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Lost contact with lessee of my horse!

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  • #81
    Good Luck!!! I have a "Lease From Hell" situation myself right now. "Lessee" hired an "agent" (the guy is a bail bondsman) to sit at her gate to prevent me from taking my ponies the day I came to retrieve them. I took my stallion anyway, and guess what.......bail bondsman said I assaulted him, and the judge believed him!!! Bail bondsman is about 200 pounds, and I am a size 4

    However, I believe the judge's message to me was that I used poor judgement, and put myself and my children in physical danger, than really believing that I physically hurt this man (with one hand, mind you, as I supposedly assaulted him WHILE leading the stallion).

    I certainly understand your frustration and angst - I was a trusting in my situation too - believed every line of bull this woman fed me - and was very sympathetic (and generous) to her. This was a "friend" who I spoke to daily over the course of almost 3 years......GAWD do I feel stupid now.

    Am having to go through the court to get my mares back, it is a SLOW (and expensive)process, but will hopefully be over soon.

    I sincerely hope you get your horse, without the ridiculous drama I have had to endure.

    When I called the sherriff's office, they told me it was a civil matter and they would not get involved, but they did not hesitate to come and arrest me for tresapassing and assaulting the "agent" when I took my stallion. As embarrassing as it is for me, the reality is that the fine and court fees for that were about $300, and I have my pony. Going through the courts to retrieve the others is thousands of $$$ in attorney's fees, and I do not even know if my animals are OK at this point (it has been 6 months).

    Keep us posted, and I hope your situation works out better than mine!

    Cheers, ~Julie~
    www.caspianpony.com

    Comment


    • #82
      I'd hie my behind back to that sheriff's office and demand to see his superior. And if he didn't want to let me, I'd plant my hindparts in the middle of his desk and refuse to move until someone helped me. That's total BS. Hell, if you could find the woman or your horse, there wouldn't be a problem! As shiloh said, you wouldn't be expected to find your own car and the thief if it were stolen, would you?!?!?!

      Sometimes I think the local law enforcement "deputy dawgs" are about as useful as boobs on a boar.

      Get back over there, girl, and MAKE them help you! That is, after all, what they are paid for.

      What about the vet's office? Is there no way that they can give you SOME contact information for this woman? Is her phone number unlisted? Can they at least give you the area code so that you can look it up in directory assistance? After all, if she's listed in a certain town (or area code), there's no expectation of privacy so no vet/client privilege applies. Just a thought...............
      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
      A life lived by example, done too soon.
      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

      Comment


      • #83
        I have to say that if the lease is expired and the horse has not been returned and you have not been contacted regarding renewing the lease or the status of your horse, then I think your horse HAS been stolen.

        Have the lease terms expired?

        Good luck - can't wait to hear how this all turns out - fingers are crossed for a happy ending to all this. Hope your PI finds something soon. What does your attorney say about the sheriff department's role?

        Is there some way to file charges and seek some sort of court injunctive relief demanding the return on the horse? If the terms of the lease have expired and you have tried all you can to get in touch with the woman about having the horse returned, then this might be the logical next step. This would be approaching it as a civil court matter, not criminal.


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        • #84
          Good luck, calvincrowe.

          One thing you might do, if you have a picture of your horse, you could post it, along with a description. It's just possible that someone might have seen the horse and give you a further lead. You could also, I believe (but you should probably check with the moderators) post the name of your leasee, again with the hope that someone might know of her whereabouts.
          "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

          Comment


          • #85
            Truly awful.....

            Most PI's have access to link cel phones to addresses.

            Got my fingers crossed for you!

            happy horsin!
            Proud Rubenesquestrian!

            \"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up

            Comment


            • #86
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ESG:
              I'd hie my behind back to that sheriff's office and demand to see his superior. And if he didn't want to let me, I'd plant my hindparts in the middle of his desk and refuse to move until someone helped me. That's total BS. Hell, if you could _find _ the woman or your horse, there wouldn't be a problem! As shiloh said, you wouldn't be expected to find your own car and the thief if it were stolen, would you?!?!?!

              Sometimes I think the local law enforcement "deputy dawgs" are about as useful as boobs on a boar.

