Election Day is oming - do you know who you are voting for and WHY?

[nhwr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm for Bush because I don't agree that he is stupid and I don't think he has lied to us. I think he may have been given bad information. I don't think Albert Einstein would have been a good President because he was too smart and would not have been able to reduce things to their simple elements.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird,

Bush either mislead the American people or has the most appalling lack of analytical skills known to mankind. Either he never asked the basic question "What if my information isn't correct?" or he got the justification he was looking for and decided to move on it before it was disproved or questioned. So take your pick, he is an idiot or a liar.


Einstein was a simple man really, brilliant but simple. He might not have made a bad leader.



"Action without thought is a form of insanity; Thought without action is a crime."

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

"The search for truth is more precious than its possession."

"Most of the fundamental ideas of science are essentially simple, and may, as a rule, be expressed in a language comprehensible to everyone."

"Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelationship of means and ends."

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree."

"We all know, from what we experience with and within ourselves, that our conscious acts spring from our desires and our fears."

"And the high destiny of the individual is to serve rather than to rule, or to impose himself in any otherway."

"I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

"Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding."

"Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
THAT's relativity."

"The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one."

"You cannot prevent and prepare for war at the same time."


All of the above quotes are Albert Einstein's.

[silver]

Interesting site: Republicans For Kerry

Lots of surprusing endorsements for Kerry on there, including Mary Lou Halliburton, Eisenhowers son,the editor of American Conservative magazine, McCain and Reagan aids qand administration officials, Bush peres top security advisor, Republican state senators etc.

To be fair the Guardian has also run stories from a life long Democrat who plans on voting Republican this time around.

[blueboo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snowbird:
O

If you hire someone to do a job and they say I need four people and the job doesn't get done because his excuse is well I really needed 8 people but I didn't want to tell anyone. That's one thing but the Military in charge have not said they were short handed. They say they're on schedule. They say it's working fine and submit their reports. Why would you fire them because someone else says it's worse than it is.

We don't have all the information, they can't give us all the information. Hell we can't even get information about the USEF. But, I'm willing to trust the experts that surround George W. I trust Colin Powell I think he is one of our all time greats. I sure trust them more than some officers who got passed over for the job and a couple of amateurs with no performance record and just lots of real "Pretty words" we want to hear that make us feel good. Bring the boys home and a chicken in every pot.

We've done isolationism and it gave us the World War II. I'd rather scrap now, been there and done that and won anyway. We saved the world for the Europeans but they still thought of us as uncouth uncivilized ugly americans, after they put our money in the bank.

We can't keep on letting the Middle East simmer on the stove. I pray that George W is right and his experts are right and the domino effect will end this with freedom for all those countries. It won't be perfect, it may not be the government we would like to see, but what the heck parents can't even get their kids to live their lives the way the parents want.

QUOTE]

Actually Snowbird that's not quite true - they are virtually ALL saying they are and have been from the beginning, woefully undermanned.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Poltroon think if there was a crisis on your business would that be the time to change employees? I cannot imagine anyone with common sense who would do that in the middle of a battle. Sure! the minute the crisis had passed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird, I think a legion of former slaves just rolled over in their graves, thanking the good Lord that you weren't dispensing sage advice to Lincoln when he booted MClellan and put Grant in charge.

But if you want to know what Jude Wanniski, a former Reagan official thinks about this whole "change" thing, here ya go...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> From Wanniski's endorsement of Kerry yesterday:

"There are a lot of little reasons why I should be voting for the re-election of President Bush, for whom I gladly cast my vote in 2000. The one big reason why I will vote for Senator Kerry next Tuesday is that he is an internationalist, as am I, and Mr. Bush has become an imperialist -- one whose decisions as Commander-in-chief have made the world a more dangerous place. ...

"If there is anything I’ve learned about Senator Kerry in this campaign, it is that he believes in hearing out and taking seriously the opinions of the other countries of the world. When he says that if he had been President, we would not have gone to war with Iraq, there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that he is telling the truth. And it would not have been because the U.N. Security Council would not have given him 'a permission slip,' but because the rest of the world could plainly see that the diplomacy of the U.N. was working, that UNMOVIC and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) had concluded there were no existing weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and no WMD programs in operation. ...

"By this time, with one revelation after another of the mismanagement of foreign policy and national security under President Bush, I’d hoped he would find a way to signal the electorate that things would be different in a second term; that would require a change in personnel at the top. It would have meant Dick Cheney’s replacement with a GOP internationalist. It would also have meant a clean sweep of the neo-cons who cooked up the war -- and who misled a President who did not have the experience to be able to figure out he had been manipulated into realizing their imperial fantasies. Sadly, there is no indication a second term would be any different than a first...

"I will cast my first vote for the Democrat in a presidential contest since I pulled the lever for Lyndon Johnson in 1964. And I will do so with enthusiasm for the Senator's views on how to manage the world, having come to appreciate the way his mind works." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I don't know much about Mr. Wanniski other than he coined the phrase "supply side economics" which means I can't imagine we would have ever seen eye to eye on any issue, but I could not agree with him more here (note to self - give Republicans a chance).

But Snowbird, I couldn't agree with you more about Colin Powell. He is one of the greats. Unfortunately he is one of the most marginalized members of this administration, and its no secret that Cheney distrusts him and wants him neutralized. At no point has he played much more role for this administration than the opportunity to have his international credibility knocked down while he plays their monkey.

