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Moral Dilemma: What Would You Do?

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  • #21
    I say the trainer is a sneaky rat fink--here's how I would handle it, even if it cost me my job. I'd take the trainer aside and very nicely mention that it would be nice to tell the buyer about the green OTTB stuff. If trainer gave me guff, I'd say you tell her or I will. If trainer got nasty and tried to fire me, I'd say THANK YOU, I don't want to work for a cheating liar anyhow, and I'd make sure to tell the buyer about the horse before I packed my stuff and left.

    Then I'd let the trainer worry about the story I am going to tell everyone when people ask why I don't work there any more. Bottom line (to me, at least) is that the trainer is doing something wrong and you aren't. When you keep your nose clean and do the right thing in life, good things come your way, even if it doesn't seem like it at the time. Life will come back to bite this "trainer" on the bottom, you can be sure of that.

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    • #22
      Moral direction should not be a luxury. I wouldn't work for someone whose style and standards I didn't respect. (Well, except for the fact I work in corporate America, but let's ignore that.)

      I might ask my employer what her thinking IS on this situation. Might be that her reply is like ESG's and her delivery puts your mind at ease. Could be you've got a lot to learn from the trainer and can develop greater understanding through his/her guidance. So, if I "took her aside" I'd ask rather than tell.

      My teacher/trainer has been around horses since she was 5 and "sees" things about them and about riders that I couldn't imagine knowing.

      But if you can't ask questions about how s/he makes her/his decisions then you're missing a lot of educational opportunities. And if you don't have confidence in this part of her business, how are you going to trust her with the rest of your life/career?
      *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=

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      • #23
        How do you know the trainer did not tell her horse was off the track. Maybe they had a phone conversation when you were not around? Really, I don't care if it is off the track or not as long as it meets the requirements I need. Whats the big deal, as somebody already mentioned most are off the track or have been trained to race. Does not mean that they can't do anything else, they are very smart and most OTTBS have amazed me with their intelligence and adaptability.

        The other thing is do you really know if this kid is serious. So many kids say that they are but, in my experience, not many come through on the deal. The serious kids IME usually show up with a parent, trainer, or horse friend, and usually set up another look shortly after the first. No need to get so worried over this right away.

        I still can't understand why it is such a big deal if the trainer said or didn't say that the horse raced. How did she ride the horse? Was she experienced enough to do a good job? If so than what's the big deal? If not and the situation was a bit scarey than I wouldn't sell the horse to her without meeting her trainer and her parents first to make sure that they were qualified to help her through training a green horse. Any updates or more info you can add, there are just too many questions left unanswered. Again you will never know the trainers side unless you ask. Might be a much different storey when you put both sides together.

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        • #24
          Although we have not got all the details, if the trainer has infact not disclosed all information, then there are some moral/ethical issues at hand.

          Again, I am not sure that if this horse has been nice so far, why would it not be ok for paces and drill team. The farm I ride for just acquired a horse off the track who is still fit for racing, but I got on him on Monday in our front ring which is along a busy road, and I had to use a crop and spurs to make the horse move. He's already been to one hunt and his last race was less than two months ago. Again, we don't know the details of your horse, but the horse could be just fine with what she wants to do with the horse. And for the buyers sake, I hope she has been completely honest about her riding ability. I assume she is going to do a vet check, and like others have suggested...just let it take its course if you want to keep your job. If you are that worried about the situation, drop some hints to the buyers.

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          • #25
            Well, if this it is indeed the way you're portraying it, Share, then you have some soul searching descisions to make! Yeah, how badly do you need that job????

            I'll tell ya what--I think this happens more than anybody knows! A girl I used to board with brought this horse into the barn--it was half dead, first of all. Nothing but skin and bones and she paid $3,000. for it!!!! I firmly believe that if she hadn't bought the horse it would have been dead within the week and it was from a "respectable" trainer.... She told this young girl (teenager) that she had done all kinds of events with it but if she did she certainly didn't feed it. The horse didn't have brakes or know the meaning of slowing down.... The horse obviously didn't know what to do with a jump and yet the trainer sold it to the girl as having jumping experience, then the horse developed a sore back (oh wonder of wonders) because it wasn't carrying itself properly plus it was dangerous when it jumped (dangled its legs or dove). I was afraid the kid would get killed, but they both survived....

            At any rate, you may not know all the story and you can't save the world. The way I look at it you can tell the girl and proably lose you job or you can not tell her and she'll have to learn the hard way.

            If she herself is working with a trainer she should be okay. I suppose there are people who just throw a horse in a pasture with other horses but if it's a boarding situation I'm fairly confident that will not happen. If the horse came off the track I'm sure it's worked closely with other horses, so I wouldn't worry about that. Yes, the horse may run away with her but if she's had any kind of experience she's learned how to handle runoffs--it took me a couple times but then I got smart and hope I've learned how to deal with that problem.

            I think bottom line is--if I liked my job I would just stay out of the sale. People find out for themselves very quickly what they've bought.... Then, they have to learn how to deal with it, just like many of us COTHers have had to do....

