Natural Horsemanship vs Traditional Training

[twofatponies]

Is this how you perceive the training methods used for "natural horsemanship", that the horses are chased around in circles "for hours", to tire them out, and THAT'S how progress is made? That the idea is to make the horses so tired that they submit? Do you feel that this is done in a manner differently than traditional lunging? *Do you feel the same way about traditional lunging? *
.

I think your last question is pretty interesting. Bad or unskilled trainers do the same useless or counterproductive things no matter what style of training they pretend to apply, no?

stink's comment about BHS qualified people is another interesting point - I think perhaps one of the biggest weirdnesses with NH is that it has been marketed as a "do it yourself" technique. Which means lots of people with no talent or foundation for horse training will try to style themselves as trainers, and the marketed items will try to oversimplify and generalize techniques.

The best horse people I know either grew up in families of horse trainers or went through rigourous European schools. Some of them are still better trainers than others, but all of them can read a horse and have a huge base of knowledge for analyzing and problem and fixing it.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

Is this how you perceive the training methods used for "natural horsemanship", that the horses are chased around in circles "for hours", to tire them out, and THAT'S how progress is made? That the idea is to make the horses so tired that they submit? Do you feel that this is done in a manner differently than traditional lunging? Do you feel the same way about traditional lunging? .

Not for hours, no. But I find the insistence on round-penning from NH folks pretty off-putting. I don't like traditional lunging either, let me hasten to add. I think it's asking for joint problems to make a horse run around in little circles. On ground that gets harder and harder packed.

Although I know plenty of people who lunge to tire their horses (which seems kind of counter-productive to me) before riding, most of the NH people I know round-pen as a technique for either a) flooding the horse with frightening stimuli in an effort to de-sensitize it; or b) free-lunging to teach the horse to respond to voice commands. Since I don't believe in flooding (horses are curious enough that it seems useless to me) and I don't use voice commands for the gaits, I don't see the point. But I find a lot of NH people harp on round-penning to the point of being tiresome.

[saultgirl]

I think your last question is pretty interesting. Bad or unskilled trainers do the same useless or counterproductive things no matter what style of training they pretend to apply, no?

stink's comment about BHS qualified people is another interesting point - I think perhaps one of the biggest weirdnesses with NH is that it has been marketed as a "do it yourself" technique. Which means lots of people with no talent or foundation for horse training will try to style themselves as trainers, and the marketed items will try to oversimplify and generalize techniques.

The best horse people I know either grew up in families of horse trainers or went through rigourous European schools. Some of them are still better trainers than others, but all of them can read a horse and have a huge base of knowledge for analyzing and problem and fixing it.

By the way, what is BHS?

As far as your point about the "do-it-yourself" marketing, I personally find that a "do-it-yourself" attitude is not what is being encouraged. Rather, I find that the idea is "You may be doing something different from the people around you, and that is ok. You may be doing something differently than you were originally taught, and that is ok."

This is my interpretation.

I dunno, seems like we're supposed to be on the same team here, folks.... if no one is getting hurt (more than usual ) and everyone is enjoying their horses, why do people need to be so down on what others are doing? It's one thing to say "that's not for me"....

[Fancy That]

Commonality..

Having done both "styles" of riding and training...I prefer to just look at the commonality.

I think these apply to both styles or, all good horse training:

"Give the horse a good deal"
"Make the right way easy, the wrong way difficult"
"Horse respects handler/rider/trainer"
"Reward the right effort/try"

I think, no matter what style you ride or train - these philosophies hold true.

Good trainers, no matter which style or discipline, want what's best for the horse. A good trainer never intends to hurt or overly stress a horse. A good trainer wants a horse IN HARMONY, as a WILLING PARTNER. Whether that's reining, dressage, h/j, driving, eventing, etc.

Let's just look at what all the different methods of GOOD TRAINING have in common, versus the differences

[saultgirl]

Although I know plenty of people who lunge to tire their horses (which seems kind of counter-productive to me) before riding, most of the NH people I know round-pen as a technique for either a) flooding the horse with frightening stimuli in an effort to de-sensitize it; or b) free-lunging to teach the horse to respond to voice commands. Since I don't believe in flooding (horses are curious enough that it seems useless to me) and I don't use voice commands for the gaits, I don't see the point. But I find a lot of NH people harp on round-penning to the point of being tiresome.

Well, flooding and voice commands have nothing to do with the NH stuff I've learned... I would consider "flooding" to be a a really "anti-NH" practice, in fact, and most NH'rs move their horses with their bodies, and don't use voice commands at all! The people using voice commands are usually the traditional people who lunge.

