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  • #21
    If they don't work out there is always Frying Pan (professional auction services) and Marshall (is it still running?). Along with many other sales.

    He is giving these ppl a way out if they need it. Is it pretty if it doesn't work out? It prob isn't sunshine and roses but it could be worse.
    Draumr Hesta Farm
    "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
    Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

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    • #22
      Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post
      Tim is not a kill buyer, nor is he a meat man. Tim is a trainer and dealer, previously a show jumper, and has run his business out of Stonegate He still has Silvio. The economy is bad, a lot of people are looking to rehome their horses, and I'd rather my horse go to someone like Tim (who has a lovely property) who has clients and a reputation for quality horses (despite, or perhaps because of, his colorful personality). I can name a dozen trash dealers in Virgina that don't get the negative press that Tim does because he's honest.
      Agreed with the above poster. Tim is my neighbor and while I don't necesarily agree with the plethora of livestock he has (goats, sheep, chickens, donkeys, turkeys) besides the horses since the "odd" critters make my horse more than a little bug eyed, he is not a meat man.

      Yes, I would call him a dealer, who does flip horses regularly. I don't see anything wrong with putting time, groceries and a chance at a new life, to horses that may end up in far worse conditions. He makes no pretenses at running a fancy, schmancy operation. He's a WYSIWYG kinda guy. He and his girlfriend also take wonderful care of the elderly lady whose farm they rent. I wouldn't be so quick to judge and cast aspersions on a person solely based on a CL ad.
      Lost in the Land of the Know It Alls

      Comment


      • #23
        Thank you for this information. I agree that it is not right to make judgements without any knowledge of the situation.

        If people are willing to give a horse up to an unknown situation then the judgement should be on them, not a flipper/trainer who gives a horse a chance to move on.
        www.headsupspecialriders.com

        Comment


        • #24
          Does he take lame ones? Do those get made up into fabulous sport horses and sold at frying pan?

          I agree with you that there's nothing dishonest about the ad per sae. But I won't agree that it's not a seedy business to go around collecting people's cast-off horses and flipping them when you know a large portion of them are going to end right in the slaughter stream. And I have to think that's his primary motivation and not secondary. If the FIRST thought is flip for resale, why "no grays" and why not at least some indication that the horses have to be sound?
          ~Veronica
          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
            Does he take lame ones? Do those get made up into fabulous sport horses and sold at frying pan?

            I agree with you that there's nothing dishonest about the ad per sae. But I won't agree that it's not a seedy business to go around collecting people's cast-off horses and flipping them when you know a large portion of them are going to end right in the slaughter stream. And I have to think that's his primary motivation and not secondary. If the FIRST thought is flip for resale, why "no grays" and why not at least some indication that the horses have to be sound?
            I absolutely agree with you! No *trainer* who works with and then flips a horse would *forget* to mention in his ad that any horse he takes has to be sound!

            But his ad DOES say that he doesn't want skinny ones (because he won't get much for them when he *flips* them to slaughter). And he DOES state "no grays" (because the slaughter buyers won't take them).

            His motives are pretty clearly stated! Just maybe not so clear to the less informed owner who, for whatever reason, can no longer keep their horse. (If they only knew! )

            Comment


            • #26
              It's great that he's not DIRECTLY the meatman and tries to flip some into decent homes. But the ad makes it pretty clear that the primary motivation is to just make money from free horses and if that's slaughter... or the chain on the way there, so be it. He's not alone in that. But I still think it's a pretty nasty business and ought to be really expressly stated (i.e. I will try to put work on and resell your horse but if I cannot I will take it to Now Holland within the month and it's possible your young/not too skinny/non gray will be bought for slaughter).
              ~Veronica
              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

              Comment


              • #27
                Why does he not specify sound and why no upper age limit.

                Not grey , not skinny but apparently OK if unsound and aged. er... ok.


                It's great that he's not DIRECTLY the meatman and tries to flip some into decent homes. But the ad makes it pretty clear that the primary motivation is to just make money from free horses and if that's slaughter... or the chain on the way there, so be it. He's not alone in that. But I still think it's a pretty nasty business and ought to be really expressly stated (i.e. I will try to put work on and resell your horse but if I cannot I will take it to Now Holland within the month and it's possible your young/not too skinny/non gray will be bought for slaughter).
                exactly

                Comment


                • #28
                  He might get way fewer emails to wade through and not be overwhelmed, if he clarified expressly what the plan is in his post. I am sure many idjots think he's a rescue based on his posting.
                  ~Veronica
                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Are we sure that the ad was placed by the guy that you guys are defending?