              Get back over there, girl, and MAKE them help you! That is, after all, what they are paid for.
              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Take a chill pill --- and do not give "legal advice" unles you know the law. From a legal stand point, the difference is that in this case the lessee voluntarily turned the horse over to the lessor. When a person steals your car, you have not voluntarily turned it over to him.

              The better analogy is if you lend your car to a friend who said they would have it back to you in a week. On the 7th day, the car is not sitting in your driveway. You go to the police and expect them to put out an APB for you car. You sit in the middle of the desk and DEMAND that they get your car back immediately. After all, that is what they are paid for!!! What do you think the police would tell you, given this fact situation?

              And at the beginning of this thread we were told that it was time to talk about renewing the lease. To me that sounds like the lease is still in effect, or has just barely ended.

              Civil courts exist to deal with breach of contract. And, at this time, that is what this is. The police and the district attorney have their own area of responsibility, and it does not include retrieving a horse which has been legally leased, just because the lessor has moved from point A to Point B within the same community. And, at this point, THAT IS ALL WE KNOW ABOUT HER BREACH OF CONTRACT. And courts deal in certainty, not suspicion and emotion.

              So, please, everyone, calm down and do not give advice which is out and out incorrect. The poster has hired an attorney and is getting legal advice. Perhaps we can turn into a support system instead of judge and jury rolled into one. That might be more constructive.
              "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

              Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

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              • #87
                AMEN LH!!!

                Here are the Devilpups!!
                http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87

                I FART in your general direction TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!!!
                Is minic a rinne bromach gioblach capall cumasach
                An awkward colt often becomes a beautiful horse .

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                • #88
                  ESG - I know laws vary from state to state, but in my own experience, there was nothing the police could do to help me retrieve my animals, as it was a civil matter. Read my earlier post on this thread for the details.

                  Hope calvincrowe has an easier time getting her horse back than I did.

                  Cheers, ~Julie~
                  www.caspianpony.com

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Go get your horse. I know it's been said but I'd be a nervous wreck until I did. Do what it takes to locate her and go. I sold a pony once and let her go with the transport company even though I hadn't received the final check (she seemed like a nice lady ). After a week when the check still hadn't arrived, I was ready to pack the trailer up and go to another state to get her when the check arrived, just in time. Turns out her excuses about forgetting the stamp on the envelope and it getting returned may have been true. But I was still willing to go.

                    One major stipulation in any lease should be NO MOVING the horse until the owner is notified. Period. Whether the lease is up or not, she broke the contract and you should go get the horse. And my advice, never lease a horse out further away than you're willing to drive. I plan on making regular visits to see mine.

                    Good luck on getting your boy back. Please keep us posted!

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:

                      Take a chill pill --- and do not give "legal advice" unles you know the law. From a legal stand point, the difference is that in this case the lessee voluntarily turned the horse over to the lessor. When a person steals your car, you have not voluntarily turned it over to him.

                      The better analogy is if you lend your car to a friend who said they would have it back to you in a week. On the 7th day, the car is not sitting in your driveway. You go to the police and expect them to put out an APB for you car. You sit in the middle of the desk and DEMAND that they get your car back immediately. After all, that is what they are paid for!!! What do you think the police would tell you, given this fact situation?

                      And at the beginning of this thread we were told that it was time to talk about renewing the lease. To me that sounds like the lease is still in effect, or has just barely ended.

                      Civil courts exist to deal with breach of contract. And, at this time, that is what this is. The police and the district attorney have their own area of responsibility, and it does not include retrieving a horse which has been legally leased, just because the lessor has moved from point A to Point B within the same community. And, at this point, THAT IS ALL WE _KNOW _ ABOUT HER BREACH OF CONTRACT. And courts deal in certainty, not suspicion and emotion.

                      So, please, everyone, calm down and do not give advice which is out and out incorrect. The poster has hired an attorney and is getting legal advice. Perhaps we can turn into a support system instead of judge and jury rolled into one. That might be more constructive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      I'm not giving legal advice. I don't understand how you extrapolated that from my post. I posted what I would do - period.

                      As for the "deputy dawgs" not doing what they're paid for, I have personal experience, so please don't tell me that that isn't valid. This sheriff evidently blew her off. I'm sorry, but that's never appropriate. I've been wrangling with too many government agencies and gotten that sort of treatment too many times to believe it when someone tells me "There's nothing we can do". Usually, the reality of the situation is that there's nothing they WANT to do.

