for ALL of the horses and ponies like Reggie to be lucky enough to find a forever home where he is loved and fed and cared for. But if this bill gets passed _AS IS_, not only are all the horses like Reggie probably not going to find such a home, but these horses aren't going to have any alternative other than to starve to death.

                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  The "other alternative" is available right now. How did it help to keep Reggie from suffering?

                  Two Toofs
                  (formerly - but still - NDANO)

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Two Toofs:

                    The "other alternative" is available right now. How did it help to keep Reggie from suffering?

                    Two Toofs
                    (formerly - but still - NDANO)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Obviously, in this case Reggie was lucky enough to find a home. But if he WASN'T lucky, wouldn't you rather his suffering end quickly rather than die a long, painful death. This is not an ideal situation, but it is reality.

                    Do you really think the retirement and rescue groups can absorb the cost of all of these unwanted horses that will come from banning slaughter? IF the bill included provisions for providing the millions in funds needed for their care PLUS prevented transportation across borders, it would be one thing. But it does NOT include these things. So, you have starving, neglected horses that cannot ALL be taken in, without federal funding.

                    ***
                    The hardest to learn was the least complicated.
                    ***
                    The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #90
                      kt,

                      Please read that article that ONTHEBIT referenced about The Unnecessary Evil. Here's the link again http://www.trfinc.org/ scroll down and you'll see the title. I think you will realize how ridiculous the argument is that we are going to be overrun by unwanted horses if were stop the slaughter of 40,000 a year that we are now being slaughtered in this country. The great decline in the number of horses slaughtered in the 1980's (over 300,000) to the 40,000 today has not resulted in an increase in neglected starving horses so it's not really a smart argument to think that another 40,000 is really going to make much of a difference. The well written article really covers it well.

                      "No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kt:

                        Obviously, in this case Reggie was lucky enough to find a home. But if he WASN'T lucky, wouldn't you rather his suffering end quickly rather than die a long, painful death.
                        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        By your argument, he should have never been starved because his owners would have taken him to slaughter instead. Why didn't they? If he hadn't found someone to help him, he would have suffered a long, painful death in a country where slaughter is an option.

                        Two Toofs
                        (formerly - but still - NDANO)

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          The video is terrible. Having spoken with someone today who recently saw the process firsthand and up close and knows quite a bit about the process, it appears that the type of incident shown in the video is very rare. Errors occur in all other types of euthanasis--I have heard many horror stories of euthanasia by injection gone wrong, even in the hands of highly qualified vets. Should we ban ALL euthanasia then?

                          I don't understand the vet-bashing. I really don't. Especially by equinelaundry, who seems to know the top AAEP so well that she can say they have "turned off" their emotions and haven't worked in a crisis setting.... Do you know the AAEP president supports equine adoption facilities by providing free care, or care for just the cost of medications? I'm just baffled as to how you can assume these things.

                          And just simple misinformation. Onethebit, you are 100% wrong that the AAEP has never polled its membership on its welfare views. In fact, they have, and 88% of the membership would like slaughter to be available as an option if necessary. Because you have completely gotten this wrong, why should I believe that any other facts you state are credible?

                          Character, how is the AAEP statement wishy-washy? All that the AAEP is concerned about is the welfare of the horse. THEY ARE NOT PRO-SLAUGHTER. In an ideal world, horses would all have homes and be taken care of. But that is not the case, so the AVMA/AAEP strives to make any process involving the horse as humane as possible. What data are you looking for? Did you notice the facts about how much money it costs for basic care for one horse per year? I think the strongest information comes from several extremely knowledge, compassionate and experienced horsepeople/vets watching the process and affirming it is humane. Obviously, if you have a chip on your shoulder about vets as you appear to, that is not credible enough.

                          ***
                          The hardest to learn was the least complicated.
                          ***
                          The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Two Toofs:

                            By your argument, he should have never been starved because his owners would have taken him to slaughter instead. Why didn't they? If he hadn't found someone to help him, he would have suffered a long, painful death in a country where slaughter is an option.

