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Dog Breeder Contracts, Is This Where the Equine Industry is Headed?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by TBRedHead View Post
    I can understand some of the dog ones, as stated by the above posted, however I am currently looking for another dog, found exactly what I wanted (*ranch bred*, red, smooth coat border collie, female, puppy) but the contract stated at 2 yrs the breeder would finish health testing, breed the dog and retain puppies. Seriously? I have to keep my dog away from other males, and deal with her period and pay more to have her registered with my county because she's not spayed? A lot of a breeder to ask.
    I have never understood why anyone not actively competing with dogs and teaming up with a breeder would do that, or a breeder would require that from the general public.

    That is a scam to get the unsuspecting public to be raising puppies for the breeder.

    If you are competing, then that is a way to get a better quality and possibly more competitive dog, that later will be used for breeding, a situation that fits just a handful of puppy buyers, not at all the general public.

    As for horses?
    With the oversupply today, any one breeder wanting to sell with such restrictive contracts is going to be laughed at by most buyers and they will move on to more sensible sellers.
    The reason rescues can get by with that is because of their play on emotions, the horse is being "rescued and needs to be protected".
    That can backfire, when buyers will walk on and go look for a horse in other places and so fewer horses in real need find homes.
    A fine line dog and horse rescues walk there.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by MMacallister View Post
      But I will address some of your concerns. I do understand that the breeders are trying to do the best they can to find good homes for their puppies. I do not want to register the puppy, because it will be fixed, and I really have no interest in producing more puppies. Therefore it seems silly to be required to pay for what is to me a worthless piece of paper.
      The home visit thing, well thats because I am a little funny about having people in my house. I am fine with people coming to the outside of my home, it just makes me very nervous when people come into it. It is not spotless, but not hoarderish or scary or anything. It has free or very cheap furniture, my tv sits on the floor etc. So yea I guess I worry about people being judgy pants. I don't even like having my family over! But I would probably cave and let them over if I really loved the puppy.
      My yard is not fenced, I use a radio collar system hooked up to solar back up in case the power goes out. I have no idea how breeders feel about this.
      The required feeding thing is because the dog I got from the pound has a very very sensitive stomach. We tried all natural to cheapy stuff and finally found that Purina One Lamb and Rice stays down and keeps him happy. So that is what him and beagle eat. I really do not want to have to feed one dog one thing (other than puppy food for the growing years) and the other one something else.
      I am sure that I will call and talk to the breeders once I decide on a breed and exactly what I am looking for. Then they can decide if they want to sell me a puppy, or I can decide if I am willing to live with their restrictions.
      Or maybe God (or one of his redneck angels) will drop another one off on the porch and I can save my money on the purchase of a puppy.
      I think you might be surprised at what breeders look for in a prospective home. I don't know many breeders that have a lot of money. If they do, they certainly don't get it from breeding dogs! The breeders I know are just regular people - they don't drive fancy cars, they don't have fancy houses, and they don't look for that in a home, either. In fact, I think my dog's breeder would be afraid to place a puppy in a house that was "too nice"....dogs chew things, they have accidents, they shed, they break stuff....I think she would be nervous that a "perfect home" would not be as forgiving to normal dog behavior.

      I don't have a fenced yard either. We run our dogs off leash every day, and my older one can be loose without running away, but my "show" dog gets tied out on a tie-out stake with a 30' tether. This is not a problem for me or my breeder, or a breeder we are considering getting a dog from next year.

      My breeder swears by Eukanuba, but a lot of breeders that show dogs also feed Purina One. You can get into the dog food debate if you want, but you might be surprised to learn that a lot of breeders don't feed raw, grain free or "natural"...nor would they care if you fed it.

      Anyway, I guess I am just pointing out that if your impression of "breeders" is based on what you find on the internet, they are not necessarily representative of the real breeders that are out there. I know a few breeders that have websites; I checked one I know yesterday after posting on this thread and they do not have any contract information on their website. Many breeders don't even have websites. But lots of "puppy mills" (posing as breeders) do.... so beware.

      As far as the registration thing - you are not paying for the piece of paper, but the breeding behind it. Many times the breeder registers the dogs anyway, so you will get it already registered. But my older dog is registered with the Canadian Kennel club as he was born in Canada, and when it became obvious he would outgrow the breed standard to show him here we did not register him with AKC either. It doesn't increase (or decrease) his value - the value is in the breeding, not the piece of paper.

