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CL - seriously?

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  • Alagirl
    I AM reading your posts. I just do not agree with you.
    And I do know personally that transport and slaughter is, at this time, inhumane. If it were not I would have no complaints about anybody who did that.
    And, By the way, I have no other screen names so no alters as you suggest.
    I have been on this board for ten years
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
      I think he's probably got an extra $100/year he could set aside from profits to pay for bullets and shovels over the course of a year.
      An Extra $100/year. I understand that you are picking that number out of thin air to make a point but let's analyse it for a moment.

      1. He would have to own a gun and pay for that licensing fee.
      2. He would have to buy his $100 of bullets. Ammo ain't cheap. But let's say, for $hits and giggles, he gets a captive bolt instead.
      3. He would have to buy/own a good chunk of land since he's starting a free horse landfill/composting business.
      4. He would have to pay taxes and maintain that land. In fact, if you are landfilling/composting on that scale, there may be other taxes and fees applicable.
      5. He would have to buy/own and maintain a backhoe (cuz a couple of shovels ain't gonna do it).
      6. He would have to pay for diesel for the backhoe, and that stuff ain't cheap either.

      In conclusion, he has killed more than 1 horse, and he has spent a heck of a lot more than $100. Furthermore, he has just pissed off a whole new demographic because he's mass murdering horses.
      Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans

      Comment


      • Ala, I say you're not reading because you keep putting arguments in my mouth that I'm not making and/or you're responding to things no one is actually saying. You rail on an on about me having a problem with people making a profit. Where on earth have I made that argument here or anywhere else. (Oddly you posit that I'm always making that argument which is downright bizarre?!) Frankly, it seems downright bizarre that you can derive that from any of my posts?! I can't tell if you're just throwing that out there to be obtuse because deep down you don't really have a rational/reasoned response for what I am saying- or because you truly don't understand, but it makes it impossible to meaningfully engage.
        ~Veronica
        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SmartAlex View Post
          An Extra $100/year. I understand that you are picking that number out of thin air to make a point but let's analyse it for a moment.

          1. He would have to own a gun and pay for that licensing fee.
          2. He would have to buy his $100 of bullets. Ammo ain't cheap. But let's say, for $hits and giggles, he gets a captive bolt instead.
          3. He would have to buy/own a good chunk of land since he's starting a free horse landfill/composting business.
          4. He would have to pay taxes and maintain that land. In fact, if you are landfilling/composting on that scale, there may be other taxes and fees applicable.
          5. He would have to buy/own and maintain a backhoe (cuz a couple of shovels ain't gonna do it).
          6. He would have to pay for diesel for the backhoe, and that stuff ain't cheap either.

          In conclusion, he has killed more than 1 horse, and he has spent a heck of a lot more than $100. Furthermore, he has just pissed off a whole new demographic because he's mass murdering horses.
          You're making 2 assumptions here that I am not: (1) that the flipper has to be the one to shoot horses and deal with the carcass; and (2) that the flipper has to take every horse offered which of course mean many unsound/unsuitable ones. I don't believe either is true.

          I think you're missing my argument a little bit. I am suggesting that he not take every free horse that someone will give him but only take horses that he thinks he can resell outside the slaughter chain. Of course, sh*t happens. We've all seen sound horses get hurts etc., so he's going to end up with some-- maybe a handful per year that have to be put down. But it'll be a small number to start with if he only takes one that have resale potential as opposed to taking every tom dick and harry's free horse.

          And then I was suggesting he donate to the hunt. Around here they'll shoot a horse for free and take it away to feed the hounds. But I was building in a little cost in case he was going to reimburse the hunt for the bullets. I wasn't building in the time/expense of him learning to shoot and bury horses. But even if you build that expense in, I think it's still a reasonable "overhead expense." For a business that starts with free raw material. If he can't make enough from flipping sound ones to cover the cost pf killing an occasional unsound one... maybe he's not good enough at this! Remember, he's filtering the horses on the way in so the number that have to be out down should be minimal.

          But I suspect the reality is that he makes a handsome profit at this. Even if only sells horses for cheapish prices as backyard/trail horses (say $1000-2000ish which is about what OTTBs can go for so I think a fair assumption) as long as he can flip them fairly quickly... there's a huge amount of profit. The way he seems to keep horses, he's spending minimal amounts on hay/grain/care. If he can get a free horse and flip it in a month for $2000.... he's probably put no more than a hundred or couple hundred bucks of care into the horse... plus his time... even so he's coming out way way ahead. He wouldn't do this if he wasn't reasonably good at it/able to turn a profit. If out of every 20 horses, one was a flub-- he'd still be way, way ahead.

