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Election Day is oming - do you know who you are voting for and WHY?

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  • Porcelain Pony, here is where the "Catch 22" comes in. Americans don't want those entry level jobs and won't work them. Hence it is necessary to import immigrants to do them. Then the Americans complain that they can't get a job because the immigrants are doing them. Ask any motel owner or farm owner. Americans don't even apply for those jobs.

    Oakleigh
    Oakleigh Sporthorses Sale Horses

    Comment


    • Porcelain Pony,
      Thank YOU for saying what nobody else will say. It is VERY true.

      One of my favorite authors is Ayn Rand. She is ultra conservative, but one of her messages is that we reimburse FAIRLY for work, and not take advantage of people. Now this doesn't mean a union system, but it also doesn't mean asking someone to give you 40 hours in exchange for something that doesn't come close to paying for life needs. It also doesn't mean the CEO pays himself $25 million per year while some of his employees may go hungry.

      I think we can blame poverty on the lady that had 3 kids, or the lazy cousin who milks unemployment, but our quest for cheap goods and services props up the situation Porcelin Pony has set forth.

      Now as for election, frankly, we haven't heard much from our candidates on this, but I will tell you one thing, this system sure as hell insures a steady flow of military recruits.
      The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

      Comment


      • Magnolia my friend your analogy is valid except that in my book that untalented lesson horse deserves and gets the same stalls if not better, has rubber matts and nice clean deep shavings and very good hay and grain. Because that Lesson horse pays my mortgage and my insurance and my utility bills. I love those horses. They are rare and special the school masters and they never complain or get rude.

        Now, that fancy 3'6" horse well by the time we give them all the extra attention to which their owner thinks they are entitled, by the time I waste my time checking explaining and serving with a smile that Boarder if I added all the extras as an ala carte I'd still only be making about $5.00 a day in net profit. For $5.00 a day I don't really want to waste my time on the phone with them unless I can charge them the way a lawyer does by the minute.

        But, it get's worse because that fancy jumper horse which earned all that money, well I'm supposed to be so grateful that are willing to keep this jewel here that they think I should pay them for the privilege.

        Our Constitution says the "pursuit" of happiness it doesn't guarantee you will always be happy. It is not an entitlement. If we believe in Capitalism that is "supply and demand" on the marketplace then our freedom gives us the right to succeed, to get to be rich and important EQUALLY with the right to fail and be taken care of by those who had the gift to succeed.

        Socialism is where there are no real rich and not real poor everything is equalized with social entitlements. What's the point of working hard at 3 jobs? The chance to get ahead of those who don't work at all. The argument is flawed because why work hard if the people who don;t work at all live just as well? Where is the incentive to succeed if all that success is paid back to support those who can't or won;t work.

        The one thing that Bill Clinton said right was "It's the economy stupid". Kerry is hiding his socialized plans for the economy by diverting everyone's attention away from what he stands for with the economy and getting everyone all stampeding against the war we face with suicidal bullies who get paid to kill us.

        He's cut from the same cloth as the Europeans who collaborated with Adolph Hitler because the piece if land he wanted wasn't theirs. They weren't jewish so who cared if a few jews and the gypsies too vanished and the Nazi claimed their assets. It wasn't their assets it wasn't their relatives. He promised them that the Germans would have all the money and power and they wanted to hear that and bought the story.

        It feels good to be a benefactor and have people dependent on you. It feels much better than teaching them to stand on their own two feet because there's no life preserver. Now, don;t get all hysterical I am not heartless.

        I come from a time when classrooms were not homgenized, it didn't take long to figure out 10% of the world was really bright and 10% were really slow at learning. I remember the teacher saying to us when you all were in line when brains were passed out you got more than your share and what you got was their share so you owe them big time. We were all required to tutor the ones who were slow to compensate for our gift. Something we hadn't earned and we couldn't take credit for was our brains.

        Everyone in between pretty soon figured where they stood in the curve and took vocational classes in high school because they knew college was not for them. In those days college was not just another four years for Mom and Dad to support you it was a place to learn a profession.

        Another interesting experiment at NYU where I was a psycjology major. They admitted a buch f students that were very low on the IQ scale aaabut they told the teachers these were exceptionally bright students if a little distracted it was from their genius level. It was amazing the first group was retested after two years in the program and they had gained in their IQ scores.

