Election Day is oming - do you know who you are voting for and WHY?

[lauriep]

Holy geezus, so, now you want them to make less than $7.00 an hour AND pay more in taxes? Why not just take their first born child, too? Oh, wait, you DO want them to have fewer children. But don't forget, your candidate doesn't want to fund ANY sort of birth control...

[silver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horseless In Georgia:
If minimum wage is increased to say for arguements sake to $8.00/hr, the price for a Big Mac at Mcdonalds will have to be increased to cover the cost of the employees. I don't know how much a Big Mac is now but I will say $3.00 If minimum wage is increased, then the burger's price may be increased $4.00. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Horseless under the current system the companies are able to pay their employees under the minimum wage ONLY because WE the tax payers make up the shortfall. Emergency medical care, child benefits, housing credits, school breakfasts and lunches, college grants. Right now you and I are subsidising Mac Donalds, Wal Mart and a whole host of big companies.

Even people who work "full time" often only get 38 hours/wekk so the company doens't have to pay them benefits.

[lauriep]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horseless In Georgia:
But some people don't have drive to make more money and do better in their lives - that is very obvious! I shouldn't have to pay for those people!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And some, many, aren't smart enough, or have some disability, or are in the wrong social strata to become good students, to get or take advantage of, further education. Some feel really good that they graduated from high school, or got their GED. It has nothing to do with drive or ambition.

[silver]

So Oakleigh if all these people get PhDs who is going to work at McDonalds? Also, it may have escaped your notice bu there are a LOT of very, very well educated and experienced people that are out of work at the moment. The country is not exactly crying out for more educated workers.

We need people at all levels of society, to do cutting edge research, and to take out the trash and they should ALL be able to earn a living wage. $14K a year is not a living wage.

I don't think some of you have any idea of what it is like to not have money or family money.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Look at the vast number of parents who are home-schooling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When can those parents work?

[varider30]

For what it is worth, I don't subscribe to that philosophy of "My mom and dad didn't sit down with me and "teach" me how to "learn". That's the culture of poverty argument and it doesn't hold water. My parents were too busy when I was younger to worry about sitting with me and "helping me learn". I did it on my own, and then went to college, and then to graduate school...and graduated with a 4.0 GPA....with ZERO financial assistance from my folks. I completed both my undergraduate degree and my graduate degree while holding down a full-time job on the side. In fact, when I was an undergrad, my neighbor who was a single mom on welfare would bring me over food because "she couldn't possibly eat all of the food" she was given through food stamps and other mechanisms. Of course, she also went shopping a lot more than I did because the government paid for her apartment . So no....I do not subscribe to the ideology that those less fortunate need multiple helping hands and govt. entitlements. They need to have a will to better themselves...and then the motivation to go ahead and do it .

[WildBlue]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horseless In Georgia:
But some people don't have drive to make more money and do better in their lives - that is very obvious! I shouldn't have to pay for those people!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And some, many, aren't smart enough, or have some disability, or are in the wrong social strata to become good students, to get or take advantage of, further education. Some feel really good that they graduated from high school, or got their GED. It has nothing to do with drive or ambition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, here. I'm one of the exceptions that folks like Horseless would like to see as the norm. I grew up in poverty and a broken home, and then busted my a** for 10 years to get an education and good job. A lot of it WAS huge amounts of drive coupled with ambition, self-discipline, sacrifice, and the willingness to be completely driven by my ambitions, but also took plenty of things OUTSIDE my control: above-average smarts, a very healthy body, good role models, a personality that helps me take risks and make the kind of decisions it required, and more than my fair share of good old fashioned luck.

I used to assume that "I did it, why can't everyone else?" and have since realized that many* people are simply unable to do so and that it is unfair of me to judge them based upon my own experiences.

However, FWIW, most of the "entitlement princesses" I know come from reasonably well-off families. Most kids from the working poor know how to work.

