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Moral Dilemma: What Would You Do?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Daventry:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But why is the fact that this horse is an OTTB important information unless the buyer is concerned about it?
    But, if the buyer is not disclosed regarding the horse, how can she decide whether she's concerned with it or not? Same goes if the horse has had surgery or a healing injury, the buyer needs to be informed up front so they can come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions.

    <span class="ev_code_GREEN">I disagree with this. I've been accused of giving out too much information about my sale horses, to the point of boring a prospective buyer rigid, so this wouldn't apply to me. But why, if your horse is sound and suitable for the prospective buyer's purpose ON THE DAY of the PPE, what does it matter? I'm for sure not going to disclose every bump, bruise, abscess or pulled muscle that a horse has. They're athletes, and get injured and heal just as human athletes do. To bog down the process of sale with irrelevant information is foolhardy, IMO. </span>

    Leading the buyer to believe he's just green and hasn't done much isn't the same thing as saying he was on the track!

    <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Why? He's still green and hasn't done much. What's the difference? Absolutely not trying to snark here, but I'm really curious as to why you feel that way. </span>

    I'm sorry but an OTTB has much different needs and training methods needed than just the average green horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <span class="ev_code_GREEN">I completely disagree. Most of the OTT TBs I've had contact with are no different than your average green horse. As someone else mentioned, the ones you find for sale are usually for sale because they're too slow and laid back to be racehorses. And as for having "much different needs and training methods", that's just plain silly. A green horse is a green horse is a green horse. I'd rather have an OTT TB than a pen-raised, highly bred QH, Arab or even a warmblood of the same age and level of experience. At least you know the horses on the track have had some manners and training; the same cannot always be said of a horse of unknown provenance and training.

    JMO. </span>
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

    Comment


    • #62
      My OTTB came off the track super easy, with a whoa that would put a reining horse to shame (seriously. Quit riding, don't touch reins, say "whhoooooaaaaa" and he sits right down.). He's gained energy with his downtime, so now is not so sluggish to move forward, but even hyper he is soooo easy in comparison to the arabX I used to own. (my namesake on here...).

      He would be fine in groups in the arena, lopes along cheerfully on the trail not caring at all if the herd is in front of or behind him. The only thing he does not do well with is horses moving right behind him - he doesn't like the pressure - so if we are trotting, he will canter off briefly and then be fine. He never moves faster than an easy canter (although I'm sure he would if I asked!).

      Would I try him in a drill practice scenario? Absolutely.

      Sell him to a teen? Well.. I'm not selling him to ANYONE, thanks - he is MINE forever. But... if he were for sale, yes, he would be suitable for a teen with some riding experience. He's just that laid back and mellow, albeit super sensitive, like most OTTBs.

      If it has been disclosed that he is green and has the potential to do well for drill but has not been tried - then that's fine. OTTB or not, who cares? he is green, he has not been tried in those situations, if the buyer buys him knowing that, then anything that arises from going too fast with him is their own fault.

      of course, if he is being presented as a seasoned horse...there is a problem.

      BC
      *&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&
      "Show me the back of a thoroughbred horse, and I will show you my wings."
      &*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&*&

      Comment


      • #63
        sure, esg, it could go wonderful, the horse might be a saint and the rider an undiscovered genius, but i can tell yiou this.

        for all the heart warming stories about saintly off the track 3 year olds, we are neglecting the many times the novice rider gets a horse off the track and it is too much for them. never seen that? i'd say that 9 times out of 10, people who get horses off the race track have a MISERABLE time trying to slow them down and control them. for every great story you can tell, i can recall 10 riders who were thrown, run off with and wound up getting hurt or qutting riding.