        My point is that the more you humor the people who seem so hopeless and the more you re-enforce their own low self esteem the less likely they are to succeed. Where is the motivation to succeed?

        So now we have a system recommended that discourages the top end from seeking success because they will gained nothing from the risk and extra enterprise and we discourage the low end from feeling they are capable of doing anything by enabling them to be "cared for" by making it comfortable and acceptable. That leaves the middle class to carry the whole burden. It collpases from the strain and Voila we have a perfect communism each person according to their need.

        I am so glad I am old. There was a painting commissioned by NYU for La Guardia Hall and I was instrumental in having it removed from the wall because what I thought was Russia (communism) was the USA and what I thought was the USA (capitalism)was totalitarian and poverty was Russia. My God! the man was right! After all these years Karl Marx was right capitalism cannot survive because mankind wants insurance and patronage.

        OK! Go at it! My fire resistent suit is on, my ears are plugged shut and my eyes can only see what pleases me.

        I will take George W with his attempt to save the world over a passport into socialism any day and any time I live.
        http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by silver:
          [Oakleigh if you can't afford that stuff you just have a bad business plan and _should_ go bankrupt. Drives me crazy that the government is shoring up a bunch of essentially failing businesses with its subsidies and tax breaks at MY expense and the business owners get all the benefit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Silver, did I EVER mention my own business in the posting? Why make this personal? My own business is very successful and my employees have been with me for up to 17 years. I seriously doubt they would stay if they weren't being compensated very well. I have sent my staff to college. I have rewarded their desire to improve their skills.

          Let's keep my personal businesses out of this discussion.

          Oakleigh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
          I wasn't making it personal, that was a general "you", a "one" if you will. My point remains.

          Comment


          • Oakleigh,

            I appreciate the fact that we will agree to disagree. But I wish you could offer some advice.

            What would you advise a 40 year old man, who just lost his $15 an hour job at the mill to do? Let's say he isn't an entrepreneur, but a hard worker, willing to work HARD. What line of work would you advise him to go into? How would you suggest he pay his bills if he needed to re-educate himself for the new career?
            The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Magnolia my friend your analogy is valid except that in my book that untalented lesson horse deserves and gets the same stalls if not better, has rubber matts and nice clean deep shavings and very good hay and grain. Because that Lesson horse pays my mortgange and my insurance and my utility bills. I love those horses. They are rare and special the school masters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Then why not treat the fry cook that makes the money that pays the bills for the CEO of Mc Donalds the same?
              The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

              Comment


              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by silver:
                I wasn't making it personal, that was a general "you", a "one" if you will. My point remains. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Silver, I might believe you had my name not preceeded "you". That's pretty personal. I'm done with this discussion.

                Oakleigh
                Oakleigh Sporthorses Sale Horses

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:
                  Porcelain Pony, here is where the "Catch 22" comes in. Americans don't want those entry level jobs and won't work them. Hence it is necessary to import immigrants to do them. Then the Americans complain that they can't get a job because the immigrants are doing them. Ask any motel owner or farm owner. Americans don't even apply for those jobs.

                  Oakleigh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  again I would recommend "Nickled and Dimed"

                  cleaning motel rooms was one of the jobs the author took in her research

                  and as noted by another poster earlier, the author ran up against the changing schedules of the shifts that she was given when trying to work two jobs
                  Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                  The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:
                    There are many "hidden" costs to having employees that are not being thought through. A $3 big mac would cost alot more than $4. The impact on small business would be immense.

                    Oakleigh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    But you know it isn't really that simple. I think there is some truth to that IF the minimum wage is raised in excess of adjusted income levels. Because if the minimum wage does not track the COLA levels, wages decline as a portion of operating expenses.

                    Any adjustment that impacts small business should be weighed carefully, because small businesses live on the cusp can be knocked out by minor changes. And any way you cut it, most Americans work for a small business. However, in the past, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth and portents of economic apocalypse have managed to be completely overstated (as have the potential benefits of raising the minimum wage).

                    But we do have a responsibility to make sure that the minimum wage at least somewhat closely tracks its adjusted value. I think it hasn't been raised in the longest period since established and consequently it has far less economic value (to worker AND employer) than it did 5 years ago.
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                    Comment


                    • Thank you, PP, that is eloquently said, and Oh, so true.