      Comment


      • #23
        You are putting human emotions onto your pets. Your bitches do NOT have a "trust" that you will place their offspring in appropriate homes. They did not whelp "for you". They did it for "mother nature"

        A breeder wanting to come into my home would NOT occur unless it was my decision. I have bred Group Two (Afghan Hounds and Saluki's) for 40 years and have judged numerous sight hound speciaities. I have purchased and sold throughout those years and my concern is safe facility i.e. fenced yard (however one of the best homes was to a couple who lived in a loft and their dog was only walked on leash during the week)

        Generally, at One Thousand Dollars a buyer will be an appropriate home. Don't forget...the buyer is also at risk if they do not inspect the breeder. Since there is no blood typing nor DNA they will want to assure themselves they are purchasing from the EXACT stock of that breeder...even if it is "only" a pet stock.

        Invite the breeder into your life? Oh Oh...typically those are warning signs to a purchaser. Many times (not saying you are) those breeders start to make outlandish demands...especially on show stock.

        If there is not the appearance of common sense...and if the person you are purchasing from twigs you in any way...go to another breeder
        The Elephant in the room

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by TBRedHead View Post
          I can understand some of the dog ones, as stated by the above posted, however I am currently looking for another dog, found exactly what I wanted (*ranch bred*, red, smooth coat border collie, female, puppy) but the contract stated at 2 yrs the breeder would finish health testing, breed the dog and retain puppies. Seriously? I have to keep my dog away from other males, and deal with her period and pay more to have her registered with my county because she's not spayed? A lot of a breeder to ask.
          THAT is totally ridiculous! My advice - walk (no RUN) away as fast as you can!

          This *breeder* is merely looking for someone who will pay all the bills (feeding, vet, maybe training) for 2 years so that they, themselves, won't have to incur any expenses. Then, at the end of your financing the female for 2 full years, they will get the health testing done, breed her if she passes, and keep all the puppies (which they will sell for a nice profit I'm sure).

          And if the female does not pass the health testing - no skin off the breeder's back (except for the $ for testing). But at least they didn't have to incur any expenses for the two years that you've been financing their breeding machine!

          What happens if the female dies during delivery? You're devastated. You've lost your pet who you've undoubtedly become very attached to.

          As I said, RUN away as fast as your can from that *crook* of a so-called "breeder". You can find a better one - and one who won't be contracting for your poctketbook to pay for his/her breeding operation/profit making scheme.
          Last edited by Claddagh; Dec. 2, 2012, 02:48 PM. Reason: spelling

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
            Generally, at One Thousand Dollars a buyer will be an appropriate home. Don't forget...the buyer is also at risk if they do not inspect the breeder. Since there is no blood typing nor DNA they will want to assure themselves they are purchasing from the EXACT stock of that breeder...even if it is "only" a pet stock.
            I agree that the buyer is also at risk - definitely do your homework!

            But I disagree that "at One Thousand Dollars a buyer will be an appropriate home." What is appropriate isn't just whether the buyer can afford to have a dog, but that the buyer is the appropriate match for the type of dog. Not every prospective buyer is as savvy about each breed as they might need to be to select their pet (or show dog, or competition partner) appropriately.

            My own breed is a perfect example - people often say "the only Brittany I ever knew was insane" and wonder why mine are so quiet. But they don't realize the time we put in to train them so they can be run off leash and get the exercise they need every day to make them happy and a good pet to have in the house. That's why the breeder has to know their buyers - whether it be from a questionnaire, or a home visit, or just meeting them.

            My breeder doesn't do home visits but she does insist on meeting prospective buyers face to face before she approves them. She asks many questions, and she follows up with them after the puppies are placed. If that's too intrusive for some people, it's fine by her...she always has a waiting list.

            Comment


            • #26
              IMO, this trend is coming from a couple of changes.

              1. "New money"-- people with or without a long history of keeping animals do find themselves with $1K or many more to spend on it.

              2. "Accessorizing"-- a dog (and less so a horse) are seen as an accessory to the rest of your life.

              Because, ferchrissakes, who would spend $1K on a dog unless it was going to do a particular job for all that money? But then again, old skool dog owners and horsemen know this. They don't pay a dime more for the animal than his job description warrants.

