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Leaser not releasing vet records to owner...help!

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  • Leaser not releasing vet records to owner...help!

    We had our pony leased out (free lease) for the past two years. It was under a regular lease contract, and the family leasing her took great care of the pony. I now have the pony back, and have had her for the past three months. I know they did some pretty intense injecting on the pony, which was fine by us. Now I am in need to see the vet records of what was done to the pony and when, so we can keep up with everything. Also she is supposed to go on trial, and the new people would love to see her records. We called the vet to get the records, and they had no problem emailing everything to us. Later that day, the vet called and said the family that had leased the pony would not release any vet records to us. The lease ended on "okay" terms. Nothing too dramatic happened, kids outgrew her and pony was just sitting without a job, so nothing crazy. It was the end of the said lease period anyway, and they were okay with ending it at the time. Does anyone know if I, as the owner, have any rights to her records. What would you do in this situation. We have sent several very nice emails to them asking for their cooperation, with no reply. Help!
    Last edited by ladybugsbw; Nov. 27, 2012, 11:00 PM.

  • #2
    I don't understand how the vet could say that the family wouldn't release them...the vet should have a copy of everything. And YOU'RE the owner, I would think there's legally no way in hell the leasing family would have rights that you don't have.....?

    Comment


    • #3
      Whoever pays owns the records. Kind of like when you get a PPE on a horse. If you pass on the horse, you are under no obligation to turn the results over to the owner of the horse.

      Perhaps offer to compensate them for the records? If it ended on good terms and they have nothing to hide, not sure why they wouldn't release them. But they are not required to.

      Anyone interested in leasing or buying should just pay for a PPE.

      Comment


      • #4
        I would expect the vet to have no legal liability to release them to you, the person that paid for them owns them. However, it's totally reasonable for you to see them and bizarre for the ex-leaser not to let you see them.

        Perhaps contact them and explain that you are fine with not getting the actual records but could they possibly give you a summary of any vet care they had needed to get so you could pass that onto the new lease? Maybe they think you are trying to check up on them or blame them for something?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dacasodivine View Post
          Whoever pays owns the records. Kind of like when you get a PPE on a horse. If you pass on the horse, you are under no obligation to turn the results over to the owner of the horse.

          Perhaps offer to compensate them for the records? If it ended on good terms and they have nothing to hide, not sure why they wouldn't release them. But they are not required to.

          Anyone interested in leasing or buying should just pay for a PPE.
          Ditto this.

          I leased a horse for DD to do children's hunters on. The horse became lame and I paid for vet #1 to come out to take a look. She injected him but it didn't help. Got very expensive vet #2 who is a lameness expert to take a look. He recognized the horse and told us that the horse had sustained a major injury a few years before and should never have been jumping. I was pissed and ended the lease. A few weeks later the owner calls and wants me to release the vet's findings and xrays to her. I did let her have them but more for the sake of the horse then for her.

          So yes whoever pays for the vet owns the records and can withhold them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Just call the leaser and explain why you want the records.

            Comment


            • #7
              And, if you lease the pony again, your lease contract should stipulate consent to the vet records.

              Comment


              • #8
                Call me paranoid, but I would be wondering what the lease family is hiding.

                If they were just doing maintenance that they had approved by you, there is nothing for them to gain by refusing to release the records.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Is your pony a mare by any chance? unapproved breeding?
                  pace, path, balance, impulsion and ??

                  Don't panic! Ralph Leroy Hill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    With people records (you know, where HIPAA applies), patients can specify which information they authorize to release. It can be all the treatments between two dates, it can be all the treatment surrounding a certain condition, it can be all the treatment by a certain department, etc.

                    So if they are balky and you don't want to know what they could possibly be hiding nearly as much as you want to know the injection stuff, maybe you can draw up a release of information that specifies "treatment related to joint injections", or what have you.

                    Also, depending on how far away that vet is... can you just call them out for injections and say "just do what you did last time"? And then you have your own records. And they didn't disclose it to you. They just followed the same treatment recommendation THEY probably made in the first place!