            Good luck wrestling with this dilemma....
            "Don't blame Hogg or the other teens. The adults are supposed to know better. If only we could find any." ~Tom Nichols, professor of national security affairs at the Naval War College~

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            • #26
              I absolutely agree with ESG and Nibbs and anyone else who thinks that the trainer is not at fault here.

              For one thing...why would the trainer say that he might run off in a large group if she doesn't know that to be the case? That's just silly - you could say that ANY horse COULD do anything - afterall, all horses are unpredictable to a point.

              Also, the trainer was not lying when she said that she didn't know much about said horse's history as she has only had him for three weeks. I think it's very unfortunate that OTTB's get such a bad rap...which, if I was the seller, is exactly why that wouldn't be the first thing I told someone when they came to look at a horse I had for sale. I would most certainly disclose the information if asked or even if alluded to...but I completely disagree with telling someone everything bad your horse MIGHT do.

              I am assuming that this horse was advertised and unless the trainer outright lied in the ad and said that this horse was experienced, than the buyer should've known what level they were looking at.

              It is my pet peeve when buyers come to look at a horse that is advertised as green and needing miles (and priced accordingly) and than proceed to inform seller that they want to do the 3'6" hunters or training level eventing or whatever. IMO, if you want a horse you can go right into the ring with...than you need to spend more $$$!!!

              Edited to add...I don't understand why any inexperienced buyer would try to find a horse on their own? Employ a trainer...not just someone who knows about horses...but someone whose job it is to match a horse to a rider. Do people not do this b/c they don't want to pay a commission? I don't get it...it's much more costly to end up with a horse you are afraid of or just isn't suited to your goals for riding. I understand that not all trainers are honest...but there are some out there - do your homework, find a trainer with a good reputation, talk to people who have sold/bought through them and be honest with your expectations. That's a win/win situation!
              \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

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              • #27
                Assuming all the info the OP stated is accurate:

                The seller has been informed of what the buyer is looking for. She may not have specifically LIED or misrepresented the horse but she does know that she has no knowledge of the horse having the right skill-set for the job. Buyer said she wants a horse to be put to use right away. That would tend to eliminate a very green horse. A pro selling a teenager a green and questionable commodity to take to competition soon is (IMO) acting unethically. (I'm a HUGE OTTB fan and I tend to think that many a level headed right off the track.)
                The problem is that this horse has not been tested for anything. The seller saying "we dont know much about him..." might send up red flags to other pro's or seasoned vets but a teenager might not finish that sentence accurately.
                Look at it this way. If the girl said she was looking for a horse to do 2'9 hunters this spring and move her up to 3'0 by fall would you think it appropriate to present this horse as "pretty likely suitable" for her?
                F O.B
                Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

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                • #28
                  We only have one side here--the employee's story. First thing; the buyer probably knows alot more about this horse that you heard, as I'm sure there have been e-mails/phone calls you weren't present at.
                  Secondly; you don't seem happy with the price; price is set by seller. Seller needs to set a price that they will be able to hold--if the horse is already quiet enough to seem more experienced, then putting a higher price on the horse will allow the seller a) more negotiating room if it sells sooner and b) not to have to raise the price again quickly as the horse progresses/as seller has to keep and upkeep horse longer if it doesn't sell. Finally, even if the horse is "just off the track", it doesn't mean it hasn't had other experience--I've seen horses that were racing on the track, that had also been hacked out, and even shown and jumped. Different track horses have different backgrounds--I once bought an OTTB and in less than 2 months I was foxhunting him first field! And I had bought this horse right off the backside of the track where he was racing! I might add, that if I had an employee with this many concerns I'd want the employee to come and talk with me. I'd have no problem addressing the concerns. However, if I had an employee that thought so little of me that they had to post on an internet board I'd probably have a little discussion with said employee and let them go. That's just me, but I think that it would have been better for you to address your concerns directly to your employer.

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                  • #29
                    How do we know that the teen did not say that she realizes that this horse is green and that her eventual goal is to compete with the drill team? We don't so it is kind of hard to pass judgement on this trainer and quite unfair of us to do so. We just don't have enough info to give good advice here.


                    Great post x!!!! I agree.

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                    • #30
                      I would certainly hope that the potential buyer would check for a lip tattoo and start asking questions about the horses history. That would force everything out in the open.
                      *Ride and let ride...*

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                      • #31
                        Young buyers (and usually their parents) do not always know the right questions to ask a seller. This is unfortunate but true.
                        I LOVE my OTTB, but he has NEVER been in a herd situation (except as a foal at his dam's side) and views riding near another horse as competition. It's not his fault, it's how he was trained and he truly believes he's doing his job. He's a very nice horse, but I would never sell him to a greenie - even one with a few years under their belt.
                        I would find a way to spill the beans to the buyer or her parents privately and beg them for their confidence.
                        Everything could work out fine, but you don't know that for certain and I would feel exactly as you do.
                        Founding Member of "I Kept 'Off Topic Day!' Open"

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          If a seller cares about the horse and wants it to go to a good home, they will send it out on trial when the right buyer comes along.
                          Sorry to take this a bit OT but, I completely disagree with this statement. We NEVER, I repeat NEVER, let any of our horses or ponies go on trial and I do it for the reason that I really care about our horses!!