              Also, I'd be psyched if horse breeders would sell their stock with guarantees about Navicular Disease, OCD, rotting ligaments and the rest of the congenital stuff.
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

              Comment


              • #27
                When I bought my show-quality golden retriever pup it was with the understanding that I would finish the dog and give him a brilliant show career. What's the problem when both parties agree? Even so, when I got cancer a year later and couldn't hack it, the breeder was fine with it. So in the end she had her $1200 bucks and I had a really good-looking dog to keep my feet warm during treatment. No harm, no foul.
                Dreadful Acres: the chronicle of my extraordinary unsuitability to country life

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by S1969 View Post
                  But I disagree that "at One Thousand Dollars a buyer will be an appropriate home." What is appropriate isn't just whether the buyer can afford to have a dog, but that the buyer is the appropriate match for the type of dog. Not every prospective buyer is as savvy about each breed as they might need to be to select their pet (or show dog, or competition partner) appropriately.

                  I get in a LOT of designer mutts purchased from pet stores or BYBs for grooming that people brag about paying anywhere from $2500-5K for. Did a $3500 "ACA" registered Cavalier puppy the other day that was an impulse buy. The lady was asking me how big the breed gets, what they look like when they're bigger, did I know what to feed a dog, how do you train them...total ignorant implulse buy and she couldn't even be bothered to follow up by googling 'dog care' or buying a book. Thank god the poor thing pissed all over itself and smelled so badly she was forced to my door, or she'd still be feeding it straight canned cat food (someone on FB told her that was "better") and still wouldn't know that it really should see the vet, since it has had no vaccinations ever and that the full-of-worms almost-water poo wasn't normal. I'd like to say this lady was an exception but if I had a dollar for everyone that brought in a puppy and asked me how big they get, what they grow up to look like and what the breed is like, I wouldn't just have to daydream about buying myself an andalusian.

                  Spending that much money, IME, means nothing. I see the same rates of puppies discarded before 6mo, dogs neglected by too-infrequent grooming (matted pelts, nails grown into paw pads, open sores and maggots under the hair), dogs abused by harsh, ignorant training methods - lifting small dogs off the ground by the choke collar, kicking and hitting - as I do with people who brought home the free impulse puppy off CL.

                  Stupid people come in all shapes and bank account sizes.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    honestly - i find it offensive that someone wants to put restrictions/rules on something i purchase from them.

                    if you want to keep control - don't sell it for pete's sake!

                    once it's mine i will do as i please - therefore i would *never* purchase something from someone who wanted restrictions on the purchase.

                    and fwiw i think "forever homes" are ridiculous - and probably not enforceable.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      At the end of the day, dogs and horses are not really comparable animals. Yes, some folks think of their horses as pets, and some people will sell their adult dogs, but for the most parts, a dog has a single owner it's whole life and when a puppy is sold by a responsible breeder, it is with the expectation that the purchaser will keep the puppy for the rest of it's life. A responsible dog breeder will also offer to take back a sold puppy if the purchaser is unable to care for it in the future.
                      Horses on the other hand are livestock. Yes, we love our horses - not discounting that, but most horses will be bought, sold, or otherwise rehomed more than once in their adult life. A breeder who offered to take back any foal for any reason would probably soon find themselves eaten out of house and home by retirees dumped back on them after their useful years.

                      I understand and respect the contracts put out there by responsible dog breeders (and on our last puppy we did have to renegotiate one point where we had different opinions based on our geography vs. breeders) but that's not what the original question was about.

                      No, I don't think that the horse industry is going the way of the dog industry. Pets vs livestock. As much as many of us think of horses as pets, they are not the same thing.

                      And for what it's worth, many dog rescues are OVER restrictive and turn away perfectly good potential adopters. I approve more of the horse adoption contracts that seem to be trying to prevent quick horse flippers.....
                      The rebel in the grey shirt

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by mbm View Post
                        honestly - i find it offensive that someone wants to put restrictions/rules on something i purchase from them.

                        if you want to keep control - don't sell it for pete's sake!

                        once it's mine i will do as i please - therefore i would *never* purchase something from someone who wanted restrictions on the purchase.

