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Moral Dilemma: What Would You Do?

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  • #41
    I really don't see how the trainer is unethical at all?

    I assume the buyer rode and tried the horse out and that it went well or she would not be still considering him.
    It is unethical - the term "disclosure" comes into play here. Even if the buyer has not asked the right questions, the seller is holding important information back and they can be sued for disclosure.

    As for the working student, I agree with mp's motto about never giving unsolicited advice. The working student can't be sure what was said on the phone to the buyer or in private, etc. and, as already stated, the buyer came out to see and try-out said horse and the ball is now in the court of the buyer.

    It would be nice to save everybody around the world from making mistakes but, unfortunately you can't, and it is Murphy's Law that it will most likely end up coming down on your head if you try! Rest assured, be prepared to lose your job if you decide to intervene. But really, do you want to be working under a trainer like that anyways?
    www.DaventryEquestrian.com
    Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
    Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
    www.EquineAppraisers.com

    Comment


    • #42
      But why is the fact that this horse is an OTTB important information unless the buyer is concerned about it?

      It's not a bad thing...especially if the girl rode the horse and got a long with it. If this girl is looking for a horse to do drill with and looking at a horse who has never done it...it doesn't matter what breed the horse is or what it has done in the past. Anytime you buy a horse for something that it has not previously been trained for, you are running a risk that they might not adapt...is the seller obligated to inform the buyer of this? IMO...that is the job of the buyer's trainer and it should not be the fault of the seller that the buyer does not have one.
      \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

      Comment


      • #43
        The way I was raised, purposely omitting the truth for the purpose of misleading is just as bad as lying.

        I have no problems with someone saying, for example, he's worth every penny, has incredible potential in x, y, and z, so on and so forth but to specifically withhold information that is extremely important in many ways is definitely unethical in my book. Just because a buyer may not have known/thought enough to ask doesn't make it okay for the seller to omit the info. That's just taking advantage and although not illegal, ethically and morally wrong.
        **Member of the Modified Riders Clique and the "End TWH Big Lick Abuse" Clique**

        Comment


        • #44
          Again, what does it matter if he was off the track or not? It does not as long as the horse is suitable for the girls needs.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by mp:
            My motto about the horse world:

            Never give unsolicited advice to anyone, unless disaster for horse or human is clearly imminent. The person you advise will resent it, especially if it turns out you're right.

            My motto about working in the horse business or any other field:

            If you feel you're working for an unethical person or company, find another job. You won't ever feel comfortable. And if they're truly unethical, you don't want to be tarred with the same brush.
            Wiser words have never been spoken.

            Comment


            • #46
              But why is the fact that this horse is an OTTB important information unless the buyer is concerned about it?
              But, if the buyer is not disclosed regarding the horse, how can she decide whether she's concerned with it or not? Same goes if the horse has had surgery or a healing injury, the buyer needs to be informed up front so they can come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions.

              Leading the buyer to believe he's just green and hasn't done much isn't the same thing as saying he was on the track! I'm sorry but an OTTB has much different needs and training methods needed than just the average green horse.
              www.DaventryEquestrian.com
              Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
              Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
              www.EquineAppraisers.com

              Comment


              • #47
                I can certainly see where the OP might get burned on this one if she discloses info about the horse that the seller didn't want disclosed. Who is right doesn't matter when firings go on.

                First off, when I sell a horse, the first thing I ask is if they have a trainer or a friend that knows their riding ability. then, i mention that they too are absolutely welcome to come see the horse with them, or at a separate time. I don't want to hear in the end that someone accused me of something later in regards to the horse, if the horse isn't progressing quite like they'd like. Or maybeI'm confrontation-avoidant.

                here's what I would do: you have the option of telling the potential buyer in private or "accidentally" in front of the seller to bring their trainer. That way, you didn't disclse the info that you shouldn't have, and you didn't necessarily speak that out of line, you just made an "airheaded" mistake. If the seller rips your head off unecessarily about it, I think you will have made a decision whether or not you want to stay there, and on a more personal note. I mention this because I feel the OP not only has a moral dilema about the sale of this horse, but about who she's working for in general.