                      Oakleigh, do not talk down to me and assume that I don't know about the additional costs in the employment of a human being. We were talking about the raising of the minimum wage; that the built in "must pays" would also go up, albeit NOT significantly, is a given. Your arrogance about this is undermining your argument.
                      Laurie

                      Comment


                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
                        but I will tell you one thing, this system sure as hell insures a steady flow of military recruits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        And prisoners. I forget the exact numbers, but if you figure in our prison population, the USA has one of the highest unemployment rates in the world, and it keeps growing, and growing and growing....
                        On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                        Comment


                        • Well Magnolia my Mom worked her way across Europe from her home town of Uzhorod as a waitress and a house maid all the way to France. She saved enough money for a Steerage trip to Hoboken. She was born here but her father had been killed in an accident so her mother went home with the new baby.

                          When she arrived in Hoboken she had no money in her pocket and she didn't know how to read or speak english. She took a job in Childs Cafeteria making pancakes and she paid for her education and she went into business for herself because she wasn't employable. There were no jobs. I'm a depression baby and she was there when the banks gave people 10 cents on the dollar they had saved in that bank.

                          A 40 year old man has his life ahead of him, he is in his prime of life. My youngest child is that age and certainly able to shift gears and learn a new job. I'm 75 and I have taught myself the computer because it was something that needed to be learned to function in this new society. I made a career change at 45 from a Fine Arts painter and then stay at home Mom to running the barn in West Orange, at 50 we gambled and bought this farm. The Mortgage payment was $55,000 a year and my husband's GROSS salary was $50,000 a year. We had to take leap of faith.

                          I expect to make two more changes of career before I quit this world. I will write my story and then at 90 I should have time to restart my original career as a painter. People are limited by the limtations they put on themselves. That man get's no sympathy from me he should be happy for what he had and he can do it again if in another field.
                          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                          Comment


                          • I read somewhere that in the 60s you could work full time all summer at minimum wage and pay for a year at a UC school. Nowadays if you work full time all summer ($6/hr, 40 hours for 12 weeks) you won't even comver tuition for two quarters, never mind living expenses or books.

                            Snowbird, I appreciate the story of your mother but things are a lot different these days.

                            Comment




                            • I just can't accept that companies don't pay enough for their employees to eek out a living.

                              My dad had his own company with 4 partners - he owned a plumbing warehouse. He had maybe 10 employees, prodominantly in the "labor" category. They weren't skilled etc. But they all made a more than decent wage, got full healthcare, several weeks of paid vacation, a fat Christmas bonus that included gift certificates to the mall so they could save their bonuses and not have to spend it on gifts. He took excellent care of his employees and over the course of 20 years, not ONE quit.

                              Dad and his partners did not take a large salary and never did get rich. They made a good living, but also shared the wealth with the employees.

                              You just don't see that in too many cases. I worked for a company where the new CEO rolled up in a Mercedes, fired 20% of the company, than took a month trip to England. Among the let go, a 70 year old woman, a 50 year employee who made a whopping $12 an hour after 50 years. And she did a good job.

                              So, if these comapnies don't step up to the plate and start caring for their employees, we are going to continue to see an increasing burden on society, and we'd better have a way to deal with it.

                              Have you ever wondered why impoverished countries have so much violence? Because poor people tend to not have much to lose. I hope we never see that move into our pretty suburbs here.
                              The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horseless In Georgia:
                                ser42 - Oh, the less fortunate - what because they just aren't lucky enough to have money and a job that pays enough. I'm sorry, I don't believe in this less fortunate stuff. That is the soft democrat way of saying the rich should give money to the 'less fortunate'.
                                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                Yes, they aren't lucky enough. Sure, there are some bad apples who abuse the system, but I believe it is a community's and society's responsibility and obligation to take care of the less fortunate when times are rough. Not only does it help them out, but in the long run, as others have argued, it helps EVERYONE. For reasons already posted, and in my opinion, many of your arguments are short-sighted.

                                I guess I am a "soft democrat." Hmmmmm. Sits OK with me. I used to be a Republican. In fact, I will personally be affected by the over 200K tax increase that Kerry proposes. That's still OK with me. And, I grew up in a family in which the income was in the top 0.1% of the top 1% in the country. My family certainly has paid its share in taxes, so I feel the temporary angst of a significant amount of our money going to the government. But, we can afford it. I can only hope the president in office spends that money wisely, which this president has not.