        YOU may think it's great, well, i'm here to say that not everyone who gets a horse off the track does that well with them. why would i say that? because it's true, and i've been watching it happen for 43 years.

        it would be far more likely to go wonderful if the kid was doing that with a 15 year old pony club horse that was 15 hands tall and a pinto draft cross and had lived in a pasture and been ridden twice a week doing those paces for the last 10 years by some other teenage girl who rode about as well as this one.

        the problem is more the buyer than anything else, i think, the buyer is just ignorant and a little too convinced that she can handle anything, but the seller is being a bit of an ass. still, being a bit of an ass is often part of being in business and making money, regretfully. you just have to decide what you are willing to put up with personally.

        i do know one lady who found a unique way to deal with these things. she worked for a dealer who was far more of a greaseball than yours and it really made her mad to see the dealer schmoozing people and bsing about the horses. she'd ask the buyer a few questions about this and that and just HAPPEN see the buyer in the parking lot, or downn the road or at the store or over at her own barn, coincidentally, and say, 'boy it just amazes me how you got up on that wild jughead, MAN i'm glad he didn't let er rip while you were up there, JESUS can he buck like a son of a *****'...well you get the picture. and ah...if the girl was a teenager, she knew that that would just make the kid want the horse more, so she'd just HAPPEN to say that in front of the girl's mom...the one writing the check and over 18 is the one to tell.

        for those who are queasy about the ethics of 'going behind the employer's back', yes, that's true, but the ethics of telling someone you KNOW a horse is dangerous for them are a little less shady than the dealer who sells a kid a crappy horse that the kid then goes and gets killed on.

        slc

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by cmw:
          sure, esg, it could go wonderful, the horse might be a saint and the rider an undiscovered genius, but i can tell yiou this.

          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Please show me where I said the rider was a genius and the horse a saint. I haven't a clue about either; I was merely relating personal experience. Sorry if that confused you. </span>

          for all the heart warming stories about saintly off the track 3 year olds, we are neglecting the many times the novice rider gets a horse off the track and it is too much for them. never seen that? i'd say that 9 times out of 10, people who get horses off the race track have a MISERABLE time trying to slow them down and control them. for every great story you can tell, i can recall 10 riders who were thrown, run off with and wound up getting hurt or qutting riding.

          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">And this buyer didn't go to the track, did she? She went to a trainer and tried a horse that evidently suited her. Why do you insist on bringing up hypothetical situations that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand? Are you that bored? </span>

          YOU may think it's great, well, i'm here to say that not everyone who gets a horse off the track does that well with them. why would i say that? because it's true, and i've been watching it happen for 43 years.

          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Again, read for comprehension. This buyer isn't getting a horse off the track. She's getting on from the trainer in question, one that she evidently liked and rode well. Stick to the point, will you?</span>

          it would be far more likely to go wonderful if the kid was doing that with a 15 year old pony club horse that was 15 hands tall and a pinto draft cross and had lived in a pasture and been ridden twice a week doing those paces for the last 10 years by some other teenage girl who rode about as well as this one.

          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Yes, you're probably right about that, but that's not what this buyer evidently wants is it? I'm ASSuming that you do acknowledge the right of a buyer to get the horse they want, rather than what you think they should have?</span>

          the problem is more the buyer than anything else, i think, the buyer is just ignorant and a little too convinced that she can handle anything, but the seller is being a bit of an ass.

          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">And you are privy to this knowledge how, exactly? You weren't there to see the girl ride the horse, nor to hear the conversation(s) the girl had with the trainer. You're making yourself look foolish by making these ASSumptions. </span>

          still, being a bit of an ass is often part of being in business and making money, regretfully. you just have to decide what you are willing to put up with personally.

          i do know one lady who found a unique way to deal with these things. she worked for a dealer who was far more of a greaseball than yours and it really made her mad to see the dealer schmoozing people and bsing about the horses. she'd ask the buyer a few questions about this and that and just HAPPEN see the buyer in the parking lot, or downn the road or at the store or over at her own barn, coincidentally, and say, 'boy it just amazes me how you got up on that wild jughead, MAN i'm glad he didn't let er rip while you were up there, JESUS can he buck like a son of a *****'...well you get the picture.

          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">And again, you're way off topic. There's been not one hint that this horse has done anything wrong, according to the OP. </span>


          and ah...if the girl was a teenager, she knew that that would just make the kid want the horse more, so she'd just HAPPEN to say that in front of the girl's mom...the one writing the check and over 18 is the one to tell.

          slc
          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">So you relate the tale of an employee of a "greaseball" trainer who liked to queer that trainer's sales? Peachy. Guess that employee had an even bigger God complex than you do, if she kept working for this "greaseball" just to queer sales and protect unsuspecting buyers. Why didn't she just quit, for chrissakes? How sad. </span>
          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
          A life lived by example, done too soon.
          www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

          Comment


          • #65
            CMW, I tend to agree with you. I have boarded with several OTTBs and have seen these owners dumped more often than not.
            One, would buck and bolt whenever another horse passed it in the ring. He was very unpredictable.