                      Sorry for any confusion.
                      In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                      A life lived by example, done too soon.
                      www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        The law may vary from state to state, and a lot depends on whether, when you show up with a trailer, the leasee is there and is willing to let you take the horse. If the leasee isn't willing to do so, that person can call the police and have you arrested for trespassing and, as in one poster's case above, assault.

                        A violation of contract isn't a criminal matter in most cases. It's a civil matter, which is why a police officer would want to see a court order or some indication of a court judgment in favor of the person showing up with the trailer. If you go onto someone else's property and forcibly take a horse (whether or not you believe that horse to be yours legally), you are asking to be arrested.
                        "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          *BUMP*

                          any updates??

                          " I didn't really say everything I said "--Yogi Berra

                          Member of the Olde Farte Clique
                          One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well. - Virginia Woolf

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                          • #93
                            After reading all this, it's clear that when one leases or gives a horse to another person, there isn't much one can do to get the horse back.

                            As to the car example though, couldn't you report the car stolen if you leant it to someone and they didn't bring it back? Raises some interesting questions about what is theft and what isn't.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PostingTrot:
                              The law may vary from state to state, and a lot depends on whether, when you show up with a trailer, the leasee is there and is willing to let you take the horse. If the leasee isn't willing to do so, that person can call the police and have you arrested for trespassing and, as in one poster's case above, assault.

                              A violation of contract isn't a criminal matter in most cases. It's a civil matter, which is why a police officer would want to see a court order or some indication of a court judgment in favor of the person showing up with the trailer. If you go onto someone else's property and forcibly take a horse (whether or not you believe that horse to be yours legally), you are asking to be arrested.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Fair enough. But what if you show up with documentation proving that you're the owner of the horse? I would think that's enough to get your horse back, if you have registration papers, proof of ownership (bill of sale, etc.) copies of lease contracts, etc. I only say this because I found myself in almost the same situation several years ago. I had to take a horse away from a lessee who fancied herself a trainer. It was at a horse show, and I went to the show manager, showed her the lease contract, my proof of ownership (bill of sale and the horse's registration papers with my name listed as owner), and told her what was about to transpire, and that the local law might have to be called in to get this woman to give me my horse back. She (the show manager) appreciated being notified of my intentions and luckily, the law didn't have to be called in and I got my horse back. I know it helped tremendously that I had access to the horse in "neutral territory", but I have to believe that there is recourse for a proven owner to get her lawfully owned horse back from someone purposely withholding it from her.
                              In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                              A life lived by example, done too soon.
                              www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Khamian - obviously things cold have changed, but I had a similar situation in that the leasee of my pony stud decided to not give him back. This was in SC, I had the papers (in my name) and photos and the sherriff's dept gave me an escort to the farm and stayed until I had him loaded on the trailer and off the property.

                                Unfortunately it happened AGAIN several years later (free-leased him to a "friend") except this time it was Va. Had to go through the court system there and I'm convinced the only reason that didn't take years and lots of $$$ was the fact that the guy who took the pony (I leased him in NC, he took off to Va), OD'd on drugs and died.

                                Pony is now retired and with me!!!

                                I love this country!!
                                www.foxlairponies.com

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Hey FLF.....Though I live in SC.....my pony stallion on loan was in VA

                                  ESG....I have proof of ownership, and there is no signed lease, yet the police said it was a civil matter, and would not escort me. My lawyer did tell me "go get your horse" - I did - and was arrested (and found guitly) for trespassing and assaulting the "hired thug" - a man at least 100 lbs heavier and close to a foot taller than I Still, though, I violated the law and received just punishment.

                                  At least I have that pony, and can look out my window and see that he is safe. The fine was about $300 and, of course, this is embarrassing, as my previous criminal activity was limited to traffic tickets....Yet, retrieving my others through the civil court system is several thousand $$$ so far, and has been 6 months of nonstop worry as to the condition of the ponies, the whereabouts of the ponies, and what further vindictive action this "Leasee From Hell" might take. You are lucky your leasee chose not to be as obstructive as the one I am dealing with.