                        and fwiw i think "forever homes" are ridiculous - and probably not enforceable.
                        If you don't want the breeder to be involved, then don't buy from a breeder. Or find one that doesn't have any restrictions. There are breeders like that out there.

                        But if you want a well-bred dog with a solid, healthy pedigree, you can't expect all breeders to put that time and commitment into their breeding program and just sell them to anyone who shows up with cash. I mean, obviously some breeders will be happy to take the cash, but many of them....no. Most want some form of control, if only to ascertain that you are an appropriate home - that's just the nature of the beast. Very few "good" breeders would expect a random pet buyer to commit to showing or breeding contracts - that is a red flag...if I wanted a puppy to go to a show only home, there is no way I would sell it to someone who has never even gone to a dog show.

                        If you are really interested in a specific breed of dog, and you do your homework - go to dog shows, AKC Meet the Breed events, field trials, club events, whatever - you will most likely find a breeder that you will be happy to work with and vice versa. If you simply look on the internet, you will probably find the worst kind of "breeders".

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Fairfax View Post

                          Generally, at One Thousand Dollars a buyer will be an appropriate home. Don't forget...the buyer is also at risk if they do not inspect the breeder. Since there is no blood typing nor DNA they will want to assure themselves they are purchasing from the EXACT stock of that breeder...even if it is "only" a pet stock.
                          We've had $1000 dogs come into our rescue after they were abandoned. It's not really that uncommon. They are often scanned for a microchip, which is still listed to their breeder, and then returned to the breeder (which is why they put the chip in in the first place).

                          I'm all for buying health screened dogs from careful breeders. Yes, they care where the dog is going and aren't going to hand them over to just anyone. That's part of what makes them a good breeder.

                          OP-my experience has been they don't care if your house is a little cluttered. They just want to make sure it is a safe environment for a puppy they've put so much money, planning, and love into.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Sounds like a Brit'le Brand type contract.

                            No animal is worth jumping through those hoops for.
                            A pussycat of a horse with a chewed off tail won the triple crown, The Cubs won the world series and Trump won the Presidency.
                            Don't tell me 'It can't be done.'

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I think responsible breeders want to find a good match for the animals they produce. As a horse breeder, I see that there are other horse breeders out there who feel comfortable asking what I consider invasive personal questions about profession, income, marital status and the like. While I understand the intent, I don't think such questions are ok and when discussing a horse with a potential buyer I limit my questions to matters of riding ability and horsemanship. I've fielded these questions myself in my own horse searches and found them completely rude! I think that if someone's paying tens of thousands of dollars for a horse they will do their best to protect their investment by taking care of it. An old horseman once told me that when you cash the check the horse is no longer yours. I think there's some real wisdom to what he said. I happen to think this is why some people think horse breeder = crazy and why many people shop in Europe. While I of course do my best to foster a positive relationship with buyers and I love getting updates on those I've bred, I wouldn't consider trying to make it a legal or contractual requirement.
                              Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
                              Home of EM Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) and Donatella M (Furstenball/ Jazz Time)
                              'Like' us on Facebook

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by The Crone of Cottonmouth County View Post
                                When I bought my show-quality golden retriever pup it was with the understanding that I would finish the dog and give him a brilliant show career. What's the problem when both parties agree? Even so, when I got cancer a year later and couldn't hack it, the breeder was fine with it. So in the end she had her $1200 bucks and I had a really good-looking dog to keep my feet warm during treatment. No harm, no foul.

                                OT, but I am LOVING the Crone's blog! The latest tale of the "tantrum-throwin’ drunk-mowin’ whiny-ass handyman" had me in stitches!

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by hansiska View Post
                                  I think responsible breeders want to find a good match for the animals they produce. As a horse breeder, I see that there are other horse breeders out there who feel comfortable asking what I consider invasive personal questions about profession, income, marital status and the like. While I understand the intent, I don't think such questions are ok and when discussing a horse with a potential buyer I limit my questions to matters of riding ability and horsemanship. I've fielded these questions myself in my own horse searches and found them completely rude! I think that if someone's paying tens of thousands of dollars for a horse they will do their best to protect their investment by taking care of it. An old horseman once told me that when you cash the check the horse is no longer yours. I think there's some real wisdom to what he said. I happen to think this is why some people think horse breeder = crazy and why many people shop in Europe. While I of course do my best to foster a positive relationship with buyers and I love getting updates on those I've bred, I wouldn't consider trying to make it a legal or contractual requirement.
                                  Right.
                                  And if the buyer wants to see the sellers's farm for the same reasons that the seller gives for screening buyers and the seller is horrified then run don't walk away from the deal.
                                  I think you are right, this is why so many buy in Europe.
                                  Fan of Sea Accounts