I think we need to be careful about making judgements about what others are doing, when we don't know the theories, or even what they are attempting to do. From your description I would say you were not looking at NH people, and also that you don't have a good concept of what it is all about.

I had someone say to me "There was a lady at my barn who did Parelli. She just kept hitting her horse in the face all the time." !!! Do you really think that's the idea? Do you really think that's a Parelli problem?

Someone also said to me once - "You don't want to ride dressage, it's nothing but kicking and pulling. They crank their horses' face down into a frame and kick and whip until they have nowhere to go but up."

And other "Western pleasure horses are all trained by tying their heads way down so that they can't move." And when I was horse shopping? "Don't buy anything trained in Western Pleasure. Their hocks are all ruined."

Hmmmmm.... how interesting.

[findeight]

Far as lunging versus round pen?

IME about the same thing when done CORRECTLY and can be used to vent excess energy. Nothing wrong with working some edge off a goosey colt and getting their attention before trying to teach them anything.

For those that have been stabled or near or back in the barns when some NH practioners were preparing for an exhibition, you already know they are interchangeable with those folks regardless of what they say.

[saultgirl]

Having done both "styles" of riding and training...I prefer to just look at the commonality.

I think these apply to both styles or, all good horse training:

"Give the horse a good deal"
"Make the right way easy, the wrong way difficult"
"Horse respects handler/rider/trainer"
"Reward the right effort/try"

I think, no matter what style you ride or train - these philosophies hold true.

Good trainers, no matter which style or discipline, want what's best for the horse. A good trainer never intends to hurt or overly stress a horse. A good trainer wants a horse IN HARMONY, as a WILLING PARTNER. Whether that's reining, dressage, h/j, driving, eventing, etc.

Let's just look at what all the different methods of GOOD TRAINING have in common, versus the differences

This is kind of what I was getting at, but it seemed to really crash and burn, no? I was really hoping to find common ground, but everyone seems to want to jump at the extremes in different directions.

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

Well, flooding and voice commands have nothing to do with the NH stuff I've learned... I would consider "flooding" to be a a really "anti-NH" practice, in fact, and most NH'rs move their horses with their bodies, and don't use voice commands at all! The people using voice commands are usually the traditional people who lunge.

I think we need to be careful about making judgements about what others are doing, when we don't know the theories, or even what they are attempting to do. From your description I would say you were not looking at NH people, and also that you don't have a good concept of what it is all about.

I had someone say to me "There was a lady at my barn who did Parelli. She just kept hitting her horse in the face all the time." !!! Do you really think that's the idea? Do you really think that's a Parelli problem?
.

Oh, I know exactly what the NH folks are doing, because they can't resist explaining it to me every step of the way. And I have no idea what you'd call NH, but the people I've seen using flooding techniques with a round pen are Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli. All of whom market themselves as NH.

As for hitting horses in the face, yes, I've seen both PP and CA advocate flipping lead ropes into horses' faces. I can see where someone without much practical know-how might be encouraged to hit her horse in the face by these people.

And I don't feel I need to be careful about making judgments when I've been asked for my opinion.

[saultgirl]

Oh, I know exactly what the NH folks are doing, because they can't resist explaining it to me every step of the way. And I have no idea what you'd call NH, but the people I've seen using flooding techniques with a round pen are Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli. All of whom market themselves as NH.

I beleive you mentioned in an earlier post that you don't believe in "flooding" techniques, can you please explain what "flooding" means to you, and what the theory is?

What would one of the above-named trainers use a flooding technique for, and what kind of technique would you use in it's place?

[tkhawk]

This was a nice spoof. But I must say that horse is very well behaved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foH4eTovuZU

[pAin't_Misbehavin']

I beleive you mentioned in an earlier post that you don't believe in "flooding" techniques, can you please explain what "flooding" means to you, and what the theory is?

What would one of the above-named trainers use a flooding technique for, and what kind of technique would you use in it's place?

Flooding is a training technique in which an animal is forced into close proximity with a frightening stimulus from which it cannot escape until released. It is used to desensitize animals to stimuli that provoke a fearful reaction.

For example, suppose your horse is afraid of umbrellas, and you, horse, and umbrella go into the roundpen together. That's flooding - the horse is in close proximity to something he finds frightening, and he can't get away from it until someone lets him out of the round pen.

I think horses are curious enough that most of them don't require flooding to accomplish de-sensitization. If you just leave an umbrella in the pasture, or stand in the field holding one, eventually the horse will creep over, check it out, bite it, etc. Much less drama. But hard to sell DVDs with techniques like that.