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by OneGrayPony View Post
                      Are we sure that the ad was placed by the guy that you guys are defending?
                      Yep.
                      That's his phone number on the ad.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        vxf111;6691369 Does he take lame ones? Do those get made up into fabulous sport horses and sold at frying pan? Why would he take lame horses if his primary goal is to resell? No one said any of them were turned into "fabulous sport horses sold at Frying Pan" We have a great view of his pastures from our house and I see no cripples hobbling around out there.

                        I agree with you that there's nothing dishonest about the ad per sae. But I won't agree that it's not a seedy business to go around collecting people's cast-off horses and flipping them when you know a large portion of them are going to end right in the slaughter stream. You DON'T know that a large portion of the horses he gets are going to end up in the slaughter stream. There are a lot of folks, in this economy, who desparately try to keep their horses past the point of admitting that they can no longer afford to feed them. Realistically, they should have admitted they couldn't afford horse up keep before the horses went poor. How do all those horses end up at Camelot? Do you think that a lot of the people that buy some of those skinny, very useable horses don't put feed and time into them and then sell them into homes who CAN afford to keep a horse? He rides through our property all the time on horses that I would probably want to trail ride or hunt myself. His teenaged daughter rides them as well.

                        And I have to think that's his primary motivation and not secondary. If the FIRST thought is flip for resale, why "no grays" and why not at least some indication that the horses have to be sound? If you knew his barn set up, you would understand why "no grays". They are a PITA to keep clean and personally, after having owned 3 grays, I don't want any more either. His only motivation is to get cheap or free horses, put time and groceries into them and sell them as useable citizens. Maybe he "should" have indicated soundness in his ad. Like I said, I don't see any cripples up there being fed like veal. Tim is definitely a wheeler dealer when it comes to horses and livestock but he is not the unscrupulous character you are making him out to be.
                        Lost in the Land of the Know It Alls

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Being the devil's advocate:

                          Not every older horse tottering around the field is unsalvageable. He could just be widening his net so he can go take a look. I wouldn't want to pass up an opportunity just because the current owner's farrier/trimmer is a hack or the horse needs a chiro.
                          Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans

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                          • #33
                            There's false and then there's misleading. Two different concepts.
                            ~Veronica
                            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Yea - I reread the thread and realized that.

                              Outfxed, there's casting aspersions and then there's "reality checking". I know a family that sounds a lot like Tim. Grew up with them. They primarily were cattle dealers but also were highly involved with the sale barns...in fact, they own one. They are some of the nicest, most honest people that you're ever likely to meet.

                              BUT...to them, a horse is a horse is a horse. A horse that doesn't work out? Gets sold, generally back into the auction stream. They pull horses out of it too - patch them up, use them for trail riding or what have you and then sell them.

                              They are very picky about what they take in. They don't want skinny horses because they are expensive to feed, and if you're gambling on a horse, a skinny one is a no go. They don't want young ones because they can't be ridden. They'll take older ones because the kids can (and often do) ride the cripples. However, they don't have an issue with grays because they know they sell well and for a higher price than some of the others.

                              All this to say - I don't think he's a bad guy if that's what he's doing - but let's call a spade a spade here and not pretend it's all fairytales and unicorns.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Not every older horse tottering around the field is unsalvageable. He could just be widening his net so he can go take a look. I wouldn't want to pass up an opportunity just because the current owner's farrier/trimmer is a hack or the horse needs a chiro.
                                Not worried about soundness but must not be grey or skinny.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Honestly, at least he's pretty up front.

                                  Having dealt repeatedly with the fallout from people promising "oh I'm going to give him a great home and keep him forever!" then having horses show up at New Holland or other bad places - I'm glad he's not making any false promises.

                                  Just had another couple horses this week. Old owner gave them to a nice young couple "looking for a couple trail horses" Saw one at NH this week, the other is at some sale barn in VA. When old owner called the "nice couple" she was told they were still there and doing "great"

                                  Nice.

                                  It's funny, I used to try to be objective about the slaughter market and stuff, but it seems like (around here anyway), horses end up there by and large through shady, dishonest people like the "nice couple" above. We find out about situations like this ALL the time. And from what the ad said, it's at least obvious that the guy is looking to trade/sell or take to auction. Do I like that? Not particularly, but I think it's better than all the asshat "sunshine and roses" liars out there that are duping people into reducing prices or even giving away nice horses with their happy stories of endless days of trail riding or needing a horse for their darling child (who they bring with them for added effect)
                                  "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

                                  My CANTER blog.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I am no fan of auctions or slaughter, but isn't it better for a horse to pass through the hands of an experienced person who put a little training/time into it and see if it's going to sell to a rider, than for a horse to go straight to auction? This guy is at least giving the horses a bit more of a chance to prove themselves.
                                    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                                    1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Crockpot View Post
                                      Not worried about soundness but must not be grey or skinny.
                                      Soundness can come and go, but trust me... they stay grey. Well, grey-ish. Mine has been doing a fair interpretation of a dun for about a month.

