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Don't Look a Gift Horse in the Mouth

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  • #21
    I also see you only copied a portion of the post and seem to have missed the portion where I talk about how I wasn't informed of the horses behavior until this past Friday. That's just over three months of working a horse that apparently is potentially dangerous.
    September:
    I must say that Knight is the quietest horse at the barn, which still surprises me considering everything I’ve been told about him from when he was younger. He takes everything in stride, goes out on the trails around the barn alone and, other than getting a little snort-y and taking a side step or two, he hasn’t spooked at anything.
    October:
    It wasn't so much him doing well...I can't go into details, but it had more to do with the training and his ability to put up with it, than his ability to do the job handed to him.

    It's still not making much sense...but I'm sure it's not easy or fun to learn that plans made won't work either.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte

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    • #22
      All we need now is for the mom, the friend, the trainer, the potential buyer, and a couple of house guests to all come on here and post their sides of the story!
      I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

      Comment


      • #23
        This whole thing seems funky (trying to get it straight in my head)
        1. You accepted the gift of this horse (question: Did horse belong to this lady in the first place, or did she and your mom actually buy the horse from someone else for you?)
        2. Without telling you, your mom fronted 1/2 of the cost
        3. You work off board for this horse at former owners place (Was this part of thre contract? Could you have moved him initially).
        4. You want to sell horse.
        5. Lady comes out 3+ months after you've owned him and says horse has issues which prevent him from being a show prospect, therefore she does not think it is morally right or in horses best interest to sell him as a show prospect
        6. Lady suddenly starts enforcing stipulations, and changing them, on the sale, eg. first you must pay her $1500 of the purchase price, which then increases to $3000, which disregards the $1500 your mom paid.
        7. Now you are out of the work you put into board, the horse, and vet costs.

        I would give her the following options:
        1. You sell horse, with full disclosure & take the full purchase price
        2. She takes the horse back & you charge her for all the work you've put into board & the horse since August.

        Good luck. And yes, contract contract contract always always always no matter what every single time!!!!!!
        "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
        "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey

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        • #24
          Hey OP, I know you have received a lot of negative feedback but I wanted to let you know that I have been in a similar situation that broke my heart. Contracts are extremely important when you go into any out of the ordinary deal with someone, even if they are someone you trust. My situation worked itself out in the end for the better.
          Southern Cross Guest Ranch
          An All Inclusive Guest Ranch Vacation - Georgia

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          • #25
            If you have a Bill of Sale and the horse was indeed given to you free of charge, this should be pretty cut and dry. You could take the BoS to a lawyer, who would determine the horse is yours. You could then re-sell the horse with full disclosure as it sounds like you want to do, and be able to compensate yourself for your time in training him. The alternative is to let the lady who gave him to you deal with his re-sale and ask her for payment for training...which is probably 99.999% unlikely to happen. Whatever you decide, good luck..I know it's not an easy situation to be in.
            I saw the angel in the marble and I set him free. - Michaelangelo

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            • #26
              Originally posted by OveroHunter View Post
              Hey OP, I know you have received a lot of negative feedback but I wanted to let you know that I have been in a similar situation that broke my heart. Contracts are extremely important when you go into any out of the ordinary deal with someone, even if they are someone you trust. My situation worked itself out in the end for the better.
              Just wanted to say I hope I didn't sound too harsh in my post. It sucks to be in situations like yours, and you're definitely not the only person in the world whose ended up in one. Trust me, I have learned a lot of lessons the really hard way recently, and it sucks, but as my Dad said to me when I was having a pity party, it is the best way to learn!
              "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
              "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey

              Comment


              • #27
                Perhaps she keeps up with your blog, and got worried that you were going to misrepresent the horse to a ammy or jr. rider who wouldn't be able to handle his problem. You said a couple times that he's the quietest horse in the barn. That could very well come back to bite HER in the butt, esp. if the papers hadn't been transferred into your name yet. Sometimes it can take a while.

                I get why she is worried.

                Personally I think that you should just give the horse back. I'm not sure why he was gifted to you, if your intent from the beginning was to sell him. It sounds like you could be in a world of trouble by selling him on your own if he's dangerous. Give him back to the people who know him best, and can deal with his issues. You don't want to add to the situation.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Sempiternal View Post

                  From what I remember from the bill of sale (don't have in right in front of me at the moment) the horse along with all his tack, blankets, brushes, grooming cart etc were being sold to me. I believe the $3,000 sale price was on it, but can't be positive as I am going off of memory. And no it doesn't seem like I will be getting any of those misc items either.