                Best of luck to you!
                RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                5/5/84-7/12/08

                Comment


                • #48
                  I'm sorry too because I don't feel that all Ottb's have very different needs than any other type of horse. Some do, but some home bred/raised warmbloods have special needs too. There are special exceptions to Everything. If this girl was concerned she would have asked. Hopefully her drill team trainer would have told her to not get an OTTB if it was something that they coundn't work with or don't use for drill teams. Again, how do we know that she didn't ask?

                  By the trainer making an issue of it may imply that she should be wary. The fact that she didn't (from what we know) can be interpreted different ways...trainer was being sneaky or it is a non-issue. I give as much history that I know, but truthfully I really don't put too much stock into history because it can't be verified oftentimes. People lie about history, and not always on purpose or to cover up. Sometimes things just get screwed up along the way (ever play telephone as a child?)

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Daventry, I hear what you are saying to an extent...but I disagree that the buyer needs to know information that is irrelevant to the sale (not necessarily saying that being off the track is). For example, I don't see why a buyer would need to know that horse they are looking at had an abcess the year before if they are perfectly sound at the time of the viewing? You'll most likely just scare the buyers off for no reason.

                    The girl tried out the horse and it went well (I am assuming as the OP did not mention anything to the contrary). The girl is looking at a horse that has never done drill practice...whatever breed, whatever it's history...she obviously understands that this horse has not done drill practice before and if she's still interested...than I don't see why the seller would try to discourage her with warnings of what may never be an issue?
                    \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Huntertwo:
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by olympicprincess:
                      I'm with others that OTTBs can be so level-headed and that ANY HORSE CAN CAUSE INJURY. I have a young OTTB being used as a LESSON HORSE (gasp! ) teaching little girls to trot and canter. He's 10x calmer than my TB who is unraced.

                      Is the OP maybe a bit biased against OTTBs?
                      But, I'm sure you tried him throughly before putting small children on him?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>not really.

                      (I should probably put my flame suit on here... )

                      Actually I saw him ONCE ridden at a college (where I was not permitted to ride) in Sept., negotiated and bought him the end of Nov. on a Friday...gave him Fri. off, rode him Sat., gave a lesson on him on Sun. (granted, to a girl who could already w-t-c and jump tiny fences on experienced horses. ) By week two- new riders were riding him.

                      But I knew the type of horse he was. There are hot OTTBs and then there are mellow puppy-dog personalities, like my Ripley.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by coco:
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mp:
                        My motto about the horse world:

                        Never give unsolicited advice to anyone, unless disaster for horse or human is clearly imminent. The person you advise will resent it, especially if it turns out you're right.

                        My motto about working in the horse business or any other field:

                        If you feel you're working for an unethical person or company, find another job. You won't ever feel comfortable. And if they're truly unethical, you don't want to be tarred with the same brush.
                        Wiser words have never been spoken. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Gee, thanks.

                        I had to learn #1 on my own. Luckily for me, #2 was ingrained in me from early childhood on.

                        Thanks, Daddy.
                        __________________________
                        "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                        the best day in ten years,
                        you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by olympicprincess:
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huntertwo:
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by olympicprincess:
                          I'm with others that OTTBs can be so level-headed and that ANY HORSE CAN CAUSE INJURY. I have a young OTTB being used as a LESSON HORSE (gasp! ) teaching little girls to trot and canter. He's 10x calmer than my TB who is unraced.

                          Is the OP maybe a bit biased against OTTBs?
                          But, I'm sure you tried him throughly before putting small children on him?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>not really.

                          (I should probably put my flame suit on here... )

                          Actually I saw him ONCE ridden at a college (where I was not permitted to ride) in Sept., negotiated and bought him the end of Nov. on a Friday...gave him Fri. off, rode him Sat., gave a lesson on him on Sun. (granted, to a girl who could already w-t-c and jump tiny fences on experienced horses. ) By week two- new riders were riding him.