                                      As far as skinny... those cost a lot to rehab and flip. By the time the genral public realises their horse is skinny, you're in trouble.

                                      But those are just my devil's advocate points. "Fat, non-grey, soundness not important" does scream of "meat man" in this day and age. I'm not suprised bells and whistles and alarms are going off. Just trying to keep an open mind.
                                      Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Lots of people loathe dealers and flippers as much as meat buyers, so attempts at defending or explaining them is useless.

                                        According to many folks, every single person ever buying and selling horses needs to wuvs dem like family, fully vet any and all buyers with 20 page contracts and multiple site visits and accept any and all horses and care for them for life if nobody else wants the horse.

                                        IOW, make it impossible for them to own one too.

                                        FWIW...I did the same thing for over a decade. I bought, (from low end auctions) borrowed and took in free horses and ponies. I also bought from dealer and feed lots. If I could find a free or cheap horse with half a chance of being marketable, I took it if I had time.
                                        Ridden, trained, polished, conditioned...and sold it on to the first buyer with money in hand.
                                        I also often avoided greys...your job is 10x easier if a buyer comes out last minute and your sales horse isn't a walking manure stain. Or lumpy. Only took a grey IF it required very little to be marketable...and the only because so many buyers are complete suckers for colors.
                                        And guess what? I still won't take a grey. Lots are gorgeous! But I know my luck...and I;d buy the pretty grey horse and it would look like cottage cheese in a year. (and try removing greys from your shopping list when looking for a Andalusian or Lusitano, LOL, only breeds where greys are cheaper because there's so many)

                                        Dealers and flippers also often take on certain unsound horses. Why? So very many times the ones running through auctions or owned by the type of folks to hand a horse over for free to a stranger (not exactly the most caring owners in general) take craptastic care of the feet or non-serious limb injuries. I was always able to find plenty of "ruined" free horse that had 3 month old shoes on or an abcess or just needed a little time off or stall rest to be sound again. Lotta times a minor unsoundness is the reason people want to dump the horse.

                                        So yeah, cut up those who give lots of horses a second chance but aren't doing it with a song in their heart and a tear in their eye.

                                        Doesn't change the fact that these types of flippers and dealers SAVE a LOT more horses than most rescues ever do. And it doesn't mean they don't like horses. After a while of doing that job...if you were a big mush you'd burn out damned fast and hate all humans too. If you didn't like or love horses, you wouldn't do that job. But if you gave your heart to every single one, you'd end up in a looney bin. It HURTS seeing what morons, ignorant people and fools do to these animals. It hurts a lot less when you repurpose them and find them new homes. And yes, income comes into it. Only a complete idiot thinks anyone can do this long term or large scale and not require making an income. And most of the dealers and flippers have their own horses that they adore as much as anyone on this board loves their own. But deal with 25, 50, 100, 200 horses annually...you'll either burn out or learn to distance yourself a bit.

                                        (and yup, if I got in a horse that did turn out to be psycho...it went to auction. Deal with enough and affording or finding burial for euthanizing them isn't do-able. It stops you from acquiring 1, 2 or even 3 more. Sad for that one horse, but not for the others that were on the same route but good horses.)



                                        (the thumbs down icon is on the bottom right in case you're looking )
                                        You jump in the saddle,
                                        Hold onto the bridle!
                                        Jump in the line!
                                        ...Belefonte

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                                          Lots of people loathe dealers and flippers as much as meat buyers, so attempts at defending or explaining them is useless.

                                          According to many folks, every single person ever buying and selling horses needs to wuvs dem like family, fully vet any and all buyers with 20 page contracts and multiple site visits and accept any and all horses and care for them for life if nobody else wants the horse.
                                          I don't loathe flippers or resellers. I just think they owe it to John Q Public to be upfront about what they do. Notice what is omitted from the CL ad... the plan for these horses the poster is willing to collect. If he had a line in there indicating he was a flipper/dealer, I wouldn't have a problem. It's the omission that makes it a sleazy post, IMHO.

                                          And I am sorry, we all no what the "no gray" rule is for and it doesn't have to do with buyers seeing manure stains. Let's get real. Low end buyers that buy flipped horses of the type the poster is selling aren't expecting a braided A circuit horse to step out of the barn when they visit. It ain't about buying Quicksilver.... let's call a spade a spade if we're being real. Palaminos and horses with lots of high white/pintos get JUST as dirty and they're not on the poster's "no buy" list. So, let's not kid...
                                          ~Veronica
                                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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