            YES yes yes this can happen with any horse. But these horses are hardwired to RUN. Just like some Q.H.s are hardwired to cut, rein, WP, etc.

            Yes, she must have tried him out. But where? In an enclosed arena? Did she take him out into an open field like she intends to do with him?

            Sorry, but a teen might not think to ask the same questions as an experienced horse person and IMO it is wrong to not disclose that this horse is 3 weeks off the track.
            MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
            http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

            Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

            Comment


            • #66
              I do the mirror test when it comes to these questions - can I look myself in the mirror if? and would I like the person looking back?

              Never has failed me in 36 years of horse dealings - I always disclose everything about a horse that I know, the good, the bad and the downright ugly. I've had one horse returned in the past due to buyer's remorse and it was one that the buyer insisted on having due to it being "prettier" than the older gelding she should have bought. I disclosed this to her, that I felt that the younger horse would not be suitable and in less than a month she called and asked if I would take the young horse back and exchange it for the older horse. I did and lost money on the deal, but knew that was the right thing to do..sometimes buyers overestimate themselves and for the sake of my horses and the purchasers, I'd rather disclose. I might lose a sale or two, but then I can always get up and look myself in the mirror...and know I did the right thing.

              Just for the record - I do have two ex racers, both TBs. One is a horse with a heck of a work ethic, the other is content to be ridden once a week with a halter and lead. Different horses, different temperments but both much cared for and loved.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by ESG:
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cmw:
                sure, esg, it could go wonderful, the horse might be a saint and the rider an undiscovered genius, but i can tell yiou this.

                <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Please show me where I said the rider was a genius and the horse a saint. I haven't a clue about either; I was merely relating personal experience. Sorry if that confused you. </span>

                for all the heart warming stories about saintly off the track 3 year olds, we are neglecting the many times the novice rider gets a horse off the track and it is too much for them. never seen that? i'd say that 9 times out of 10, people who get horses off the race track have a MISERABLE time trying to slow them down and control them. for every great story you can tell, i can recall 10 riders who were thrown, run off with and wound up getting hurt or qutting riding.

                <span class="ev_code_GREEN">And this buyer didn't go to the track, did she? She went to a trainer and tried a horse that evidently suited her. Why do you insist on bringing up hypothetical situations that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand? Are you that bored? </span>

                YOU may think it's great, well, i'm here to say that not everyone who gets a horse off the track does that well with them. why would i say that? because it's true, and i've been watching it happen for 43 years.

                <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Again, read for comprehension. This buyer isn't getting a horse off the track. She's getting on from the trainer in question, one that she evidently liked and rode well. Stick to the point, will you?</span>

                it would be far more likely to go wonderful if the kid was doing that with a 15 year old pony club horse that was 15 hands tall and a pinto draft cross and had lived in a pasture and been ridden twice a week doing those paces for the last 10 years by some other teenage girl who rode about as well as this one.

                <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Yes, you're probably right about that, but that's not what this buyer evidently wants is it? I'm ASSuming that you do acknowledge the right of a buyer to get the horse they want, rather than what you think they should have?</span>

                the problem is more the buyer than anything else, i think, the buyer is just ignorant and a little too convinced that she can handle anything, but the seller is being a bit of an ass.

                <span class="ev_code_GREEN">And you are privy to this knowledge how, exactly? You weren't there to see the girl ride the horse, nor to hear the conversation(s) the girl had with the trainer. You're making yourself look foolish by making these ASSumptions. </span>

                still, being a bit of an ass is often part of being in business and making money, regretfully. you just have to decide what you are willing to put up with personally.

                i do know one lady who found a unique way to deal with these things. she worked for a dealer who was far more of a greaseball than yours and it really made her mad to see the dealer schmoozing people and bsing about the horses. she'd ask the buyer a few questions about this and that and just HAPPEN see the buyer in the parking lot, or downn the road or at the store or over at her own barn, coincidentally, and say, 'boy it just amazes me how you got up on that wild jughead, MAN i'm glad he didn't let er rip while you were up there, JESUS can he buck like a son of a *****'...well you get the picture.