          I am not sure John Q Public would be any more aware/outraged if he shot 2-3 horses/year and donated to the hunt as compared to sending 1-2 through low-end auctions every month. Half the people on this thread say the people donating horses don't give a fig anyway... I don't think most people KNOW. But I would venture that among education horsepeople, they would prefer what I am suggesting to the alternative. Anyway, I think discreetly having 2-3 horses/year shot and donated to the hunt is LESS visible and LESS public than having your name on the books every week or every month at the low-end auction.
          ~Veronica
          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

          Comment


          • I used to know Tim Daly, eons ago when I was in Middleburg. He was good friends with my SO at that time. Time is a VERY good trainer; he'd fit right in in the English countryside, that type. No nonsense, no flash, and an abrasive personality when his opinion is crossed. He helped salvage a very bad deal on a horse sold to a celebrity to be given to another celebrity. The horse had been badly misrepresented by a Middleburg 'flipper/trainer' who was held in fairly high esteem. Tim has to get the horse rideable and sound-ish for the gifting to the celebrity. Tough task.

            I guarantee if Tim gets a horse that doesn't pass the saleability criteria after some training, that it'll go through a sale. He probably doesn't have time or money to keep every lughead. But he always gave the good college try to salvage them. These aren't five figure type horses we're talking about.

            If he wrote that ad, then I can see why it was taken poorly. He's not a man with a way with words...just so you know, he and I did not see eye to eye, and our personalities clashed quite a bit. But that didn't make it less obvious to me he means well toward any horse, but is simply realistic about them.
            "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Proud member of the Wheat Loss Clique.

            Comment


            • My problem in this discussion is that everyone is making up stories about an individual that has been identified with NO FACTS.

              If the conversation was to be kept generic and about the status of handling unwanted horses - I would have no problem with hearing about everyone's opinions.

              I just think that dreaming up scenarios about a single individual and savaging his reputation based on NOTHING is WRONG.

              You have determined that this man contributes to the mean and cruel slaughter of horses based on the CL ad saying he doesn's want young horses or greys. Who knows why he doesnt want them, you don't. Some people hate chestnut mares and young horses have no training on them.

              Keep it generic - stop attacking this man.
              www.headsupspecialriders.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by skykingismybaby1 View Post
                My problem in this discussion is that everyone is making up stories about an individual that has been identified with NO FACTS.

                If the conversation was to be kept generic and about the status of handling unwanted horses - I would have no problem with hearing about everyone's opinions.

                I just think that dreaming up scenarios about a single individual and savaging his reputation based on NOTHING is WRONG.
                uh, you are gonna get the red finger for this!

                Don't you know that the mere hint of possibility of being a flipper of lowgrade horses makes you the devil incarnate?!

                Comment


                • I'm fine with the discussion being generic (and I have never mentioned this person's name or discussed any specific details aside from the general concept of being in NOVA in hunt country which is somewhat relevant to the discussion in a general sense--the realities of flipping and options for disposing of horses do vary geographically). I have a couple of times tried to steer discussion towards the general. I think that's probably more fruitful.

                  Threads like this remind me that the crazy lives (oh yes, it lives!)... and the ignore button is a delightful feature
                  ~Veronica
                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                  Comment


                  • Don't kid yourself.

                    I know who this person is and the individual has neither the $$s nor the space.

                    Open and shut ... it's a one-way ticket to New Holland.

                    Comment


                    • vxf, are you saying there are no horse flippers in No Va???? You must be blind....full of em.....and selling third party for OTHER flippers.....not every horse is showing "A", nor is every horse suitable for every type of rider (WHY do foxhunting riders that aren't any good think they MUST have a hot TB under their butts???)...but yeah, plenty of flippers there when I was...we were ONE of them
                      "As a rule we disbelieve all the facts and theories for which we have no use."- William James
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                      Proud member of the Wheat Loss Clique.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Yes-this is an alter View Post
                        Don't kid yourself.

                        I know who this person is and the individual has neither the $$s nor the space.

                        Open and shut ... it's a one-way ticket to New Holland.

                        So you are attacking someone with an alter???? Slimy move on your part.
                        www.headsupspecialriders.com

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                          You're making 2 assumptions here that I am not: (1) that the flipper has to be the one to shoot horses and deal with the carcass; and (2) that the flipper has to take every horse offered which of course mean many unsound/unsuitable ones. I don't believe either is true.

