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Opinions on Buying Needed

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  • #1

    Opinions on Buying Needed

    I hate to do this under my "real" name, instead of an alter, but what the hell.

    I am in the process of buying my next horse. And at the end of this month, I've got to make a decision and I'm not sure what I want to do -- so I'd like some input from horse people.

    Background: Heart horse died in June. Want something that I can show in several events at breed shows as well as take to the local and B level shows and do *maybe* some 3' classes if it works out.

    I show paints, so I want something APHA registered. I'm also 5'8'', so I want something that's bigger. I've already got a 14.3hh horse; I've got a decent budget, so I want to make sure that I get what I want.

    Have been leasing a horse for the last two months. Horse is 5 -- did fairly well as a futurity horse, but hasn't done anything spectacular since he was sold as a 3 year old.

    I've shown him twice, and we keep improving. Really like the horse. Like pretty much everything about him. Think he could really work for me. I'm also one that doesn't like to trade horses around, and I could see myself with this one for a long time.

    Problem is -- the owner has him overpriced IMHO.

    She wants to get out of him what she paid for him. As a business person, I get that. But as a buyer, the horse has done very little in the last two years and honestly has probably done more in the last 60 days than in the last 24 months.

    Also, might be worth noting, he was injured earlier in the year. Still experiences weakness in the leg. We've had it floroscoped -- no chips or anything major, but we're still uncertain if it is something that is permanently damaged or if it's a strength issue that just hasn't been resolved yet (again, have only had him for two months).

    I've been keeping in constant communication with my trainer; she's had her eye out for others all summer, but we haven't found anything else that would fit the bill that wasn't just stupid priced. (The one I have is at the very tip top of my budget. The few we've seen and liked are 10-20K more than I'm looking to spend).

    So -- that said, my options as I see it now are as follows and I'm just not sure what the best route to take is. What would YOU do?

    A) Owner has offered a six month extension on the lease. Pros: Could see if he works out of the weak leg. Could continue showing to see if he improves further as we develop a partnership. Cons: Purchase price would still be the same at the end of the lease or I'll have invested six months of training and board into something I walk away from.

    B) Do a full vet check to examine horse. Adjust offer accordingly. My trainer is concerned that if I buy the horse and something is wrong where it doesn't ever work out of the weakness, if I (god forbid) get into a bind and need to sell -- she won't be able to sell the horse. Pros: Have a solid answer on the weak leg, which is our major point of concern at this point. Cons: The full work up is in the neighborhood of $1-2K and the seller is pretty set on price. Not sure she'd compromise either way.

    C) Offer cash and if it's not accepted, walk away.

    I really like the horse. Trainer likes the horse. I feel like I could do some really great things with the horse if I had more time to develop together.

    Overall, I told my trainer -- I'm not afraid to lose a little money on the horse. I want something I like. If I overpay by a little, I'm okay with that. The problem is just that the seller is stuck on getting out what she put in. For number examples, say she wants 50. I want to give 35, but would be okay meeting halfway if that would get the deal done. I've already put money into this horse in the way of injections to improve the bad leg, training, etc. I don't want to throw bad money after good anymore, but it sucks because I do really like the horse.

    What would you do in this situation? FWIW, I can afford the horse -- it's the upper end of my budget, but it can be done. I just don't think he's worth it *at this point*. Maybe down the road with more training and after being back in the show ring for a while.
    Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    If it were me I would pass on this horse because of the leg issue since it's been two months in your care with vet exams and he is still having weakness.

    I also, personally, won't buy a horse that I feel is overpriced from a seller that won't budge at all. If you are really set on this horse then offer her cash at the price you honestly feel he is worth and see what she says. Just remember you are potentially purchasing an already broken horse that may or may not improve in time with the extra vet bills necessary to try and fix his problem.
    My blog: Crackerdog Farm

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    • #3
      I would do the lease with the purchase price agreed on (so it doesn't go up), and keep looking in the meantime. Make sure hte lease is worded such that you can get out of it if you find something else you like.

      It is hard for me to think he is overpriced if you aren't able to find anything else comparable for less. Sounds like supply is less than demand for what you want.

      I am going through the same thing up here; I want a decent sized lesson horse, and can't find them for my budget...but as the supply is less than the demand they ARE going to be more expensive than what I think is reasonible.
      Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

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      • #4
        I'd walk away from the horse because of the leg issue and his age. He is young and if said leg doesn't get better you will have a retired 7 year old n your hands and that's no fun. Also if owner won't budge at all on price and i feel it's over priced, if horse was amazing and 100% sound I may would do it, but knowing the horse has an issue I'd walk away.
        Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

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        • #5
          I would walk away from a 5 year old that is NQR or has a soundness issue, at ANY price range. Clear radiographs prove NOTHING. Without a diagnosis you cannot assume that it is just weakness or some other minor thing. I would NOT invest more time and money in a vetting or a lease, it is the seller's responsibility to diagnose the problem and rehab/strengthen the horse and prove its soundness prior to expecting to sell it for actual money. I don't know what your price range is, but surely you can find a SOUND horse.

