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Who pays for new run-in?: Update at #51

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  • #21
    Why should the BO pay? Rather than spend a good chunk of money, she could just kick you out and not get a new boarder's horse that doesn't hog the run in. She is agreeing to make modifications to her farm to accommodate YOUR horse's bullying behavior. At absolute minimum you should be paying 1/2. It is not unreasonable of her to ask you to pay the whole thing.
    .

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    • #22
      Wow, you guys are tough!

      The BO should pay because the additional run in will allow her to earn more money going forward, for years to come. The BO could well have other boarders that hog the run in too, so it is a good idea to have "guaranteed" run-in space for each horse.

      It costs me approx. a year's worth of board for one horse to pay back the cost of the run-in. But then every year after I get the board income from that horse. It makes perfect sense for me to add the run-in if I'm OK with expanding.

      On the other hand, the BO could just figure this is more trouble than it is worth, or decide she doesn't want more horses down the years, and so just go back to the original arrangement.

      I don't think emotions need to run high on this issue -- it is a simple cost/benefit analysis the BO needs to do. And no, the horse owner cannot force her to get the run-in; it's totally up to the BO.

      I divide my run-ins, and have one bay per horse. Many of the horses share, but this way the low man on the totem pole is guaranteed a spot.
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      • #23
        The situation is maybe different if you have a large farm where boarding is the owner's business, versus what appears to be the case here where a small private owner has gone from boarding one horse to two horses.

        The amount of board for the area is probably relevant too.

        In theory, it would be the BO's expense... but if it was me, I would probably regretfully say you needed to take your horse elsewhere rather than front a few thousand dollars to build an extra shed right here right now on the hope that maybe after several years of you boarding with me the shed would be paid for.

        So it comes down to you deciding what your finances allow and what your other options happen to be going forward. You mention that you're concerned that your horse won't be there long enough to get full advantage of the money sunk into the shed. Likely the BO has every reason to feel the same, eh?

        So it's not really about "what's fair" as much as, what can each of you live with? Either option and anything in between can be construed as fair depending upon the details. Try your best to have an arms-length negotiation and see if you can work something out that you can both live with, and if there isn't, maybe that's just the way of the world rather than her fault or yours.
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        • #24
          From a business standpoint, how can you justify building a run in for one horse, when odds are you could replace that horse with one that doesn't bully the others out of the run in. ROI sucks.

          Thankfully, I have one boarder and he's always gotten along with my other (now just one) horses. I do believe (if I were your BO) I'd ask you, nicely, to take a hike if you expected me to build a run in for your horse...and it is for your horse. Your BO wouldn't need it if your horse didn't bully the others out of the run in. Maybe a stall board situation would better suit your horse in the long run.

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          • #25
            I haven't read all of the posts, but keep in mind... horses often will rather stand outside in the pouring rain, rather than use a 2nd shed in a different area-- the whole herd mentality. So, it may be pointless to build a different shed, unless there is fencing that will segregate the horses. (I hope this makes sense it is 1:30 AM)

            That being said, I think it would be the BO's responsibility.
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            • #26
              I have a question for those saying the BO should pay for the new shed. What happens when the BO just says, no I'm not spending $$$$$. Sorry, you need to leave. Would you be annoyed, or would you understand that the BO is making the best business decision in interest of not losing money on someone else's horse?
              .

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              • #27
                I don't think it's really reasonable to expect horses to all get along and share what sounds like a small shed. If 2 horses and a pony fit with one standing partially under the overhang, that's about the size of a stall. I've had horses for nearly 20 years. Two horses might get along and share but I've never had 3 that would share a small run in.