                          But I knew the type of horse he was. There are hot OTTBs and then there are mellow puppy-dog personalities, like my Ripley. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          My OTTB is great. Even at 22 with many issues, I adore that animal silly. He came to me very greenbroke, he did race, and he had no idea how to turn, go, or stop! Hyper? Not him. I left many spur marks initially when I first got him, I had no one to help me on the ground. he's forgotten all about that now. And my guy has taught several kids how to ride the canter, and that was by riding him double bareback with me. Matter of fact, ANYONE who got on him, he would put on his best manners and not listen to them very much. One of my fav memories of one jumper trainer I used was when he got on, my guy cantered a 4 foot fence. the trainer with spurs and a whip could NOT get him to gallop. Bo wasn't sure that my trainer was ready for that kind of business. Yep, OTTBs...crazier than all get out I tell you!

                          Crazy as it sounds, last year I sold a 3 YO OTTB just out of race training to a 14 year old for her first horse. They since have sold the mare (already, impatient people) because she doesn't "know anything" and is so hard to move forward. You can imagine why we jacked her from race training. Oh, and their trainer is very peeved with the former owners, the mare was a fabulous mover with a lot of potential in hunters.

                          Another horse I sold last year, I made sure to be very detailed to the prospective owners (who thinks he hung the moon, still!) because simply kissing or clucking makes him bolt. He was taught this in his race training. I was worried that on a new horse, if he didn't move off the leg right away, she'd cluck, then he'd be found in the next state, and her somewhere in between! They have since resolved that issue, and he loves his new career of 3 day!

                          Yes, a horse out of race training may or may not need some special schooling for a while, but doesn't everyone have to adjust to a new horse/new rider, as several OTTB owners here have mentioned? As many as I have dealt with over the years, MOST were not hot. But that's my experiences I guess.
                          RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                          5/5/84-7/12/08

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Could the OP simply ask the trainer, "Are you sure (buyer) knows OTTB is off the track? Because she's talking about doing stuff he's probably not ready for." This might provide a clearer picture of what has or has not been disclosed.

                            Otherwise, considering that the OP is young and (presumably) hasn't been involved in the horse industry for very long, she could just play dumb...as in walking up to trainer and prospective buyer with a printout of the OTTB's pedigree from the Del Mar database, and saying, "Hey you guys, I found OTTB's pedigree online and thought you might like to see it! Did you know that he won $56,280 on the track? How COOL is that?"

                            If the trainer doesn't mind at all, or is even happy you found the information for him/her, then you know there's probably nothing to worry about.

                            BUT, if the trainer is truly attempting to mislead the potential buyer, s/he will most likely be HOPPING MAD at this "helpfulness;" but apart from reading you the riot act at some point, there's not much else s/he can do about it. Your defense? You're a kid and you just DIDN'T KNOW! You were only trying to help! (a few tears at this point would be good ) But, now you know and you'll never, ever do it again.

                            Of course, if the trainer is truly anal, a stunt like this could get you kicked to the curb, however innocent you play it. If that happens (or you think it's likely to happen), you'll be better off elsewhere.

                            I honestly would NOT intentionally pull the buyer aside and tell her anything. Whether the trainer is being unethical or not, YOU don't want to be unethical by going behind her back. If you say ANYTHING, directly or indirectly (as above), it needs to be out in the open, with the trainer present. Takes guts, but it's the aboveboard way to go. Good luck!

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Linny:
                              Assuming all the info the OP stated is accurate:

                              The seller has been informed of what the buyer is looking for. She may not have specifically LIED or misrepresented the horse but she does know that she has no knowledge of the horse having the right skill-set for the job. Buyer said she wants a horse to be put to use right away. That would tend to eliminate a very green horse. A pro selling a teenager a green and questionable commodity to take to competition soon is (IMO) acting unethically. (I'm a HUGE OTTB fan and I tend to think that many a level headed right off the track.)
                              The problem is that this horse has not been tested for anything. The seller saying "we dont know much about him..." might send up red flags to other pro's or seasoned vets but a teenager might not finish that sentence accurately.
                              I agree.

                              And if I were a seller, and heard the kid's intended use, I would have said he was 3 weeks off the track, seems to do really well by himself in an arena and with small groups on the trail, but that he hasn't yet had experience in a larger setting. Wanna buy the horse and see what it can do? My sniff test is that I would feel devious not mentioning the racing part, esp. given the kid's goals. Ick, but to each his own.