          If you find a horse that is right for you and your finances are in order, then I wouldn't worry too much about slightly overpaying in order to buy a particular horse. But I cannot over-emphasize the importance of being very particular about soundness in a 5 year old. The value of a 5 year old gelding who sold for $50K last year who is now NQR by my estimate would be closer to $0 than $35K. Maybe the horse will be fine with some time and be worth $50K again (or maybe less due to time not spent training or competing) but until then the horse would have a very low value.

          While it is heartbreaking to walk away from a horse that you really want, it's a LOT less heartbreaking than buying it and ending up with a permanently NQR pasture ornament.

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by Arelle View Post
            A) Owner has offered a six month extension on the lease. Pros: Could see if he works out of the weak leg. Could continue showing to see if he improves further as we develop a partnership. Cons: Purchase price would still be the same at the end of the lease or I'll have invested six months of training and board into something I walk away from.

            Could you suggest to owner that you'll take the extension, figure stuff out, and if you DO purchase, count those last 6 months towards purchase price? You're still out if you walk away, but if you buy, at least you'll already have a chunk of the price handled.

            B) Pros: Have a solid answer on the weak leg, which is our major point of concern at this point.

            My question is, why hasn't the owner already got a solid answer? I just recently sold a horse. He was sound, but if there had been a mystery problem, I would make sure it was taken care or, or at least accessed, before I tried to sell. I would think that should be owner's responsibility and investment, not yours.
            Personally, IF you got the leg issue figured out, and IF it's fixable, I would go for it. You sound like you know what you want, and he sounds like what you've been looking for. I sure as heck wouldn't buy on a risk, though...what if you're stuck with a really expensive unsound pasture puff?

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            • #7
              Personally, I'd be hesitant to start another 6 month lease on the horse and I definitely wouldn't offer cash without figuring out the leg issue first. Tell her you are interested in the horse, have the horse vetted and see what is going on with the leg (and anything else that may or may not come up) and adjust offer (or walk away) accordingly.

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              • #8
                I wouldn't even extend the lease that you have now. Horse is NQR and you could spend alot more money figuring out what is wrong with him. BTDT

                Comment

                • #9
                  Walk away. There are lots of nice horses out there. And with a 35K budget you should be able to find something that's sound. There are no guarantees when you buy a horse, but if you try to justify going ahead with the purchase when you have questions now about his soundness..well, you'll really be mad at yourself if he turns out to be lame and unsellable.

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                  • #10
                    Walk on.

                    You do NOT want a NQR. PLENTY of horses out there who are SOUND.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Walk on.

                      You do NOT want a NQR. PLENTY of horses out there who are SOUND.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        I can't believe the horse's owner is expecting someone to shell out what sounds like some serious $$$ on a horse whose NQR/weakness the owner can't even be arsed to properly work up...but then again you're considering doing just that, I guess.
                        Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

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                        • Original Poster
                          #13
                          Originally posted by Coanteen View Post
                          I can't believe the horse's owner is expecting someone to shell out what sounds like some serious $$$ on a horse whose NQR/weakness the owner can't even be arsed to properly work up...but then again you're considering doing just that, I guess.
                          Well, there's no need to be snarky. I am *asking* for opinions. Jesus.

                          My problem is that I don't make a habit of purchasing horses that are in this price range. So I don't know what is customary and what is not. If it is acceptable to request the seller "fix" this, I will certainly take that option. When we entered this lease, we weren't aware there was an issue - its not a lameness, per se, its just a weakness in the leg we haven't been able to push past.

                          I've been looking for horses for quite some time. I've come across only two I've tried (this one included). I'm trying to find something very specific, so I'm a little more "free" with my money than I would be on something that's more readily available. I'm willing to spend a little extra here and there because perfect is hard to find.