                          I think you're missing my argument a little bit. I am suggesting that he not take every free horse that someone will give him but only take horses that he thinks he can resell outside the slaughter chain. Of course, sh*t happens. We've all seen sound horses get hurts etc., so he's going to end up with some-- maybe a handful per year that have to be put down. But it'll be a small number to start with if he only takes one that have resale potential as opposed to taking every tom dick and harry's free horse.
                          Y assume that he is taking everything? I am sure his isn't a beginner filliper and I bet he has some eye. I could go the auction an pick out a few to filp and not have to worry about having to send them back. (been there done that)

                          New holland.. REALLY???? I could understand Marshall but up there he is in VA for goodness sake
                          Draumr Hesta Farm
                          "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
                          Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Melelio View Post
                            vxf, are you saying there are no horse flippers in No Va???? You must be blind....full of em.....and selling third party for OTHER flippers.....not every horse is showing "A", nor is every horse suitable for every type of rider (WHY do foxhunting riders that aren't any good think they MUST have a hot TB under their butts???)...but yeah, plenty of flippers there when I was...we were ONE of them
                            Did I post something that indicated I thought there were no horse flippers in VA?! If something I posted made you think I was saying so, wow I'm not coming through very clearly?!

                            I am sure there are plenty. I can think of at least one myself and I'm not from that area. That being said... How is that relevant?! This discussion isn't really about whether flipping occurs but the morality of it (and a side discussion of different ways the business might be structured).
                            ~Veronica
                            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Nootka View Post
                              Y assume that he is taking everything? I am sure his isn't a beginner filliper and I bet he has some eye. I could go the auction an pick out a few to filp and not have to worry about having to send them back. (been there done that)

                              New holland.. REALLY???? I could understand Marshall but up there he is in VA for goodness sake
                              I am not assuming he's taking everything?! That's what the people on the OTHER side of the argument are assuming (saying he'd be executing zillions of horses and turning into a horse cemetery) are saying. To the contrary, my assumption is that he takes a mix. Some he thinks he can resell, some he turns down, and some he takes knowing it's likely the auction for them but he'll flip and coin and see how it goes. And I am making this assumption about the flipping business in general and not this specific person. Someone with a good eye who is honest and doesn't want to filter horses to the kill market should be a little choosy and with some luck should end up with mostly make-up-and-resells and very few bullet-or-meatmans. That's what I'm saying. It's a fallacy on the OTHER side of the argument to assume a flipper MUST take every horse offered and therefore inevitably has hundreds of non-saleable horses.

                              I don't know what the low-end auction is called in VA, I'm not from there. In my area it's New Holland. Which I've mentioned not in relation to THIS SPECIFIC person but to the business of flipping in general. I have been trying to move the conversation to the general rather than to a discussion of this specific person.
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                You're making 2 assumptions here that I am not: (1) that the flipper has to be the one to shoot horses and deal with the carcass; and (2) that the flipper has to take every horse offered which of course mean many unsound/unsuitable ones. I don't believe either is true.

                                I think you're missing my argument a little bit. I am suggesting that he not take every free horse that someone will give him but only take horses that he thinks he can resell outside the slaughter chain. Of course, sh*t happens. We've all seen sound horses get hurts etc., so he's going to end up with some-- maybe a handful per year that have to be put down. But it'll be a small number to start with if he only takes one that have resale potential as opposed to taking every tom dick and harry's free horse.

                                And then I was suggesting he donate to the hunt. Around here they'll shoot a horse for free and take it away to feed the hounds. But I was building in a little cost in case he was going to reimburse the hunt for the bullets. I wasn't building in the time/expense of him learning to shoot and bury horses. But even if you build that expense in, I think it's still a reasonable "overhead expense." For a business that starts with free raw material. If he can't make enough from flipping sound ones to cover the cost pf killing an occasional unsound one... maybe he's not good enough at this! Remember, he's filtering the horses on the way in so the number that have to be out down should be minimal.

                                But I suspect the reality is that he makes a handsome profit at this. Even if only sells horses for cheapish prices as backyard/trail horses (say $1000-2000ish which is about what OTTBs can go for so I think a fair assumption) as long as he can flip them fairly quickly... there's a huge amount of profit. The way he seems to keep horses, he's spending minimal amounts on hay/grain/care. If he can get a free horse and flip it in a month for $2000.... he's probably put no more than a hundred or couple hundred bucks of care into the horse... plus his time... even so he's coming out way way ahead. He wouldn't do this if he wasn't reasonably good at it/able to turn a profit. If out of every 20 horses, one was a flub-- he'd still be way, way ahead.