                                Edited to add that contrary to what you may think from the previous paragraph, my father was a self-made man in respects that many of the Bush supporters on this BB would be proud of. Yes, opportunities in this country exist in ways that they don't in most others. Let's not forget, though, that things aren't cut and dry, black and white, etc. We can't make generalizations about certain populations, something which a lot of the Bush supporters seem to be doing. We need to be more tolerant in this society, and Bush certainly lacks tolerance. Another reason I won't vote for him.

                                Comment


                                • Magnolia look supply and demand. There is a job washing dishes and there are 100 people equally capable of doing the job therefore the pay is lower.

                                  There is a job as a cook but there are only 6 people who might fill that job so the cook gets paid more. Now the owner of the restaurant might not get paid at all and he gets to work 7 days a week and take all the risk.

                                  Since no body wants his job the boss doesn't get paid as much as the dish washer and the government take their piece of the income and he has to reinvest the rest of the income for the next weeks business. Now if there is a calamity or really bad weather he might not take in anything have to dump the food but the staff still gets paid.

                                  That's why on my desk I have a little desk sign that says "I'm so depressed no one wants my job".

                                  My other favorite boss's momento is When I'm Right No One remembers and When I'm Wrong No One forgets."
                                  http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:
                                    Porcelain Pony, here is where the "Catch 22" comes in. Americans don't want those entry level jobs and won't work them. Hence it is necessary to import immigrants to do them. Then the Americans complain that they can't get a job because the immigrants are doing them. Ask any motel owner or farm owner. Americans don't even apply for those jobs.

                                    Oakleigh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    BECAUSE THEY DON'T PAY ENOUGH!
                                    Laurie

                                    Comment


                                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Porcelain Pony:
                                      What amuses me is it doesn't seem as though anyone in this discussion has taken economics 101. The fact is, we NEED the poor and unemployed in a capitalist society for it to function. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      I like this response to the problems that we have in our economy. One of the biggest problems that has been affecting our economy for the past decade is the increasing amount of technology that is available in the U.S. We pride ourselves on the technology that is produced in the United States, but the ramifications are a lack in menial jobs that can now be performed by computers and machines.
                                      A lot of people are concerned with the "outsourcing" of jobs that is occuring in our country as a result of globalization. Manufacturing prices with in the United States has become so high that it is impossible to produce certain products within the U.S. and make a profit. Places such as China have taken a lot of business from American workers, but they have the technology to match ours. And they do work for beans, but in comparison to what they could be doing, not being employed by a U.S. company, they are making a pretty decent living.
                                      I believe that our economy is just moving with the times and evolving into the 21st century economy. I understand that we are in a period of jobless growth, but without a decrease in the price of manufacturing in the U.S., companies will not be able to afford production in the country. Increasing taxes on those with a salary over $200 could affect our economy. Many people who own small businesses pay taxes individually for their business. If taxes are raised on these people, a shock would definately be felt, and the unemployment would go up further.
                                      Think of your local economy and how much of it is made up of small business owners...
                                      Coruscant Stables

                                      Comment


                                      • BTW, in case anyone has confused my comments, I am actually against capitalism in it's pure form. When I mention that capitalism needs to poor and unemployed to function, I mean that as a critique of it. The idea that everybody in a capitalist society has the same opportunities as everyone else is ridiculous and goes against the very nature of the beast. It's just something that you social darwinists need to really think about, IMOP.
                                        On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                        Comment


                                        • Curiously enough Bush himself doesn't seem to share the opinion that people can take care of themselves. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ''It struck me as I was speaking to people in Bangor, Maine, that this president sees America as we think about a 10-year-old child," Card (Andrew Card, White House Chief of Staff) said....

                                          The comment underscored an argument put forth some by political pundits, such as MSNBC talk-show host Chris Matthews, that the Republican Party has cast itself as the ''daddy party."

                                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Article 1

                                          And no less an organization than Fox News has criticized the administration for running a "Nanny State"

                                          Article 2
                                          I didn't realise we had troops in over 120 countries at the moment!

                                          Comment

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