                            Two Toofs
                            (formerly - but still - NDANO)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            I really don't know the answer to that question: why did they allow him to starve instead of having him destroyed? There's a thousand possibilities to that question, but no matter the answer, yes, it'd be a shame if he died a long, painful death when his owners had an option to end it for him quickly. In those instances, it does not matter whether slaughter exists or not. But you cannot legislate every single thing. In this current situation where slaughter does exist in our country, what you can do is provide choices and information and help people to make the best decision possible in regards to the horse's quality of life. Obviously, if the option of slaughter is removed, the choice is taken away, so more regulations are needed to ensure that the horse still has a decent quality of life. Currently, the bill does not provide for that.

                            ***
                            The hardest to learn was the least complicated.
                            ***
                            The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              [/QUOTE]The "other alternative" is available right now. How did it help to keep Reggie from suffering?[/QUOTE]

                              Bottom line, I think they didn't care. I think you will see more of that from idiot breeders that can't unload their stock and are too cheap to make a decision until it reaches a point like Reggies and they know they can't even present the animals to a sale.

                              You mentioned signs that often said "fat" in the slaughter houses. All types of slaughter houses are under pressure to not accept sickly underweight looking animals. This can also be why you are seeing fatter horses going to slaughter. A horse in any condition like Reggie will likely spend time in a feed lot to improve his condition before he is presented to a slaughter house. Is that better? I honestly don't know. I do think that who ever let him go to that point would probably be callous enough to let him starve to death if he wasn't transported.

                              I do think that they are more under pressure now because they can be taped or viewed, which is a good thing.

                              [QUOTE]I think it is "BARBARIC" what is being done and the GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ARE NEEDING TO GET THEIR FINGTERS OUT THEIR ASSES AND START WAKING UP .. I wonder if they would like their childrens ponies going that way/QUOTE]

                              Gov't Officials are also elected to make decisions that will benefit the vast majority of their people that don't have "ponies". Ponies and horses are often viewed as hobbies, luxuries. If I'm right, I think you need to show a certain amt of years of profit in breeding and showing to be declared a Business.

                              I am thinking the average gov't official will see the slaughter industry as a Business with revenue into our own economy, "foreign or not" and the average horse as being a Hobby. This is a problem I can see with any people I am around that aren't horse people. Horses are viewed as a luxury. If the horse industry with it's breeders can't take care of the problem than why are tax dollars expected to take care of the "hobby"?

                              I am reading http://www.trfinc.org/ and there are many things in it that could sway me. It is possible that once breeders can't unload their stock easily through auctions because the cost of transportation is too great they will slow down, and it is possible that the PMU industry slowing down will have a huge effect as well.

                              However I have to admit that I think that sometimes anti-slaughter advocates (not all) get so passionate about their cause they mirror tactics from other animal organizations and do not present facts which is why I appreciate knowing where videos and pictures come from and "all" facts surrounding them.

                              [This message was edited by moose on Feb. 09, 2004 at 03:25 PM.]

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                [QUOTE]Originally posted by kt:
                                The video is terrible. Having spoken with someone today who recently saw the process firsthand and up close and knows quite a bit about the process, it appears that the type of incident shown in the video is very rare.[QUOTE]

                                Yay, another opinion.

                                [QUOTE]I don't understand the vet-bashing. I really don't. Especially by equinelaundry, who seems to know the top AAEP so well that she can say they have "turned off" their emotions and haven't worked in a crisis setting..... [QUOTE]

                                Take the time to read thru my entire posts and not just pick something out here & there. I bashed government entity's; USDA vets, vets appointed to government positions and some State Vets. Why you insist on harping on AAEP is lost.

                                I would be more than happy to talk to talk to every single member of AAEP.

                                [QUOTE]Do you know the AAEP president supports equine adoption facilities by providing free care, or care for just the cost of medications? I'm just baffled as to how you can assume these things..[QUOTE]

                                Well he should. They were his livelihood and got him to where he is today. if there were more vets that did the same we wouldn't be in this debate.