                                I am not sure John Q Public would be any more aware/outraged if he shot 2-3 horses/year and donated to the hunt as compared to sending 1-2 through low-end auctions every month. Half the people on this thread say the people donating horses don't give a fig anyway... I don't think most people KNOW. But I would venture that among education horsepeople, they would prefer what I am suggesting to the alternative. Anyway, I think discreetly having 2-3 horses/year shot and donated to the hunt is LESS visible and LESS public than having your name on the books every week or every month at the low-end auction.
                                What hunts in the Phila area will take donations and shoot horses for you?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                                  What hunts in the Phila area will take donations and shoot horses for you?
                                  Hunts in the NOVA area, I was discussing the realities in that geographic area (which is the area where the subject of the initial post is located). I see that I have a typo of "here" and meant "there" which makes it ambigous. Sorry.
                                  ~Veronica
                                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                    I am not assuming he's taking everything?! That's what the people on the OTHER side of the argument are assuming (saying he'd be executing zillions of horses and turning into a horse cemetery) are saying.
                                    More than one mistake a year could easily become a problem. We've got three buried over the past 10 years, and we're beginning to run out of spots. You would seriously have to dedicate an area to it. Away from water contamination for both humans and livestock. Fenced off from pasture areas because graves sink and you don't want your good horses breaking legs in sunken graves of worthless horses. And, our friendly neighborhood excavator charges $75 per horse which DOES NOT cover his costs (he's seriously a nice guy and understands most people have already spent all their spare cash on trying to save their horse) so I'm projecting that actual real world backhoe costs on one horse are nearer $100. Plus land taxes on otherwise unuseable land. Plus cost of gun and ammunition. Plus what you fed the horse while you are trying to retrain it/get it sound.
                                    Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                      ... Someone with a good eye who is honest and doesn't want to filter horses to the kill market should be a little choosy and with some luck should end up with mostly make-up-and-resells and very few bullet-or-meatmans...
                                      Yes, this is it exactly... someone who doesn't want to take horses that will be going right to the meat man/slaughter house should definitely be a little choosey. But in this particular person's ad, he clearly states NO GREYS! Why would a *flipper* say that since most in the horse world know that grey IS a desirable color for resale since people like them therefore they sell better than some other colors. Reason for NO GREYS - the slaughter slope won't buy them from him!!!!

                                      Oh, and his ad also states NO SKINNY horses? Why would a flipper state that when there are probably plently of very good resale prospects that just need some weight put back on before turning a nice profit for him. But again, the slaughter market won't give him as much for a skinny horse as it will for a fat one! And he's certainly not going to spend a dime of his own money (probably gotten off the backs of those free horses that he sent directly to slaughter) to put some groceries into them.

                                      But you know what? If he were just honest about what he's doing I think as much as people might hate it, at least they would have the choice as to whether to give him their horse or not. Why do so many have such a problem with that concept?

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Claddagh View Post
                                        Yes, this is it exactly... someone who doesn't want to take horses that will be going right to the meat man/slaughter house should definitely be a little choosey. But in this particular person's ad, he clearly states NO GREYS! Why would a *flipper* say that since most in the horse world know that grey IS a desirable color for resale since people like them therefore they sell better than some other colors. Reason for NO GREYS - the slaughter slope won't buy them from him!!!!

                                        Oh, and his ad also states NO SKINNY horses? Why would a flipper state that when there are probably plently of very good resale prospects that just need some weight put back on before turning a nice profit for him. But again, the slaughter market won't give him as much for a skinny horse as it will for a fat one! And he's certainly not going to spend a dime of his own money (probably gotten off the backs of those free horses that he sent directly to slaughter) to put some groceries into them.

                                        But you know what? If he were just honest about what he's doing I think as much as people might hate it, at least they would have the choice as to whether to give him their horse or not. Why do so many have such a problem with that concept?
                                        He isn't the garbage collector.
                                        and who knows, he might simply not like greys.
                                        For personal reasons.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Alagirl View Post
                                          He isn't the garbage collector.
                                          and who knows, he might simply not like greys.
                                          For personal reasons.
                                          Oh come on - one minute you defend him as someone trying to make a living doing something that is *legal* (no matter how unethical or deceptive his practices are) and now you're saying that he doesn't want to make money by taking in horses that, as a horse seller he knows will sell well, simply because he doesn't personally like the color grey??? WTH

                                          Comment

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