                  I don't get this part either. You have a bill of sale for 3k but did not hand over any money?

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Gosh, this is hard.

                    The horse is in your name. Legally you could get an officer or deputy to be present when you remove the horse. You have proof of ownership and that's all that's required.

                    Of course, if your Mom did sign a contract and has not lived up to that contract IE, paying for the horse, then she could be sued by this person.

                    If the later is the case, giving the horse back is probably the best way to go.

                    Have you discussed this with your Mom? What does she say about it?

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                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      My mother thinks I should pay her friend the $3,000 and sell/move the horse or just give the horse back and be stuck with my lost time and bills.

                      Maybe I am being hard headed, but I don't think I should have to pay for something that was a gift to me. I have never given a gift with the expectation of receiving money back from the person I gave it to...it wouldn't be considered a gift then.

                      As far as the bill of sale/sales agreement...I was not there when it was made. The person who gifted me the horse was the one who paid the previous owner the $3,000.
                      The Sempiternal Horse

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by dacasodivine View Post
                        Gosh, this is hard.

                        The horse is in your name. Legally you could get an officer or deputy to be present when you remove the horse. You have proof of ownership and that's all that's required.

                        Of course, if your Mom did sign a contract and has not lived up to that contract IE, paying for the horse, then she could be sued by this person.

                        If the later is the case, giving the horse back is probably the best way to go.

                        Have you discussed this with your Mom? What does she say about it?
                        Yeah, that's how I understand the situation - OP apparently has the paperwork that names her the owner, free and clear. She can remove the horse any time she chooses, with law enforcement escort if required.

                        Her mom has some kind of contract with the friend, and might end up getting sued, but unless there's something in that contract that stipulates that the horse doesn't become OP's until mom pays, it doesn't impact ownership. Friend basically fronted/loaned mom half the price of the horse - the horse is now bought and belongs to OP, the loan needs to be repaid as per whatever the contract says but shouldn't impact current ownership (it shouldn't impact OP at all - the issue of the loan is between friend and mom).

                        The whole "or you can just pay me $3k now" I don't understand at all. There's something mighty funky going on on the friend's side.
                        Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

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                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Sempiternal View Post
                          My mother thinks I should pay her friend the $3,000 and sell/move the horse or just give the horse back and be stuck with my lost time and bills.

                          Maybe I am being hard headed, but I don't think I should have to pay for something that was a gift to me. I have never given a gift with the expectation of receiving money back from the person I gave it to...it wouldn't be considered a gift then.

                          As far as the bill of sale/sales agreement...I was not there when it was made. The person who gifted me the horse was the one who paid the previous owner the $3,000.
                          Ok seriously, this is stupid.

                          Do you have the paperwork that names you the owner, without any conditions (like "horse will not be sold until mom repays $1500" or something)? If you do, you can take the horse without paying her anything. She may be regretting the gift, but that's her problem, not yours.

                          If your mom wants to get into this decision, it's only fair she shows you what her contract states. You're operating in the dark without that information.

                          If you don't have ownership papers, well...then you still should see mom's contract. It sounds like at best you (your mom) would owe that lady $1500, unless your mom has been lying from the start and actually agreed to pay $3k and there was never a "gift".
                          Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            I do not have anything that says that I cannot sell horse until mom pays the balance, though the person who gifted the horse tried to have that added to a boarding contract that I was writing up for the two of us (would have gone into effect this month). I refused to put that in the contract since I knew nothing about it (until she told me to add it) and it was an agreement she made with my mother not me.

                            As far as the horses temperament, over the 3 months or so that I have been riding him (in the indoor and out in the hayfield) he has never given me indication that he was anything other than quiet. Sure if he hadn't been ridden for a few days and I took him out to the hayfield he was get more forward and gave me a couple crow hops when I first started riding him. I would not classify him as high strung, even though I was told that he was. That description didn't match the horse I was riding. Everything I put in my blog about his temperament was based on my personal experiences with him.

                            I used to own a high strung and nervous mare and this gelding is her total opposite.