                                [QUOTE]Character, how is the AAEP statement wishy-washy? All that the AAEP is concerned about is the welfare of the horse.THEY ARE NOT PRO-SLAUGHTER. In an ideal world, horses would all have homes and be taken care of. But that is not the case, so the AVMA/AAEP strives to make any process involving the horse as humane as possible. What data are you looking for? Did you notice the facts about how much money it costs for basic care for one horse per year? [QUOTE]

                                Very Good Point. Which is why our society is in this position. Which is why so many animals are euthanized - humane or not. It cost money to maintain these lives. I know of one vet who encourages breeding - more money for lots of ultrasounds, 1x week visits, many lost foals but not after trying to save them and billing thousands of dollars.

                                [QUOTE] I think the strongest information comes from several extremely knowledge, compassionate and experienced horsepeople/vets watching the process and affirming it is humane. Obviously, if you have a chip on your shoulder about vets as you appear to, that is not credible enough.[QUOTE]

                                I have an huge chip for vets that breed. Nothing like watching a Pedigree commercial with a "top vet" and "breeder of...". This is sick.

                                I also have a chip on MY shoulder for vets that allow neglect to continue. If all the members of AAEP are so wonderful how come there are so many horses in rescue. How come so many come in not registering on the body scale? I have a horse that is 17.2 and weighed less than 800# when I rescued him from a very nice show barn. His pelvis was completely turned to one side, you could see every piece of cartlidge and he was on a diet of 8qt. of sweet feed and straight alfalfa. Do you know how many farriers and vets walked by him? Do you know how long it takes to get from a healthy 1500# to 800? I proudly wear my chip on my shoulder for anyone in a professional equine position that does nothing. They have a responsiblity as professionals and yet so few stand up and do something about it. Do they not live by an ethical code? Vets don't go into it for the money - you do it because they love animals right? Of course. Yes, it is the owner that starves the horse but it is the vets, neighbors, boarders, etc. that allow this to happen.

                                Lots of people are afraid of confrontation. I'm not and would love to sit at a round table with AAEP and discuss a few members, show them pics, let them hear the voice of the horse rescuer and horse lovers. And as you can see from my screen name I am not a troll and I have LOTS to lose from posting on this - like my business - but I've had nothing but support from my clients in what I do. Oh, and I happen to have a wonderful, compassionate & experienced equine vet.

                                Again, please get off my ass about AAEP. Reread my posts, all of them, then you will again read that I am against slaughter only because it lessens the responsibility of breeders.

                                How many vets passed by Reggie in his condition? Hmmmm

                                ______________________________
                                **If you don't rescue, don't breed. Simple solution to companion animal overpopulation.**
                                "Concern for animals is a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done." Harriet Beecher Stowe 1811-1896

                                Ponies are cool!

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  ::::barf:::: Yes, it happens, unfortunately it doesn't look like it will come to an end any time soon. With the horses 100%!

                                  And now for a little inspiration... (found this on the net, no idea where)
                                  He was always there...Always patient with you. When you dug in with your heels as you were just learning to ride, when you fell off he wickered gently in concern. When no one else would listen, he was there.
                                  When you went to your first show...remember that? But then he got old. You couldn't ride him anymore. You didn't want a pony anymore. A big warmblood...that's what you want. So you went and sold him. He was sold and sold again. But he's usless now. You unlocked his treasures as you spent years together. No one else will. Everyone else sees and old boney nag.
                                  Do you remember him? He remembers you. Maybe you will remember him when you use your glue again, or feed your dogs. He will be there again...but did you really want that?
                                  Do your part to help stop horse slaughter...no one ever said trying hurt.

                                  Speak kindly to your little horse,
                                  And soothe him when he wheezes,
                                  Or he may turn his back on you,
                                  And kick you where he pleases.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    I know this is a tough subject and everyone feels strongly about it. I read the White Paper too. But it was clear to me that no one has the "provable" facts and numbers to back up their arguments. This is a long term problem with no easy answers. My advice is this:

                                    If you just want to "Ban" something, many people will not take you seriously. So, what will you replace it with? Propose reasonable ways to humanly destroy horses that is low or no cost.

                                    Why do you think that vets support this? They see the horses in horrid conditions, suffering beyond their help when they are finally called. You bet they hate that. Even worse than slaughter. And yes, it happens all the time.