Edited to add: * You'll note that I said "many", not "all". I know a few bone-idle folks that I'd like to 'help' with a good kick in the pants.

[Magnolia]

OK, Poverty affects us all adversely. Here is my case study.

50 years ago in Charlotte, the center city was poverty central. So the wealthy moved to the first rier of suburbs. Now our central areas have declined so far, that it is quite profitable to fix 'em up and sell 'em back to the rich.

So where do the poor go? They go to the bastion of middle class, the first tier suburbs. So, since everything is kind of dated, there are some opportunities for the poor their now. So maybe some of the better of middle classers move to the next tier of suburbs, formerly known as "Farm Country".

Now, these poor folks can't afford to keep up a home that is 50 years old and needs some work, and the landlords don't get enough rent to justify upkeep on the homes. So what happens? Homes in these middle class neighborhoods begin dilapidating - an uncut lawn here, paint job there. So more of our middle class decides to skedaddle to horse country, consuming more land, cause who wants to live next to "Those People, bad people because their jobs don't pay enough to afford a decent house. So houses get dumped quick, creating an oversupply of rapidly dilapidating housing, and the last few middle class sellers are screwed out of their investment.

So now we have a neighborhood that is 1/2 working poor, 1/4 middle class trying to sell, and 1/4 unrentable property? Now who moves in? Druggers and Hookers, so the last few homeowners dump their homes, because it is just unsafe taking a huge loss and buy into the next tier of torn up horse farm subdivision.

So maybe some of you are rich enough to live far from where poverty can get ya, but sprawl caused by poverty sure will.....

[silver]

More evidence of financial wrong-doing to do with Iraq. From CNN

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The FBI has made a formal request to interview the Army Corps of Engineers chief contracting officer who has alleged her agency unfairly awarded no-bid contracts worth billions of dollars to a Halliburton subsidiary for work in Iraq, law enforcement sources said Thursday.

The FBI interview of Bunnatine Greenhouse, who has made the allegations, has not yet taken place. Law enforcement sources also said several documents have been gathered by the FBI related to the no-bid contracts, but they did not characterize the nature of the documents.
...
Time magazine reported this week that Greenhouse raised concerns about the awarding of a $7 billion no-bid contract to Kellogg Brown and Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, during a meeting in February 2003, just one month before the invasion of Iraq began.

She argued that the five-year term of the contract was not justified. Afterward, she was warned to stop interfering and threatened with demotion, according to Time, which spoke with her attorney, Michael Kohn.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me, this does not fall under the heading fo "fiscally responsible".

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Exactly what I am trying to get to. Pay decent wages, and many of the entitlement programs could be done away with. But you can't have both sub-living wages, and no social programs to help people. And ya know what? Some people will never be able to get into colleges, even community colleges, to better themselves. WalMart and the like are all that they will ever have. Do we hold that against them? Do we make them have less productive family roles because they have to work 3 jobs? I would rather have them home in the evenings, helping their kids with THEIR schoolwork, keeping them off the streets, and trying to keep a cohesive family unit, then have mom or dad working the graveyard shift at WalMart for their 3rd job of the day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is too simplistic for the actuality. What you fail to realize is that employers must pay workman's comp based on wages paid. They match social security with-holding. If they offer benefits, often they must match employee contribution. The costs of having employees far exceeds the cost of hourly pay.

Oakleigh

[SGray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WildBlue:
......However, FWIW, most of the "entitlement princesses" I know come from reasonably well-off families. Most kids from the working poor know how to work...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with WildBlue here

A certain relative of mine (who shall remain nameless) knows EXACTLY how many hours he must work before he would be eligible for unemployment benefits -- he is a highly skilled, highly paid construction worker. Now I grant that construction work is hard work and it is not steady work, but I have to admit that it can be irritating to hear him talking about how many hours he will have to put in and then how long u-b's will last before he will have to work again (particularly since he makes ~3 times more than I do when he does work).

And, as WB said, he comes from a stable, upper middle class family with well educated parents.