                BO may have just been lucky the last time in finding horses that all go along well enough to share.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
                  I have a question for those saying the BO should pay for the new shed. What happens when the BO just says, no I'm not spending $$$$$. Sorry, you need to leave. Would you be annoyed, or would you understand that the BO is making the best business decision in interest of not losing money on someone else's horse?
                  I realize you are probably directing this question to the boarders who are saying it is the BO's decision. However, as a BO who's saying it -- it really doesn't matter if the horse owner "understands" or is annoyed. BO's cannot be in the business of pleasing people -- well, strike that, of course they have to please their boarders and give good service -- I mean, they have to take the best decision for themselves and their barn, and if the horse owner they are asking to leave gets annoyed -- oh well. In deciding to ask a boarder to leave, whether they would be annoyed or not would not factor into the decision at all.

                  I've only asked one boarder to leave and that was because she was not following her veterinarian's advice to treat her horse's Cushings.
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                  • #29
                    Since it's a small barn and you get along well with the BO, I'm sure the two of you will come to an agreement that works best. Hubbie's horse is Dirty Harry in a shed. He can hold off an entire herd all on his own, and still find time to eat in the bargain. So, when the hay goes out or the weather is bad, he comes in. Keeps the peace in the neighborhood. Perhaps exploring a similar option will prevent anyone from having to shell out for a new shed. Good luck with your horse.
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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by dacasodivine View Post
                      I don't think it's really reasonable to expect horses to all get along and share what sounds like a small shed. If 2 horses and a pony fit with one standing partially under the overhang, that's about the size of a stall. I've had horses for nearly 20 years. Two horses might get along and share but I've never had 3 that would share a small run in.

                      BO may have just been lucky the last time in finding horses that all go along well enough to share.
                      Most of the time when you board at a facility you decide what's reasonable before you get there or you ask if your needs can be accommodated in advance.

                      I might tell my barn owner that the fencing needs repair, or that there's a problem in the barn -- for example, putting down pea gravel and scraping out mud to improve the footing that had deteriorated. That's their responsibility to fix.

                      I have never asked for them to build me a run in shed .

                      I am a small business owner. If I had a client who asked me to invest in software -- or another expense -- to manage part of their account, I'd have to look long and hard at the expense to decide whether I'd make enough money from their business to justify the expense. There have been times when I thought it made enough sense for my business to make the investment; other times where it was exclusive to their needs and I asked them to pay for it.
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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Bogie View Post
                        Most of the time when you board at a facility you decide what's reasonable before you get there or you ask if your needs can be accommodated in advance.

                        I might tell my barn owner that the fencing needs repair, or that there's a problem in the barn -- for example, putting down pea gravel and scraping out mud to improve the footing that had deteriorated. That's their responsibility to fix.

                        I have never asked for them to build me a run in shed .

                        I am a small business owner. If I had a client who asked me to invest in software -- or another expense -- to manage part of their account, I'd have to look long and hard at the expense to decide whether I'd make enough money from their business to justify the expense. There have been times when I thought it made enough sense for my business to make the investment; other times where it was exclusive to their needs and I asked them to pay for it.
                        I would hope if you were offering board to outside horses, there would be a shelter large enough for all horses. It really sounds like a very small shelter, too small for 2 horses and a pony to fully fit.

                        I think of it kind of like hay. You don't put out one round bale because one might not be allowed to eat. You don't put out 3 piles of hay for 3 horses.

                        While I don't think there "must" be 2 shelters, it should be big enough for all to comfortably get in it. I would also suggest there not be a small opening either. Too easy to guard.

                        If the shelter were large enough, dividing it should work. I'm still waiting for OP to come back and explain why that didn't work. If it's not as small as it sounds, we might be able to come up with a way of making the existing shelter work.

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                        • #32
                          I haven't read the other thread, so I don't know the specifics of the run in and where it's placed. You said it is already divided and that solution didn't work.