                                    Give them (Vets) a way to help, an better avenue to support and they will jump on it. Make it easy for them to report neglect and have a way to rectify the situation and they will do it. Right now they have little or no right to do so.

                                    Support the universal ID#'s and microchips! So you can prove your numbers! Track the sources of horses ending up in plants! Then, go after them directly, with proof.

                                    Educate, educate, educate! Proper care, proper breeding, proper, inexpensive euthenasia and disposal.

                                    By all means, ban slaughter! But face the realities and offer solutions that will replace the need (or perceived need for it).

                                    SCFarm

                                    A Leg at Each Corner
                                    The above post is an opinion, just an opinion. If it were a real live fact it would include supporting links to websites full of people who already agreed with me.

                                    www.southern-cross-farm.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      OldladyonaTB: I forgot to thank you for your post earlier. I wish every breeder would be as responsible as you and to go as far as spaying and neutering your pet-quality dogs, taking them back, well.....you get the biggest gold star ever . You are a breath of fresh air!! Thank YOU!!

                                      LLDM: Same goes for you. Education is the key to all this. Thank you for restating that.

                                      Kristie
                                      ______________________________
                                      **If you don't rescue, don't breed. Simple solution to companion animal overpopulation.**
                                      "Concern for animals is a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done." Harriet Beecher Stowe 1811-1896

                                      Ponies are cool!

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YoungFilly:
                                        Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I had thought that the bolt gun was supposed to be less cruel than a bullet. Obviously not.

                                        People, the world is cruel. Thats just the way it is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        A little off topic from the question of slaughter, but there are certainly more than one vet who thinks that when properly done, either bolt gun or bullet is just as humane if not more humane than euthanasia.

                                        The difference is that bolt/bullet renders the animal instantaneously brain dead, then other body functions such as respiration and circulation cease. Whereas with euthanasia, the heart shuts down first and brain death follows in several minutes.

                                        We really don't know which is less painful as there isn't a lot of experimenting going on, but most people agree that brain death is most likely to be the least painful way to go.

                                        "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard
                                        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by equinelaundry:

                                          Take the time to read thru my entire posts and not just pick something out here & there. I bashed government entity's; USDA vets, vets appointed to government positions and some State Vets. Why you insist on harping on AAEP is lost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          The reason I am "on your ass" about the AAEP is I made a statement how the top people (as in Executive Committee) visited the plant and affirmed the process was humane, and then you replied back with comments about lunch meetings with the big boys and turning off emotions and other comments that made me bristle. I took it as an attack against those vets and thought it was truly unfair. So fine, I'll drop that.


                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I also have a chip on MY shoulder for vets that allow neglect to continue. If all the members of AAEP are so wonderful how come there are so many horses in rescue. How come so many come in not registering on the body scale? how many farriers and vets walked by him?... I proudly wear my chip on my shoulder for anyone in a professional equine position that does nothing. They have a responsiblity as professionals and yet so few stand up and do something about it. Do they not live by an ethical code? Vets don't go into it for the money - you do it because they love animals right? Of course. Yes, it is the owner that starves the horse but it is the vets, neighbors, boarders, etc. that allow this to happen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          I understand the beef that you have with certain vets, but like you say I don't think vets are personally and solely responsible for these tragic neglect cases. I can't tell you how many owners I've come across who simply wouldn't provide the care the vet has told them the horse needed, whether it's laziness or stupidity or whatever. I've seen some neglected horses who have never even been SEEN by a vet, ever. We are ALL responsible, as boarders, animal lovers, even as human beings, to report this kind of stuff. As someone else mentioned, there aren't a whole lot of avenues in place at this time for vets to speak out. And I have often heard of vets (or just people, myself included) seeing a clear neglect case and not being able to activate any kind of rescue efforts or intervention due to uncooperation with officals.

                                          It's complicated and emotional. I am sorry for going on about vets and the AAEP and the AVMA. Yes, there are bad vets. But please don't paint them with a wide brush. Don't make them a scapegoat. The entire system of equine welfare/slaughter/neglect is in need of a giant overhaul, but the burden does not rest on one party's shoulders entirely.

                                          ***
                                          The hardest to learn was the least complicated.
                                          ***
                                          The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

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