                              I part company who those who think the trainer hasn't lied at the point where said trainer states that they don't know much about the horse's history, when in fact they refuse to disclose one piece of the history that they know for a fact. And a piece which could help the kid determine if this were the right horse for the job. Once the kid asked about suitability for a specific job at a specific level, this trainer's vague "don't know the history, except the ottb part, about which I won't tell you" response becomes more than an ethical issue, to moi.

                              If it is no big deal,then why not tell her? I suspect it is because the horse is overpriced and/or that the trainer suspects it may not do the job as defined - which is to be put immediately to use as defined by the kid.

                              Is this trainer dealing with a parental unit or with the kid directly? You said she was a "teen" - is the kid under the age limit to contract in her state? Just curious.

                              Also - I wouldn't go off into a parade of horribles re what the poor horse might do or the damage he might cause...blah blah, who knows? But yeah, I would do as others suggest, and create an opportunity where I could say "gee, pretty cool for horse just off the track." Then it would be up to the kid to act sensibly or not when introducing it to the routine.

                              Edited for a bunch of stuff.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Here's good article about legal obligations for buyer and sellers.
                                http://theequinejournal.com/issue37/mbeetheart.html

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  I find it interesting that with all the questions raised in this discussion, the OP hasn't responded to any of them, or volunteered any further information. Perhaps she was looking for validation of her perspective and not open to anything else?

                                  Just a thought............
                                  In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                  A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                  www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Same goes if the horse has had surgery or a healing injury, the buyer needs to be informed up front so they can come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions.
                                    I disagree.

                                    This is what pre purchase exams are for. Bringing up every old ingury will only scare potential buyers away. If the horse passes the vet, any old injuries are irrelevent.

                                    If it is no big deal,then why not tell her? I suspect it is because the horse is overpriced and/or that the trainer suspects it may not do the job as defined - which is to be put immediately to use as defined by the kid.
                                    It is a big deal because people have a stereotypical veiw of TBs who are off the track. They are charecterized as hot, and uncontrolable, often broken down. The trainer simply doesn't want to scare the buyer away.

                                    Bottom line- if the kid thinks this particular horse can do the job, than it being off the track should be irrelvent. If the kid asks " was it off the track?" and the trainer lies, this is a whole different story, but trainer keeping its mouth shut is no big deal, IMO.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Not that I agree with what is going on but it is really none of your business what this trainer says or does to sell a horse.

                                      It is her business and if she keeps up this kind of practice sooner or later she'll get what she deserves.

                                      If you disagree or don't like what is going on then find another job.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Is it your horse? Are you the agent? Are you buying it? If the answer is no to all of those questions, not to be rude, mind your own business. In no way are you in a position to say whether or not its suitable, overpriced, etc.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Daventry:
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I really don't see how the trainer is unethical at all?

                                          I assume the buyer rode and tried the horse out and that it went well or she would not be still considering him.
                                          It is unethical - the term "disclosure" comes into play here. Even if the buyer has not asked the right questions, the seller is holding important information back and they can be sued for disclosure.

                                          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Since I'm not a lawyer, I'm delighted to take your word for it. But IME, it's only actionable if there's something negative that the seller doesn't tell the prospective buyer. Being OTT is not a negative, especially if the girl and the horse apparently got along well. So what would the buyer be suing for? </span>

                                          As for the working student, I agree with mp's motto about never giving unsolicited advice. The working student can't be sure what was said on the phone to the buyer or in private, etc. and, as already stated, the buyer came out to see and try-out said horse and the ball is now in the court of the buyer.

                                          It would be nice to save everybody around the world from making mistakes but, unfortunately you can't, and it is Murphy's Law that it will most likely end up coming down on your head if you try! Rest assured, be prepared to lose your job if you decide to intervene. But really, do you want to be working under a trainer like that anyways? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          <span class="ev_code_GREEN">Sorry, but a trainer like what, exactly? We only have the OP's word that this trainer did not, in fact, disclose that the horse is off the track. She may have done. In fact, I'd be willing to bet she has, if she's been in business for any length of time. And since the prospective buyer has tried the horse, found it suitable for her purposes and is happy enough with it to still be interested, what exactly is unethical about the trainer's behaviour? I'm confused. </span>
                                          In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
                                          A life lived by example, done too soon.
                                          www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/

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