[DMK]

And yet, Oakleigh, I think you ovesimplify from the other perspective...

Yes, there are people who abuse the system. Any system. Chances are, if we could cut down on corporate tax evasions, we would have plenty of money to throw away on the people abusing the other end of the system. Not that we should do such a thing, mind you (throw away money, I mean).

But my point is that there are a small group of abusers in the big scheme of things, but the vast majority of the people use that system to get their feet back under them, and they go on to being productive members of society. This doesn't mean we shouldn't improve the system, but this wholesale condemnation of anyone who hits that system is equally simplistic and fails to understand the actuality, ya know?

And now for your political humor:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Deer caught in crossfire with Tucker Carlson

First it was that insouciant comedian Jon Stewart. Now it's Bambi who's troubling Tucker Carlson.

Early Wednesday, the "Crossfire" co-host had an unfortunate encounter with two deer on Interstate 95 south of Baltimore, according to the Washington Post's "Reliable Source." Only one deer survived, but Carlson escaped unhurt.

Tip for Tucker: between now and next Tuesday, travel with a pack of your beloved President Bush's wolves. They may not be terrorists, but they can sure cull deer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[silver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oakleigh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Exactly what I am trying to get to. Pay decent wages, and many of the entitlement programs could be done away with. But you can't have both sub-living wages, and no social programs to help people. And ya know what? Some people will never be able to get into colleges, even community colleges, to better themselves. WalMart and the like are all that they will ever have. Do we hold that against them? Do we make them have less productive family roles because they have to work 3 jobs? I would rather have them home in the evenings, helping their kids with THEIR schoolwork, keeping them off the streets, and trying to keep a cohesive family unit, then have mom or dad working the graveyard shift at WalMart for their 3rd job of the day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is too simplistic for the actuality. What you fail to realize is that employers must pay workman's comp based on wages paid. They match social security with-holding. If they offer benefits, often they must match employee contribution. The costs of having employees far exceeds the cost of hourly pay.

Oakleigh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oakleigh if you can't afford that stuff you just have a bad business plan and should go bankrupt. Drives me crazy that the government is shoring up a bunch of essentially failing businesses with its subsidies and tax breaks at MY expense and the business owners get all the benefit.

[Magnolia]

How would you feel if you walked into a barn and saw 4 groups of horses:

Group 1 was 2 valuable Grand Prix Jumpers. So rare that they each got a 20'x20' box stall, knee deep with straw, personal vet, grooms, massages. They worked very hard for their owners and won lots of money at jumper shows.

Group 2 was some nice 3'6 horses. They each had a 12'x12' stall, with lots of shaving. They were groomed each time they worked and got sgood feed and turnout in a nice lush pasture. The vet checked them over regularly.

Group 3 were the 2'6-3' jumpers. They had no stalls, but a nice pasture with clover, regular feed and got groomed 2 or 3 times a week. They worked hard, giving lessons and going to shows.

Group 4 were the non-jumpers - they didn't have the talent. They gave beginner lessons. they lived in a muddy paddock, and got food only on the days they worked. The local humane society came 4 times a year to trim their feet and do any vet work. The barn didn't think they generated enough revenue to justify grooming them or regular vet care and anyway, it was easy enough to replace them.....

Sounds like some corporate structures. Kind of cruel if you put it on an animal level.

[CessnaPilot]

Magnolia -

I see that everyday, it is called life. the difference in your story is that you are talking about horses who have no ability to make a choice to determine their life direction, someone else (a human capable of rational thought and communication) is making that decision for them.

There is not limit to what a person can achieve in our country, should they decide that is what they want. Ones choices determine your destiny.

[Erin]

For all of you who are saying that these people should just pull themselves by their own bootstraps...

What happens if they don't? What happens if they just don't have the will and the drive to do it completely on their own like (I think) WildBlue did?