                <span class="ev_code_GREEN">And again, you're way off topic. There's been not one hint that this horse has done anything wrong, according to the OP. </span>


                and ah...if the girl was a teenager, she knew that that would just make the kid want the horse more, so she'd just HAPPEN to say that in front of the girl's mom...the one writing the check and over 18 is the one to tell.

                slc
                <span class="ev_code_GREEN">So you relate the tale of an employee of a "greaseball" trainer who liked to queer that trainer's sales? Peachy. Guess that employee had an even bigger God complex than you do, if she kept working for this "greaseball" just to queer sales and protect unsuspecting buyers. Why didn't she just quit, for chrissakes? How sad. </span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                No offense ESG, but I think you may be the person who is bored. The O.P. asked for opinions and we gave them. Is it really your job to rip apart everyones opinions on the matter? Geez....
                MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
                http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

                Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                Comment


                • #68
                  [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nibbs:

                  It is a big deal because people have a stereotypical veiw of TBs who are off the track. They are charecterized as hot, and uncontrolable, often broken down. The trainer simply doesn't want to scare the buyer away.
                  QUOTE]

                  It is a fact that sometimes folks will believe a stereotype re a particular kind of horse - OTTB here - and it will scare away a sale strictly because of someone's incorrect notions. My beef with this trader is about a different aspect.

                  When a buyer inquires about buying a particular horse suitable for a particular purpose, ie plans to put said horse to work immediately in close quarters with other horses at top speeds, and the rest of it, the horse's fairly recent racing background is relevant.

                  More times than I can count, I have said the same thing as sidepasser - could I look in the mirror on this one, and live with myself? My answer is no. Your mileage may vary.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    The buyer plans to buy the horse and put him immediately in a large pasture and begin riding in twice-weekly practices with her drill team at speed in close quarters, without a period of acclimation, as well as jumping cross country at a fairly high rate of speed.
                    Doesn't this teenager have a trainer? If she's working with a drill team she's got to have some kind of coach. I can't imagine a teenager buying a horse all on her own. Although I know people do make stupid decisions when it comes to buying horses.

                    If she came to try the horse, did she ride him over some cross country jumps to see how he went? I've bought horses to event and I've never bought a horse without jumping it unless I knew it was really green. And if that's the case, I knew it was really green. I do find it hard to believe that anyone who intends to jump cross country at high rates of speed (and who's done it before) doesn't know at least some of the basic questions to ask.

                    What's your obligation? Hard to know. Maybe you could casually ask what her trainer thinks of th horse?
                    Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                    EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Dude... I LOFF OTTBs. LOFF LOFF LOFF. My dream goal is to have a barn and retrain them for careers after racing. I look at the CANTER sites every day and drool. A lot of the horses I ride that are for resale at my barn are OTTBs. Mostly they're just green horses.

                      But never in the world would I recommend a horse fresh off the track for the purposes mentioned. Once he's had time to come down a bit and you can really see how he is without the track mentality, it MIGHT be a different story. Remember that often times OTTBs really don't have any training except for track training, so they don't know things like leg cues or mounting blocks or rein aids. Can you imagine what would happen if the girl got the horse out XC and he took off and she pulled back to stop, which to him only meant that he was supposed to go faster.....

                      And, FWIW, not all OTTBs are young. There's plenty who are 9, 10, 11, 12... That doesn't scream "green" to the average horse person. Plus, remember that the OP changed "tons" of details, so it might not even be about an OTTB in the first place. Take the situation based on the scenario she gave; it's okay to put out considerations for the other side, but it seems many of you are assuming that the OP is just plain wrong and doesn't know the whole story.