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Thank you so much for all of the responses! They took great care of her, and were great leasers over all. This is just odd. I have sent two very nice emails explaining why I would like them, or even that I would be happy just knowing the injection schedule. No reply in a few days. I have called once and still no answer. I really hate to think the worst of it, but I do wonder if something is trying to be hidden. I am not sure what, but it does give me an uneasy feeling. I totally understand not disclosing records on findings in PPE situations or issues like Dare1 had. I just feel like if it is routine visits that they did they would have no problem releasing the dates of those to us... sticky situation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Wow and good luck. Just get a good PPE type exam on the horse and do injections as needed. You may not need the records if you have a good trainer and vet to watch for injection needs. And honestly, it sounds like you were an absentee and hands off owner of a leased horse so just move on and pay your vet to get the horse a full exam if you are worried. You may not have been as chumsey with the leasing family as you may have thought and probably no ongoing communications on the health of the horse. Get leg X-rays too if you haven't already. Best of luck and learn from your experiences.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Maybe they're a little gunshy because they think if you get the records, you'll accuse them of breaking the pony and being dishonest about it? That you'll find something in the records they didn't disclose and get upset?
                          ~Veronica
                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                            Maybe they're a little gunshy because they think if you get the records, you'll accuse them of breaking the pony and being dishonest about it? That you'll find something in the records they didn't disclose and get upset?
                            But by not releasing the record, Op will think that they broke the pony, are being dishonest and will be upset soon!
                            ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                            Originally posted by LauraKY
                            I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                            HORSING mobile training app

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                              But by not releasing the record, Op will think that they broke the pony, are being dishonest and will be upset soon!
                              This.

                              Is this a high dollar pony? One who still possibly has years of use left? Are there any red flags?

                              IF it were me, and IF I answered yes to two out of those three questions, I would seriously consider contacting an attorney and drafting something about wanting records by X date or risk being sued for them (and legal fees).
                              COTH's official mini-donk enabler

                              "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                                But by not releasing the record, Op will think that they broke the pony, are being dishonest and will be upset soon!
                                Yes, but there's a huge difference between "OP will think x and will be upset" and "OP has records, on the basis of which she accuses us of x". If for some reason these people are worried about what's in those records, OP's upsetness at being kept in the dark is a far smaller risk than potentially giving her upsetting records. It's not like those people have an ongoing relationship with OP or are friends, so there's really nothing to ruin.

                                Of course that supposes there is something in the records that's upsetting. There might not be anything at all, maybe they're just upset about how OP handled it (going directly to vet instead of asking them first), or maybe they feel that if OP needs those records, she should have paid a part of the bills (which I gather wasn't in the contract, but then neither was giving OP access to vet records).
                                Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Do you know the emails are getting there? Things do get lost in cyber space. People frequently stop checking one email account or another. All kinds of reasons.
                                  Why not call up the people who leased your pony and explain all you would really like is the injection history so you can properly continue these injections.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                                    But by not releasing the record, Op will think that they broke the pony, are being dishonest and will be upset soon!
                                    I'm not saying it's a GOOD line of though... but that might be their line of thought. Without the records, the OP is just guessing. With the records, she KNOWS.

                                    Conateen also has a good point that maybe the former lessors are just annoyed because THEY paid for the records/vet charges and now OP wants them for free. And there was never an agreement to share for free, so now they're annoyed that the OP's come back asking for something she never had a right to anyway.
                                    ~Veronica
                                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      It's also soon after a holiday weekend, they might have been out of town or entertaining guests and thought the records could wait.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I guess I haven't leased for several several years, I just didn't realize that's the way things worked...I mean it makes sense, whoever paid gets to keep. I was just under the impression that whoever owns the horse ultimately gets rights, records, whatever. The last time I leased, that's the way the owner worked, made me think that everything was hers, no matter what. Now I know.

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