                          I will talk to my trainer about getting the owner to do a full exam. We'll see where she stands. I definitely agree we need that before I do anything. *Sigh*
                          Veni vidi vici. With a paint pony, nonetheless.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            First issue... Since you are not hampered by budget, you do NOT have to and should NOT compromise. And I strongly urge against purchasing any horse that you feel is overpriced. This is a huge commitment and something you should feel comfortable with.
                            So I think your best options are either to walk away or to make an offer that you ARE comfortable with contingent on a CLEAN vetting. Meaning, if the seller accepts your offer and horse vets clean you pay x amount. If the horse doesn't vet clean, you walk away or start negotiating down from x amount. Still a gamble, but at least you're not putting training into a horse that isn't yours (benefitting the seller by extending the lease) and you're not vetting the horse prior to agreeing on a price you are OK with.
                            Given your (example) budget? Me? I would walk away. You can get a great, sound horse for that price. Or less.
                            I have no issue spending that type of money on a horse as long as you get a fair deal, or better. I'm just not reading that this is a good deal for you at the moment.
                            Hope it works out for the best.
                            Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              I don't care if the vetting comes back 100% "clean," if I'm feeling something "weak" or NQR when I'm actually riding that's a deal breaker for me. It would be very easy for a subtle soundness issue to not show up on even a very thorough veterinary exam. So in this case, I would not buy the horse unless the problem or weakness resolved 100% AND the horse had a clean vetting.

                              Arelle, don't be insulted. We are on your side here! I have to admit I'm also somewhat shocked that a seller would expect to get a price in the five-figure range for a five year old horse that is NQR. That is definitely not industry standard. Overlooking a little bit of NQR would be considered more acceptable in, for example, a 15 year old packer with a known diagnosis of a manageable condition (such as a little arthritis), who is already doing the job they are being purchased for and is also selling at a discounted price due to age and the issue (whatever it is). That's a totally different situation. But a 5 year old? No way.

                              Comment

                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Arelle View Post
                                Well, there's no need to be snarky. I am *asking* for opinions. Jesus.

                                My problem is that I don't make a habit of purchasing horses that are in this price range. So I don't know what is customary and what is not. If it is acceptable to request the seller "fix" this, I will certainly take that option. When we entered this lease, we weren't aware there was an issue - its not a lameness, per se, its just a weakness in the leg we haven't been able to push past.

                                I've been looking for horses for quite some time. I've come across only two I've tried (this one included). I'm trying to find something very specific, so I'm a little more "free" with my money than I would be on something that's more readily available. I'm willing to spend a little extra here and there because perfect is hard to find.

                                I will talk to my trainer about getting the owner to do a full exam. We'll see where she stands. I definitely agree we need that before I do anything. *Sigh*
                                OP you sound like you are set on this horse.

                                I have never had the wherewithal to spend the amount you have available to you and it just seems like a mistake to settle on a horse with an existing problem that doesn't even put him in the same ballpark as perfect. I admit I am a little envious of the freedom of choice you have with that budget. I have never been able to purchase something that cost more than 3000.00. I have had to learn to be very picky so that I get the most for my money and if I had your kind of money I would really pass on this horse.

                                I wish you the best of luck with your horse shopping and I hope that everything works out in your best interest. I mean that sincerely in case it didn't come across that way.
                                My blog: Crackerdog Farm

                                Comment

                                • #17
                                  Just trying to help, don't know exactly what your looking for but this guy seems nice

                                  http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse...rse_id=1805396
                                  Or this one
                                  http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...?v=QVVs7sAsh6Q
                                  Or
                                  http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse...rse_id=1802721

                                  Did I mention i love looking at horses lol
                                  Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                  Comment

                                  • #18
                                    Paints over 15 hands are a dime a dozen. I braid for one of the bigger trainers out here and am professionally friendly with another Paint BNT as well as a H/J trainer who likes tje spotted ones. I would be happy to get you their contact info for sales horses if you like.

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                                    • #19
                                      My opinion, the horse is NQR, the seller is demanding and not very accommodating, the horse is overpriced, why not walk off?
                                      You already have too many red flags that came up, that is why you are asking.
                                      Some sellers are a bit strange and they really are not worth your time.
                                      I would not spend any more time on that horse.
                                      There are other horses out there, maybe better keep looking.

                                      Comment

                                      • #20
                                        Have you had a heart to heart with the owner of the horse? Have you spoken about the horse's limitations, where you'd like to take the horse and what you want to pay? If you haven't done that, start there. Perhaps the owner is not quite as firm on price as you think, especially since you have a history with the horse and the owner presumably likes you.

                                        If, after that conversation, the owner is still firm and you still have reservations about the horse's soundness, I would walk. There are a lot of horses out there. If your gut is telling you no, LISTEN.

                                        I would NOT dump a couple grand into a thorough pre-purchase without understanding EXACTLY where the owner stands on the price. Why waste the money if she's 100% firm no matter what, and you don't want to pony up that dough?

                                        Comment

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