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I think the "forever home" concept is a lot more realistic in the context of dogs than horses. Naturally, there are exceptions, but the overwhelming majority of dogs are first and foremost pets. Horses, on the other hand, are usually bought and sold to be used for specific purposes, rather than as companion animals. Horses also tend to live longer than dogs, so to commit to giving a 2-year-old horse a "forever home" may well mean 25 years or more.

                                    That said, most horse rescues, in my experience, have contracts that prevent the person who adopts a horse from ever being able to sell the horse in the future. While I understand the intent of the requirement (to keep the horses from ending up in bad situations), and I know the rescues' hearts are in the right place, this would deter me from wanting to adopt. For example, say someone adopts an OTTB and puts in countless hours working with the horse and retraining it for a new career ... And then, due to unforeseen circumstances, became unable to keep the horse. Rather than selling the horse to a good, suitable home and getting a little bit of return on investment for all the time and effort they put into retraining the horse, they have to give it back to the rescue to be "rehomed".

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I also think there's a big difference in pet vs livestock. Rescues may have similar (often unrealistic) contracts, but I've never seen a contract from a horse breeder that would rival dog and cat breeder contracts.

                                      I've bought pedigreed cats from two different breeders. Two came from the same breeder; I bought them as kittens and had a pretty standard contract. Even though we signed the contract, I got the impression from the breeder that it was a formality and nothing more. I've never heard from her again after buying the kittens, now three and four years ago. The other breeder is totally opposite; you can tell she has a genuine love and passion for all the cats she breeds. The contract was almost exactly the same as the first breeder, but she stays in contact and wants to make sure the kitty (as well as us) are happy and healthy. If we ever needed a place for him to go, she would take him back in a heartbeat. Some might call her intrusive or overstepping her bounds, but I know who I want to deal with in the future, if I ever buy another cat.
                                      Caitlin
                                      *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                      http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Holy cow. I have nary an interest in show dogs so never pursued any info. One of my Dachsies is show quality but no papers. The other is pet quality. My show quality one came from a lady in CO who raises them for truckers to take on the truck with them. The pet quality one came from a lady in OR who sort of breeds willy-nilly. I didn't have any idea there is so much to a dog contract.

                                        As for the OP, going to take a leap here and say, yeah, SOME day, SOME one will do this with horses, the rate we're going. I don't understand the ads which say the horse needs a 'forever home'. In this economy, anyone can guarantee such?? Personally, I won't/wouldn't buy a horse with any sort of contract, the horse is mine once my money hits their hands/bank account. I will take care of my horses to the best of my ability but there might come a day when I have to dump them quickly. I don't think that will happen but such is life and it's better to be realistic about it. Our local HS will take back horses but they are over-limit right now, couldn't take another one if they tried. So, even that route is blocked for the time being.

                                        Then, comes the part about how I think a saddle horse should be taken care of and how Sally Jane down the road thinks it should be done. I feel like a lot of owners go overboard in their care and I'm more of a minimalist care-taker. But I don't have lameness (except a horse I received knowing he was unridable) or illnesses in literally decades. So, I don't want anyone telling me how to improve my style in a contract.

                                        Hopefully, when the day comes when horse sellers have gone the way of dog contracts, that'll be past my day and I won't have to worry about it. Heh....
                                        GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

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                                        • #40
                                          I buy the dog or cat, they're mine to take care of in the way I feel is best for them.

                                          Yep, I spay/neuter my small critters. My cats are 100% indoor cats, I had my them declawed in front even though the "contract" said I wouldn't (don't care what anyone else's opinion is of the procedure either). Saved the furniture and their membership in the family. I just made sure I used vets who used what I considered the best/least painless method.

                                          For crazy, read some adoption questionaires and agreements...you never "own" the dog/cat/horse...you are foster homes and the animal can be seized at any time for any reason. Really nuts.

                                          These are the groups who'd rather kill an animal than have it adopted by someone they didn't like.
                                          "Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc"

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