                            Also, he had never tried to spin and bolt with me and again I had no previous knowledge of that behavior until this past Friday.
                            The Sempiternal Horse

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              You have to consider that this behavior might be a lie, or blown out of proportion. My horse had an incident with another horse coming close, spooked and ended up with the saddle under her belly which freaked her out. After that she would spook at horses trying to pass her, so my trainer worked at it and it was resolved.
                              It's quite possible this horse also had that issue and it's gone now, but the friend wants to take the gift back and is making it a bigger issue than is was/is. Did you ride the horse with other horses in the arena?

                              And she can say what she likes - as long as you have papers proving legal ownership, her only issue is with the loan with your mom. For which she can sue your mom, but can't take your horse. If indeed you have those papers, she's just blowing smoke and hoping you'll fold.

                              The only thing I don't understand is why your mom would even suggest paying the woman $3k. $1.5k if she owes that, ok (and it should be mom that pays, but well, that's between you guys). But $3k? Whose side is your mother on here?
                              Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Meh, you need to put the horse into a busy schooling ring to see the spin-n-bolt reaction. I had one like this, and he was made the same way: The same horse everywhere until a pony crashed into him in a schooling ring and then the busy schooling ring became a place where the rules for this horse magically changed.

                                FWIW, I don't think this kind of phobic horse is unrideable. If they are at all honest, they'll tell you wnen they are worried about traffic. But I don't think the habit gets 100% fixed very often. If the deal isn't entirely over, I think you'd need to try him in a schooling ring at a show before you could explain to a would-be buyer his version of this problem.

                                So, bottom line, does he BO now want to keep the horse forever? Is that what happened or her plan for him?
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Sempiternal View Post
                                  Well I no longer have a horse.

                                  For those of you who don't remember, I was given a horse as a gift for my birthday from my mother's friend. Her and I agreed that that I could keep him there in exchange for me working, riding her horses and helping out around the farm.

                                  I found given my timeline for my goals - not being able to show competitively until I have graduated (another 3-5 years depending) - that this horse would be ready to retire or go into an easier career within a couple years of me graduating. So I decided to find him a nice home with lower level aspirations and purchase myself a weanling or yearling.

                                  I had been told that I was allowed to sell or move this horse, he was a gift after all and in my name.

                                  However, a few weeks a ago (before I had decided to sell) I was told that I would owe the gifter/donor $1,500 and then this weekend, when I had someone scheduled to view him I was told I would owe her $3,000...

                                  Not only was I told that but I was also informed that this horse had started to display dangerous and possibly fatal (to rider and others in the area) behavior when in the ring with other horses that a professional trainer had not been able to fix. He would spin and bolt with no prior warning (if you didn't know what to look for). She also let me know this morning that she did not believe he would hold up mentally to a competitive career.

                                  I had originally been planning on showing him at unrecognized shows and possibly using him competitively when I graduated, before I decided he would be better off with someone else.

                                  She refuses to let him leave her property without me paying the $3,000 and knows that I do not own a trailer and that I do not have a lot of horse contacts in the area. Also, she knows I don't have the money to hire a lawyer (because she would lose if I took this to court - papers and bill of sale were all made out to me).

                                  So I am out a horse, vet bills, time for services provided in return for board and all the time I put into retraining this horse.

                                  The point of this post? Get a contract with EVERYTHING, especially an expensive gift.

                                  Also agreements with family and friends...AVOID.
                                  WOW. I think your mom needs to choose her friends more wisely! What a raw deal from someone claiming to be a friend of the family.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    OP, you need to find out exactly what the bill of sale says before you can move forward. It's not enough to just say "It doesn't say I can't sell him". If it is contingent on your mom paying the 1500 she agreed to and she hasn't then you don't own the horse yet regardless of registration papers and whatnot. If your mom has no intention of paying her half and you won't pay anything either then the only option is to walk away and chalk it up to a learning experience.
                                    My blog: Crackerdog Farm

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                                    • #38
                                      I think the spin/bolt bit is a lie to scare you into giving up the horse. If she was that worried about liability, she would never have given/sold him to you. And why would she want a horse like that back? Your riding has probably improved him and she possibly has a buyer or knows she can find a buyer for the now more valuable horse.

                                      If you are not worried about your Mom being sued, go with a deputy to retrieve your horse. If she won't turn the horse over to you, sue her just as if she were a barn owner keeping a horse you brought in.

                                      Or, if possible, make nice then when you are on the property, saddle up and ride off the property.

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