                          What if you put a "pasture within a pasture" so that your horses part of the run in was separated and fenced off from the other part? Essentially, your horse would have his private run in and pasture, and the other two horses would share a run in and pasture. If you did a sturdy type of fencing that is cost effective, that may give you a solution without the added expense of another run in. It could also be used in the future for horses that need individual turnout.
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                          • #33
                            Um, I don't think anyone's addressed the aspect of how powerful herd politics are, and that no matter how many run-ins are built, the dominant horse will take one and the lesser ones may just hang around outside it. I've had my horses at home for 20 years now and have three overhangs big enough for 3-4 horses each, and there's always seems to be some knucklehead standing outside in the rain, even if he has another option (I've never had more than 5 horses at one time). I even have an idiot QH that has HIS OWN run-in at night, but will stand outside in the rain. Just sayin', just building it won't make them use it.
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                            • #34
                              I have both the bully and the "outcast". My experience is even if you build another run-in, no matter who pays, the "outcast" will still stand with the others, even if it's outside of the shed.

                              Could you modify the existing run-in with an extended roof? Making a carport type cover that would provide shelter. Even if it extends on the side of the run-in. Safety first of course

                              That might be much less than an entire new run-in that they may not use anyway.

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                              • #35
                                What about just adding on to the current run-in to make it bigger? And cheaper, I would think. Don't need to tear down any current walls, just add 2 walls (backside and one side) and roof. Or just a roof with posts so there is an overhead type shelter at least... and that would force a separation as well.

                                ETA: Similar to what BellaLuna just posted.

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                                • #36
                                  haha downen, we must have the same herd! Was writing when you posted, same thoughts as you.

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                                  • #37
                                    We do not live in a perfect world, with perfect horses who never put a foot out of place. If the BO is choosing to board horses, they should be accepting of this, no?

                                    Sure, she could kick this horse out... but what if the replacement does the same thing? We cannot control every aspect of our horses, especially when they are turned out to pasture.

                                    I would expect the BO to pay because it realistically a) sounds like the run in is not large enough for three horses that aren't joined-at-the-hip-best-friends, and b) it is an enhancement to their property.

                                    I would expect a board increase... for all boarders, not just the owner of the bully. The property is being improved and that costs money. The run in wouldn't be ONLY for my horse, it would be for the accommodation of all horses using the pasture in the present or future.

                                    I would not expect the increase to be huge for one extra run in. Less than $50 more a month, certainly.

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by BellaLuna View Post
                                      I have both the bully and the "outcast". My experience is even if you build another run-in, no matter who pays, the "outcast" will still stand with the others, even if it's outside of the shed.
                                      Yes, the herd stays together, so the run-ins need to be next to each other/very close. It does not help to have one run-in at one end of the field and another at the other end.

                                      If the run-ins are divided the bully cannot hog all of the run-ins in my experience, only the section he's in.
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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        OP again ...

                                        You folks have really given me food for thought! Thanks for all the insights, experiences and perspectives. A few assumptions seem to be going around the thread, so to clarify:

                                        --My horse is the bully, and it’s a recent development. He’s accommodating to the other two horses in the pasture; it’s just the run-in that makes him a bully.

                                        --BO is not running her pasture as a business. It’s out of her family’s home and our board covers basically hay and water plus whatever other physical upkeep is needed; we provide grain, wormers, and the rest. I assume she keeps a portion as payment/profit for herself.

                                        --I believe the existing run-in was built when the family had two ponies, before they took in boarders. It is not really large enough for the current herd (two full-sizers and a pony). However, three horses did share it last winter, with one hanging out under the overhang.

                                        --I didn’t ask the BO for a new run-in; she offered.

                                        --The BO loves my horse and has never mentioned kicking him out. Moving him was my idea.

                                        I talked to the BO yesterday regarding a very modest (likely permanent) monthly surcharge on behalf of a new run-in. But I’m also going to share the experiences of you folks who added a shed and the horses’ behavior didn’t change, etc. Maybe there is an alternative to a completely new run-in.

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                                        • #40
                                          From a cost perspective, we just got a quote for the whole package (metal and wood) for a 12x18 shed for around $2,200. Just the materials, we have to build.

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