                                  Any news from calvincrowe?

                                  Cheers, ~Julie~
                                  www.caspianpony.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Khamian - sorry to hear that, Va. is tough. Maybe your guy will OD as well???

                                    I love this country!!
                                    www.foxlairponies.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      I had a major problem with the lease of one of my old horses. Unfortunately I didn't and don't own a truck or trailer so I couldn't just up and get him. I had ridden with the barn before and never suspected they would let my horse's condition detetiorate. He had pure diarrhea for a month and lost about 300 lbs over the course of a several months. He looked almost like an ASPCA case and they brought him to shows looking like this. My grandfather was a lawyer (in a different state) and his advice was to get the horse, which I couldn't do, because no trainer or for hire company was going to get in the middle of it, for sure. I had to raise Holy Hell to get them to increase his feed, after asking the barn help how much he got (1/2 sc. 2x day where he should get at least 2 sc. 2x day). They refused to get him checked by their vet although they finally did. Nothing was wrong, except the fact he was starving. They wouldn't let my vet on the property. It was one of the most emotionally difficult experiences I've ever had. I felt powerless. I had made a mistake in the lease by writing they had the right to purchase the horse, but didn't write that I had the right to refuse, so they kept saying they were going to buy the horse. I did feel the contract was null and void due to a breach of contract (keeping the horse in acceptable working condition). I didn't have money for a lawyer. I was a mess. Sometime I'll post pictures: before/during/after.

                                      The evening before the lease ended a friend of my mom's who had a trailer helping me go get him. Everyone was furious. The police wouldn't get involved though, thank God, because it was a civil case - breach of contract. You can't steal your own horse, at least not in Connecticut.

                                      My Photo Albums

                                      "When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes."
                                      -- Shakespeare, Henry V
                                      Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. - Gandhi

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khamian Farms:
                                        Hey FLF.....Though I live in SC.....my pony stallion on loan was in VA

                                        ESG....I have proof of ownership, and there is no signed lease, yet the police said it was a civil matter, and would not escort me. My lawyer did tell me "go get your horse" - I did - and was arrested (and found guitly) for trespassing and assaulting the "hired thug" - a man at least 100 lbs heavier and close to a foot taller than I Still, though, I violated the law and received just punishment.

                                        At least I have that pony, and can look out my window and see that he is safe. The fine was about $300 and, of course, this is embarrassing, as my previous criminal activity was limited to traffic tickets....Yet, retrieving my others through the civil court system is several thousand $$$ so far, and has been 6 months of nonstop worry as to the condition of the ponies, the whereabouts of the ponies, and what further vindictive action this "Leasee From Hell" might take. You are lucky your leasee chose not to be as obstructive as the one I am dealing with.

                                        Any news from calvincrowe?

                                        Cheers, ~Julie~
                                        http://www.caspianpony.com&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

                                        I'm so sorry you had this trouble. Not bashing at all here, but if you ever leased again, would you be sure to have a contract? Do you think it would have helped, or not? I'm interested in your perspective.

                                        And BTW, the leasee in my case didn't have a choice as to whether or not to be obstructive; she didn't own the horse, admitted it, and we had a signed contract detailing the exact circumstances under which she had possession of my horse to begin with. Not to belabor a point, but that's why I never do business except with contracts. Just keeps everyone on the same page.
                                        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                        A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FLF:
                                          Khamian - sorry to hear that, Va. is tough. Maybe your guy will OD as well???

                                          I love this country!!
                                          http://www.foxlairponies.com
                                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Well, I don't wish that on her, but I am still at a loss to figure out how she is justifying her behavior. I was extremely generous to this person. She now has a lovely base for her new pony breeding program, yet never incurred the expense of purchasing and importing the original stock. What really hurts, is that I was stupid enough to consider this person one of my closest buddies over the last few years. We spoke daily, every morning when my cell would ring at the barn, my daughter would say "that's your daily &lt;insert name here&gt; call". As they say, no good deed goes unpunished. I have no experience whatsoever in this sort of thing, all my other "pony deals" have been wonderful, whether hand-shake deals, or written. So, I am not going to let one bad apple spoil the entire basket.

                                          Julie
                                          www.caspianpony.com

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