                      Also, I'm just shocked at how many of you see no problem with the trainer's behavior. And by the way, if some asks "What's the horse's history?" and the trainer replies "I don't know much," that in itself is not really accurate. She would at least know how long the horse has been at the farm and where he came from before. It's not like she popped up from a hole in the ground and was told to show the horse to someone - she's the trainer and trader. Don't pretend like she's just trying to play up the horse's strengths - she's deliberately omitting facts that are highly relevant and affect the safety of those involved. What if the reason the horse was retired was because it was claustrophobic and freaked out in the starting gate half the time, rearing or crushing the jockey or something. True, that's not drill work, and he MIGHT not react the same way, but it would be fraudulent to represent the horse as suitable for such work.

                      Please. "The trainer's the victim?" And for those of you saying "why didn't the buyer ask if he was off the track?" Again, it might not be the actual situation - the horse might not be an OTTB, but it also might be something so completely ridiculous that one shouldn't HAVE to ask.... like "what color is he?" But, you know, if the trainer had dyed him a different color to make a grey into a chestnut, since some people don't like greys, and so the horse looks chestnut, are you going to ask "Hey, is that horse really chestnut? Or is he actually grey?" And color can be important (especially in something like a drill team!) so this might make or break the deal.

                      For those of you who don't see anything wrong with such a scenario... where's the freaking fruitbat?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Say you are a working student for a trainer who buys and sell horses. She happens to have a horse for sale who has been off the track for three weeks. Said horse is great in an arena or round pen by himself and has been fine in small groups for trail rides, an all around good fellow, but has never been kept in a herd situation and hasn't gone faster than a trot in close company since he left the track.


                        Next, say someone comes to look at said horse. The potential buyer is a teen with a few years of experience riding. She wants a horse to do pair paces with and to join her barn's drill team. Trainer claims not to know much about the horse's history, but talks him up and never mentions that he was on the track at all, much less on the track recently. Trainer also does not mention that the horse hasn't worked at speed in company and might run off. Trainer simply says it is a great horse and worth every penny.

                        The buyer plans to buy the horse and put him immediately in a large pasture and begin riding in twice-weekly practices with her drill team at speed in close quarters, without a period of acclimation, as well as jumping cross country at a fairly high rate of speed.
                        After re-reading the OP, I find these paragraphs to say a lot. It is incredibly evident that the teenage buyer does not have a lot of experience so probably doesn't know the right questions to ask. The trainer does not disclose that the horse has only been off the track 3 weeks. OTTB's need more than 3 weeks to come down. Not all, but most. I think a number of people need to actually re-read the post line by line. It very much sounds like the trainer is trying to pull the wool over a kid's eyes. And not everyone has a trainer. Some people have actually learned by asking questions watching and making a lot of mistakes. And drill teams do have coaches but where does it say that this teenager consulted any adult?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Can you imagine what would happen if the girl got the horse out XC and he took off and she pulled back to stop, which to him only meant that he was supposed to go faster.....
                          Exactly my point. Which is why I saved my breath and didn't explain it as few seem to understand the difference between a green horse and most OTTB "fresh off of the track".

                          But, if the buyer is not disclosed regarding the horse, how can she decide whether she's concerned with it or not? Same goes if the horse has had surgery or a healing injury, the buyer needs to be informed up front so they can come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions.

                          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">I disagree with this. I've been accused of giving out too much information about my sale horses, to the point of boring a prospective buyer rigid, so this wouldn't apply to me. But why, if your horse is sound and suitable for the prospective buyer's purpose ON THE DAY of the PPE, what does it matter? I'm for sure not going to disclose every bump, bruise, abscess or pulled muscle that a horse has. They're athletes, and get injured and heal just as human athletes do. To bog down the process of sale with irrelevant information is foolhardy, IMO. </span>
                          Wow! Remind me never to buy from you guys. Here's the deal for me. I currently have a lovely, lovely young horse for sale who had OCD surgery as a yearling. It was orthoscopic and healed beautifully. Swear to God, you CANNOT see a single incision mark and x-rays show nothing so...if I don't disclose that she had surgery, no one would know.

                          What's the first thing I tell people when they phone about her - she had OCD surgery. Sorry, but some of us like to sleep at night. Chances are, it shouldn't change anything for this mare as the OCD was on her Tibia Tarsal which has a great success rate but, with OCD comes the potential for possible future OCD, arthritis, etc.