[creseida]

The best trainers are the ones that are flexible and will try different techniques to work with the individual horse. The worst ones are the ones that try to fit the horse to their techniques.

I remember listening to Monty Roberts talking to folks about their horses. He would go on and on about "Join Up" and no matter what the person said their problem was, his solution was "Join Up". That discredited him in my mind right there. He had one tool in his box.

In my personal experience, the NH folks tend to be less flexible in their training techniques. They will keep pounding away using the same tool to teach a horse something, like loading on a trailer. If what they're doing isn't working, they still keep trying.

Horses are individuals. They won't all fit into a mold. If you're not willing to keep an open mind about training and different techniques, whether they are so-called traditional or so-called NH, then your tool box will be inadequate for the task.

[Beverley]

Flooding is a training technique in which an animal is forced into close proximity with a frightening stimulus from which it cannot escape until released. It is used to desensitize animals to stimuli that provoke a fearful reaction.

Here's a beef I have. Things that a whole lot of us anonymous but successful horsepeople have been doing for DECADES (if not millennia) gets given a spiffy new name and maybe some spiffy accessories to enhance the training experience and voila, suddenly it is a brand new training technique. BS, people! All it is is a new MARKETING technique. ALL of the things that Parelli, Roberts et all are making their millions on are NOTHING MORE than successful things they have seen good horsemen do over time. As a result, I have always been both amused and miffed that the whole 'natural horsemanship movement' is greeted as new solutions to old problems. Again, it's just packaging, these guys aren't geniuses they have just borrowed judiciously from other trainers- something that any succesful horseman can do if they are paying attention.

[MSP]

Good training has no label and would fall under "traditional", really NH has come to mean gimmicks and marketing "program" training. The issue most would have with professed NH trainers is that many are probably beginners that own a CD.

In general the techniques used by NH trainers are traditional methods given stupid irritating names (sorry I started thinking about Parelli).

Good training is being able to find what works best with each horse. I might try something on a horse that worked on another horse but if I found it didn't work I would try something different.

1. Horse will not stand to be fly sprayed.

2. Horse is difficult to catch.

3. Horse nips/bites.

4. Horse won't stand still to be mounted.

These items are things owners should teach their horses. Not what I would think of hiring a pro to deal with.

I have no idea what Parelli would do but I would:

1. just spray them and follow them around. I don't care if they hold still and eventually after getting sprayed 100 times they get used to it. If it bothers me I tell them to stand. (stand is something that has to be taught)

2. I think this has more to do with the person that is trying to do the catching. I have been told a horse is hard to catch and had no problem and visa versa. This is something I make part of a normal daily routine and before you know it all my horses come when called.

3. For an average horse I would ping them on the muzzle with my fingers. That worked great for a TB but then came the QH! I had to use positive reenforcement to calm my QH from biting. I tell her no then ask her to put her head down and relax and then she is rewarded.

4. Back to training the horse to stand! Ask for stand by saying "stand", if they move return them to the spot you asked them to stand in and say stand again. After a time reward them for standing. Practice the stand and gradually lengthen the time you make them stand.

So I don't know, would I be considered NH or traditional?

[TouchMeKnot]

Flooding is a training technique in which an animal is forced into close proximity with a frightening stimulus from which it cannot escape until released. It is used to desensitize animals to stimuli that provoke a fearful reaction.

For example, suppose your horse is afraid of umbrellas, and you, horse, and umbrella go into the roundpen together. That's flooding - the horse is in close proximity to something he finds frightening, and he can't get away from it until someone lets him out of the round pen.

I think horses are curious enough that most of them don't require flooding to accomplish de-sensitization. If you just leave an umbrella in the pasture, or stand in the field holding one, eventually the horse will creep over, check it out, bite it, etc. Much less drama. But hard to sell DVDs with techniques like that.

I've never heard of flooding until now, but want to comment on de-sensitization that is preached excessively. I have done de-sensitization techniques for my young halter colts at the farm. And I have found that the horse will investigate something left in his pasture or something I lead him up to. But just because he accepts an umbrella opening and closing near him when he's in his round pen at home or in his pasture doesn't mean he'll accept it at the show. When we get to the showgrounds, and he's away from home, and there is all that high energy of competitors warming up, and horses whinneying as they arrive in big trucks, flags flapping and people moving in every direction, the colts go on overload and mental meltdown, and the slightest thing can set them off UNLESS you've adjusted your de-sensitization work to include building trust in the handler. A horse accepting a scary object by himself in his pasture is not sufficient training.