Maybe you feel it is natural selection at work or something, and that all of these people will just starve to death. Sure, they might, eventually... but in the meantime, the urban ghettos will grow, crime will grow up, and we will all BE LESS SAFE.

Come on, we have to be a little bit sensible about this and not just say "sink or swim," because those that sink drag us all down with them.

I'm not saying that we should give everyone a free college degree, free healthcare, free job training, all on the back of the taxpayers who DID pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. But I *do* think it is a good idea to try to give the less fortunate at least a little push in the right direction and a helping hand.

This is something that is common in all civilized societies, and economically works out for the BETTER. As others have said, preventative medicine is cheaper than emergency care for advanced disease. Some job training is cheaper than unemployment. Scholarships are cheaper than housing criminals in jail for the rest of their natural lives.

And yes, of course we should work to make the system as un-abuseable as possible.

I'm honestly not sure what you're advocating Oakleigh. Color me confused.

[Magnolia]

I don't know what the solution is. But I do know a lot of people have had the rug pulled out from under them in the past few years. There are whole communities in NC that lost their jobs when the mill closed down. Now they get sent to Community College to learn "Computers" only to see those jobs sent to foreign countries as well. I suppose they could go into healthcare, but how long before supply catches up to demand and those jobs become dead end too..... Trust me, these people are trying. It just isn't working.

I work for a small business, hell yes they need to make things easier. I am my bosses only employee. She pays Paychex $75 a month to process my paycheck because the system of taxes is too much for my boss to understand. We recently spent $7000 in legal and accounting fees to get a small government contract worked out. It isn't easy. We spend way to much time on this junk. Makes me wish for a flat tax system!

[Oakleigh]

Erin, I'm not advocating anything. I'm just stating that there are already plenty of programs already available for those with the desire to improve themselves. I also stated that merely raising the minimum wage is not as simplistic as another poster thought it would be. There are many "hidden" costs to having employees that are not being thought through. A $3 big mac would cost alot more than $4. The impact on small business would be immense.

Oakleigh

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by silver:
[Oakleigh if you can't afford that stuff you just have a bad business plan and _should_ go bankrupt. Drives me crazy that the government is shoring up a bunch of essentially failing businesses with its subsidies and tax breaks at MY expense and the business owners get all the benefit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Silver, did I EVER mention my own business in the posting? Why make this personal? My own business is very successful and my employees have been with me for up to 17 years. I seriously doubt they would stay if they weren't being compensated very well. I have sent my staff to college. I have rewarded their desire to improve their skills.

Let's keep my personal businesses out of this discussion.

Oakleigh

[Perfect Pony]

What amuses me is it doesn't seem as though anyone in this discussion has taken economics 101. The fact is, we NEED the poor and unemployed in a capitalist society for it to function. There ARE NOT enough jobs to employ all highly skilled and educated workers, and lately the availability of those jobs is getting smaller and smaller. Those of you who say that these lazy people should just get off the arses and get educated, for what? On top of that, who would do the jobs that you don't want to do, but you rely on? Who would stock your shelves, make your burgers, babysit your children, clean your house, mow your lawns, muck your stalls, bail your hay, sweep your streets, clean your hotel rooms, the list goes on and on. The issue is here, if we do not demand a living wage for these people doing these jobs we end up with the kind of poverty we see, where people cannot even EAT or get health care. It is ridiculous to just say, "let them get educated to get a better job/make more money" it's a slippery slope. So what happens? Well let's see...immigrants come into the country and live in extreme poverty and take the really crap jobs. Companies outsource technical jobs overseas where they can pay pennies on the dollar. More and more skilled and educated workers compete for "good" jobs.

Our capitalist economy would collapse without poverty and unemployment. So really the only thing we can do is raise wages to a living wage, and not judge our economic health on the premise that is must continually GROW. I am watching it right now in my company, and I hate to say it but it is us workers who always pay the price in the long run as profits cannot keep growing without cutting expenses, and eventually those expenses will = you.