                          And, it's OK to hide it just because people don't ask the right questions and she happens to pass the vet check? Holy, no wonder we get blasted with the term "horse theif"!! Thanks, but I'd rather sleep at night, have the buyer know what they are getting and be successful at selling because I'm honest!

                          I would rather give out too much information than too little
                          www.DaventryEquestrian.com
                          Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                          Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
                          www.EquineAppraisers.com

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Nibbs:
                            This is what pre purchase exams are for. Bringing up every old ingury will only scare potential buyers away. If the horse passes the vet, any old injuries are irrelevent.
                            Attitudes like this are exactly why the term "horse trader" has taken on such a negative connotation. "Passing the vet" does NOT erase old injuries/conditions, or the predisposition to those injuries/conditions. My horse "passed the vet" in spite of an old suspensory injury, which had been WISELY disclosed to me. I say WISELY because if I hadn't known, and had tried to jump this horse extensively post-purchase, he would probably have broken down. IT IS IN THE HORSE'S BEST INTEREST THAT ITS ENTIRE KNOWN HISTORY BE DISCLOSED to any prospective buyer serious enough to have it vetted! Obviously "tire kickers" don't need to know everything...but if someone wants to vet a horse with the intention of buying, you'd better come clean with them, for their sake AND the horse's!

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                            • #74
                              I have researched the law.

                              Article 2 of the The Uniform Commercial Code; 2-315. Implied Warranty: Fitness for Particular Purpose.

                              "Where the seller at the time of contracting has reason to know any particular purpose for which the goods are required and that the buyer is relying on the seller's skill or judgment to select or furnish suitable goods, there is unless excluded or modified under the next section an implied warranty that the goods shall be fit for such purpose. "

                              When this law is applied to our hypothetical sale of this OTTB. This basically means that if the girl has actually informed the trainer that she: "plans to begin riding in twice-weekly practices with her drill team at speed in close quarters, and jump cross country at fairly high rates of speed", and the trainer knows, or even suspects, that this horse is unsafe to be ridden for that particular purpose. Then the trainer is responsible under the law to inform the girl that this horse may be unfit for her intended use of the horse.

                              In summery:

                              Under US law, when selling a horse, the seller is required to honestly answer all of the buyers questions. If the buyer states that they are buying the horse for a particular purpose, and the seller knows or suspects that the horse is unsuitable for that purpose, the seller must inform the buyer.

                              So the OP's instinct to say something is right. It may not be her responsibility as she is not the seller, but she is correct that girl should be told.

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                              • Original Poster

                                #75
                                Thanks everyone for the responses- my initial instinct has for the most part been confirmed. Thanks also to Percheron X for the actual law regarding this- I was sure there was something, but I didn't know where to look. As I said, some people here might know where I work so I can't give the correct details and everything has been changed, but I will try to explain within the context of the analogy what I ended up doing:

                                The mother of the teen was with her but obviously somewhat new to horse buying. I pulled the mother aside as she was walking to her car to get her jacket and said something along the lines of, "It might be fun to look up his race record online. I know a good site if you want it- it has replays of all the recent races."

                                She was of course surprised to hear that the horse was recently raced. I didn't give her any further specifics and left it to her to ask the seller for details- which she did. Seller was still somewhat deceptive, but the mother had caught on and seen red flags, so she decided to look at other horses for her 14 year old daughter. I was very nearly fired, but the barn manager does not want to do my work- so she un-fired me.

                                Don't mean to interrupt a good debate- just thought I'd put in my actual response now that I've gotten four pages worth of what others would have done.

                                As for the actual details, I still feel it necessary not to disclose them, although I appreciate why a couple people said I should post details for others' benefit. If anyone is in the area and looking to buy a horse and wants the name, I'll give it to you by PT. The seller usually has some nice horses, but is often deceptive about details. This is the first case in which the seller has hidden a fact that I thought was so unsafe to keep from the buyer and her mother that I spoke up.

                                If anyone really wants the exact scenario, they are free to PT me as well, but I will not post it publicly.
                                "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Gandhi

                                -my gelding is a ho clique-

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                                • #76
                                  Your welcome!