                          I can't control what barn you take him to. I can't be guaranteed with 110% certainty that the horse will be put outside in a private pen during the day, I don't know what your fencing is like or if you'll try something stupid with him over fences and possibly injure the horse or over face the horse. I can't be assured that the truck and trailer you pick him up with won't be in an accident, etc., etc.

                          I have heard horror story after horror story and I won't subject my horses to it. I realize there are some very conscientious buyers out there but, who wants to take the chance to find out in this day and age?

                          I always try and fully disclose the horse and get a real sense of what the rider is like. I always encourage try-outs...as many as they want and try and work with the buyer hand in hand. If a seller is completely honest about a horse, they will be able to find the right buyer.

                          Just because I don't let my horses and ponies go out on trial doesn't mean I don't care or am not trying to find the best home possible. Actually, we've turned down a lot of homes over the years as I didn't think it would be quite right, not good enough or just not the right match for the rider. Jeez, I still bawl every time one of them gets on the transport truck to go to their new home


                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          Daventry Farms
                          www.daventryfarms.com
                          www.DaventryEquestrian.com
                          Home of Welsh Cob stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
                          Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness
                          www.EquineAppraisers.com

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                          • #33
                            My motto about the horse world:

                            Never give unsolicited advice to anyone, unless disaster for horse or human is clearly imminent. The person you advise will resent it, especially if it turns out you're right.

                            My motto about working in the horse business or any other field:

                            If you feel you're working for an unethical person or company, find another job. You won't ever feel comfortable. And if they're truly unethical, you don't want to be tarred with the same brush.
                            __________________________
                            "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                            the best day in ten years,
                            you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by mp:
                              My motto about the horse world:

                              Never give unsolicited advice to anyone, unless disaster for horse or human is clearly imminent. The person you advise will resent it, especially if it turns out you're right.

                              My motto about working in the horse business or any other field:

                              If you feel you're working for an unethical person or company, find another job. You won't ever feel comfortable. And if they're truly unethical, you don't want to be tarred with the same brush.
                              Amen, well said.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I think the seller is being extremely unethical in knowling selling a horse into a situation for which the horse is unsuited and which very likely could end up badly. The seller definately should tell the buyer that the horse is recently off the track: while OTTBs can be great, they DO require some special handling.(Of course the buyers are at fault for not looking at the horses upper lip!) If it were me I'd talk to the seller, expain my concerns and be prepared to loose my job. If the seller does not agree to disclose, I'd resign, and talk to the buyers myself. Life is too short to work for unethical employers. Keeping you mouth shut makes you every bit as unethical as the seller.
                                As for "Never give unsolicited advice to anyone", I firmly believe in "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". If I were the buyer, I certainly hope someone would tell me about the horses history!

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                                • #36
                                  I really don't see how the trainer is unethical at all?

                                  I assume the buyer rode and tried the horse out and that it went well or she would not be still considering him.

                                  Also, how does the trainer know that the situation she is selling the horse into will not suit him? Just b/c he is an OTTB? Doesn't add up.
                                  \"Don\'t go throwing effort after foolishness\" >>>Spur, Man From Snowy River

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                                  • #37
                                    I agree with CZAR, how do we know that this horse is unsuited? Again, not enough info...

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I haven't read the other posts. But if I was in that situation I WOULD tell the teen. This sale has a possibility of turning very tragic very fast.

                                      I would feel horrible not disclosing what I knew and having this girl get seriously hurt.

                                      Is there someway to tell her anonomously(sp)?

                                      Doesn't say much about the seller either.
                                      MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
                                      http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

                                      Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

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                                      • #39
                                        I agree that nothing has been wrong thus far. Is this horse listed for sale and under registry listed under the "jockey club"?

                                        I'm with others that OTTBs can be so level-headed and that ANY HORSE CAN CAUSE INJURY. I have a young OTTB being used as a LESSON HORSE (gasp! ) teaching little girls to trot and canter. He's 10x calmer than my TB who is unraced.

                                        Is the OP maybe a bit biased against OTTBs?

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by olympicprincess:
                                          I agree that nothing has been wrong thus far. Is this horse listed for sale and under registry listed under the "jockey club"?

                                          I'm with others that OTTBs can be so level-headed and that ANY HORSE CAN CAUSE INJURY. I have a young OTTB being used as a LESSON HORSE (gasp! ) teaching little girls to trot and canter. He's 10x calmer than my TB who is unraced.

                                          Is the OP maybe a bit biased against OTTBs?
                                          But, I'm sure you tried him throughly before putting small children on him??

                                          And as the OP said, she changed the story to protect her identity, so possibly it is not even about OTTBs...
                                          MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
                                          http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

                                          Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

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