I work to show my horses scary objects and do it gradually, but they have to learn to trust me and focus on me to work them past a scary object. This is something that gets lost in the translation of de-sensitization. If you never take your horses off their home grounds, you'll never know how much he will focus and trust you; and when there is a golf cart driving rapidly and closely up on one side of him, a baby stroller on the other, and a kid with a balloon walking directly toward his face, is he going to trust his instinct to flee away from these scary things or is he going focus on me and let me guide him safely through?

I see a lot of people that think, oh, I have a problem, let me do some more de-sensitizing; however, they've totally missed the component that the horse needs to build trust in you, not just overcome his fear of objects. As one trainer said, you'll never be able to expose the horse to everything at home that he will encounter at the show, so you need to work on building trust and focus. Some of that work takes place at home, and some of it takes place at the showgrounds. When we have a horse go on mental meltdown where he doesn't show well, we try to still stay at the showgrounds to teach him to calm down while being immersed in all the noise and activity of the showgrounds. I have one mare that it took forever to get her to stand tied to the trailer at the showgrounds. If someone rode up behind the trailer, she would PANIC and break the tie snap or her halter or both even though I could get her to stand tied to the trailer at home.

I've also learned from working with a couple of volatile, high-motor show horses that it isn't a good idea to put a high-energy horse in contact with a scary object without an escape route if the horse panics. You can get yourself hurt that way. My round pen is large and leaves me a lot of room that I can provide an escape route. It serves me well to give the horse a way to escape without going on top of me and gives me a more accurate indicator that the horse is accepting the object of his own will and the lesson is actually being learned.

[Fancy That]

Swedish NH spoof video....

This was a nice spoof. But I must say that horse is very well behaved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foH4eTovuZU

OMG, that was hilarious. I have nothing against NH, but just the stuff that guy was doing and the absolute NON-reaction of his horse......too funny!

The trumpet-playing, flag-waving while riding was cracking me up!

And I LOVE his horse! I want it Looks like an overgrown Morgan to me

[saultgirl]

Flooding is a training technique in which an animal is forced into close proximity with a frightening stimulus from which it cannot escape until released. It is used to desensitize animals to stimuli that provoke a fearful reaction.

For example, suppose your horse is afraid of umbrellas, and you, horse, and umbrella go into the roundpen together. That's flooding - the horse is in close proximity to something he finds frightening, and he can't get away from it until someone lets him out of the round pen.

I think horses are curious enough that most of them don't require flooding to accomplish de-sensitization. If you just leave an umbrella in the pasture, or stand in the field holding one, eventually the horse will creep over, check it out, bite it, etc. Much less drama. But hard to sell DVDs with techniques like that.

The reason I asked, is because I associate "flooding" with old-fashioned, cowboy-style "sacking out".... (i.e. I am going to waive this umbrella all around you even if you are doing backflips to try to get away) which causes a huge amount of anxiety and stress in an animal, and I would therefore consider this to be a less humane practice. Does it get the job done? Yes... if it doesn't cause trauma.

I have found that NH techniques in regards to desensitizing focus around "approach and retreat" methods, with one of the goals being to keep the horse in a good frame of mind throughout the process. I think of this as being very different from flooding. I would also consider this to be a more humane approach to desensitizing a horse to a particular object.

[Fancy That]

Approach & Retreat is the NH "technique"

The reason I asked, is because I associate "flooding" with old-fashioned, cowboy-style "sacking out".... (i.e. I am going to waive this umbrella all around you even if you are doing backflips to try to get away) which causes a huge amount of anxiety and stress in an animal, and I would therefore consider this to be a less humane practice. Does it get the job done? Yes... if it doesn't cause trauma.

I have found that NH techniques in regards to desensitizing focus around "approach and retreat" methods, with one of the goals being to keep the horse in a good frame of mind throughout the process. I think of this as being very different from flooding. I would also consider this to be a more humane approach to desensitizing a horse to a particular object.

========
Agree with Saulty

I've always associated the Approach/Retreat methodology with good horsemanship (I try not to use the term 'natural horsemanship') Not "flooding"

The moment BEFORE you feel the horse is going to move (ie - get so worried it will move), you retreat. This gives it confidence that what you are doing isn't going to hurt and is nothing to be worried about.

[Parelligirl82]

Hmmmmm.... how interesting.

How Interesting

[MassageLady]

I think perhaps one of the biggest weirdnesses with NH is that it has been marketed as a "do it yourself" technique. Which means lots of people with no talent or foundation for horse training will try to style themselves as trainers, and the marketed items will try to oversimplify and generalize techniques.

I agree, and then they like to tell everyone else how horribly they treat their horses.
IMO there is only good training and bad training. Any other label is just to sell a product, nothing more.