                                  You sound like a caring and conscientious person and I hope at some point you can work for someone who will appreciate you for caring about others.

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                                  • #77
                                    When this law is applied to our hypothetical sale of this OTTB. This basically means that if the girl has actually informed the trainer that she: "plans to begin riding in twice-weekly practices with her drill team at speed in close quarters, and jump cross country at fairly high rates of speed", and the trainer knows, or even suspects, that this horse is unsafe to be ridden for that particular purpose. Then the trainer is responsible under the law to inform the girl that this horse may be unfit for her intended use of the horse.
                                    The only reason the horse is unsuitable is because it is green, not because it is off the track. No green horse on the planet is suitable for that purpose, IMO.

                                    She was of course surprised to hear that the horse was recently raced. I didn't give her any further specifics and left it to her to ask the seller for details- which she did. Seller was still somewhat deceptive, but the mother had caught on and seen red flags, so she decided to look at other horses for her 14 year old daughter. I was very nearly fired, but the barn manager does not want to do my work- so she un-fired me.
                                    Okay, so now because of their stereotypical veiw of OTTBs, this horse has lost a potential home, for wich the SELLER decided it was suitable for? And you think you did something good here? If the seller liked the horse, it really is quite irrelevent what it did in the past. This is the reason so many people turn down great TBs and they end up going to a slaughter house.

                                    Can anyone explain to me why using a OTTB for this is any worse than using any type of green horse for this purpose? Seems to me this girl wants a greenie and will probably just buy one anyway, only it wont be a OTTB.

                                    Your trainer should have fired you. I would have.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Ohhh I dont know, if I was dealing with a trainer like that I would walk the other way. I dont know if details were left out, but the buyer sounds like a minor.. Does she not have a parent or trainer watching out for her?? I know they always say buyer beware, but to me if the seller does not say the horse is fresh off the track.. Well, I know for me, I have disclosed everything about a horse I sell I have found that if you dont alot of times it comes back to bite you in the ass in this day and age. especially in the horse world! Even if it is something minor!

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                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Huntertwo:
                                        No offense ESG, but I think you may be the person who is bored. The O.P. asked for opinions and we gave them. Is it really your job to rip apart everyones opinions on the matter? Geez....
                                        No offense to you either, but I didn't rip anyone apart. Well, maybe cmw, but she asked for it. The questions I addressed to Daventry are just that - questions. I'm trying to figure out why folks think that not disclosing that a horse has been on the track (especially since we still don't really know whether or not that's the case) is such a big deal.

                                        And no, I'm not bored.
                                        In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                        A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                        www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Nibbs:
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> When this law is applied to our hypothetical sale of this OTTB. This basically means that if the girl has actually informed the trainer that she: "plans to begin riding in twice-weekly practices with her drill team at speed in close quarters, and jump cross country at fairly high rates of speed", and the trainer knows, or even suspects, that this horse is unsafe to be ridden for that particular purpose. Then the trainer is responsible under the law to inform the girl that this horse may be unfit for her intended use of the horse.
                                          The only reason the horse is unsuitable is because it is green, not because it is off the track. No green horse on the planet is suitable for that purpose, IMO.

                                          She was of course surprised to hear that the horse was recently raced. I didn't give her any further specifics and left it to her to ask the seller for details- which she did. Seller was still somewhat deceptive, but the mother had caught on and seen red flags, so she decided to look at other horses for her 14 year old daughter. I was very nearly fired, but the barn manager does not want to do my work- so she un-fired me.
                                          Okay, so now because of their stereotypical veiw of OTTBs, this horse has lost a potential home, for wich the SELLER decided it was suitable for? And you think you did something good here? If the seller liked the horse, it really is quite irrelevent what it did in the past. This is the reason so many people turn down great TBs and they end up going to a slaughter house.

                                          Can anyone explain to me why using a OTTB for this is any worse than using any type of green horse for this purpose? Seems to me this girl wants a greenie and will probably just buy one anyway, only it wont be a OTTB.

                                          Your trainer should have fired you. I would have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Ditto. Nicely put. </span>
                                          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                          A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                          www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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