At this point we have both former Iraqi admiistrators (Garner and Bremer) saying one of our biggest mistakes was NOT using the State department's plan for post war operations. I mean that one was a slam dunk. That's what we have the State Department for! Having a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was icing on the cake. Who better to understand the intricacies of managing a country armed to the teeth and seething with ethnic tensios and American hatred? Oh right. Wolfowitz of Arabia and Darth Cheney (and let's not forget Ahmad Chalabi!). Well to paraphrase Dr. Phil "How's that workin' for ya?" Not well, and not well enough that Powell has signaled that he is out if Bush serves another term.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm not really concerned if they photograph me or track my computer because I don't do anything to be ashamed of and if the security of the country is at stake well I'll walk barefooted in an airport.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How far are you willing to let them go? Personally, I hate being "tracked" and the costs that go along with it. It is humiliating to me to be pulled at the airport and searched like a criminal. If I wanted to be under constant survellance I'd move to China.

And the remark about poor fat people was quite cruel and unnecessary. Many are fat exactly because they are malnourished. I highly suggest you come live in one of Charlotte's impoverished areas for a month and be carless. Let's see how you look after a month without access to a normal grocery - what are you going to eat when all you have access to is a Bojangles and a convenience store with 50 kinds of malt liquor and no fresh foods.

Poverty is NOT fun. Very few even receive the welfare anymore. Most aid programs are quite limited to the disabled and children. It is upsetting to me to see people living in substandard housing, yet wearing a McDonald's uniform. Many of the "poor" work and work quite hard. They are not paid enough to live and are forced to eat things like wonderbread and mac and cheese because they can't afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables.

I understand the animosity toward the welfare queens of the past, but please consider that a good many of those needing aid work 40+ hours a week. If you can come up with a way to live off $12,500 a year, then write a pamphlet and hand it out to the people who have to live like paupers all while working to serve you.

[HFSH]

Thanks for leaving the political threads open Mods!

[SGray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
As suggested, I'll leave the two political threads open on this forum through... Tuesday, I guess? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THANK YOU ERINTHANK YOU ERINTHANK YOU ERIN

I truly appreciate the chance to discuss politics civilly

[lauriep]

Me too, and by and large, the number of thinking, intelligent, educated, well spoken people on these boards is staggering! I post on a couple of others (non-horse), and am appalled by the mudslinging that comes from the very first post on a subject.

Thanks Erin, and thanks to all my BB fellow posters and friends for keeping it civil and educational!

[SGray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
..... It is upsetting to me to see people living in substandard housing, yet wearing a McDonald's uniform. Many of the "poor" work and work quite hard. They are not paid enough to live and are forced to eat things like wonderbread and mac and cheese because they can't afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables.

I understand the animosity toward the welfare queens of the past, but please consider that a good many of those needing aid work 40+ hours a week. If you can come up with a way to live off $12,500 a year, then write a pamphlet and hand it out to the people who have to live like paupers all while working to serve you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good little book some of you might enjoy titled "Nickled and Dimed" (sorry don't remember auther off the top of my head) but it is a female journalist

she traveled to different areas of the country and tried to live (survive) taking unskilled labor positions (waitress, maid, sales clerk,...) - it was quite revealing to my little sheltered self

[ser42]

Snowbird- well, I work in a hospital. Trust me, there are many homeless people out there that are skinny. Even the majority of ones who are "not skinny," as you put it, are malnourished. And, I fail to see these "fancy perks" they are getting.

Yes, you are right- when my hospital accepts homeless people or others who cannot pay for their medical care- the rest of us make up the difference sooner or later. We as a community pay for the "free" care hospitals have an obligation to provide. This is why I don't understand why people don't support a health care proposal that uses government funds to offer such people insurance. Trust me, if it doesn't come out of your tax dollars, it'll still come out of your pocket one way or another. The current system just doesn't work, however- we need to give the poor insurance so that they can obtain PREVENTATIVE medicine, which in the end saves us all a lot of money, not to mention them a lot of grief. How do we pay for such a system? Well, let's start by curbing some of Bush's spending, work on decreasing the costs of drugs in this country, etc. If you are a fiscal conservative, how do you support Bush?

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
Poverty is NOT fun. Very few even receive the welfare anymore. Most aid programs are quite limited to the disabled and children. It is upsetting to me to see people living in substandard housing, yet wearing a McDonald's uniform. Many of the "poor" work and work quite hard. They are not paid enough to live and are forced to eat things like wonderbread and mac and cheese because they can't afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables.

I understand the animosity toward the welfare queens of the past, but please consider that a good many of those needing aid work 40+ hours a week. If you can come up with a way to live off $12,500 a year, then write a pamphlet and hand it out to the people who have to live like paupers all while working to serve you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see the working poor. I stand in line behind them in the grocery store. The "welfare queens" are alive and well. They buy steak and freshly steamed shrimp while I buy my chicken and rice. They have cell phones, cable tv, and DSL. Much of what you describe is choice. They could grow their own vegetables and fruit. It's not rocket science. Your description of them, Magnolia, is skewed.

Voting is important. Researching and understanding the issues and voting intelligently is more important. If one doesn't know anything about a certain issue, there is no shame in not voting on that individual issue.

Don't believe all the promises you hear from a candidate. Remember, he is only one part of the three branches of government. Cooperation must be had from the congress (legislative) and judicial branches, or all the promises are moot. You can have the most elaborate "plan" in the world and still achieve nothing.

Please remember to VOTE!
Oakleigh

[ser42]

I'm sorry, Oakleigh- how do you know these people are the working "poor"? Do you have access to their financial records? How do you know they have the land to "grow their own fruit?"

Is it because they are using food stamps? Well, you know, some military families near my neck of the woods are using food stamps. Would you consider them welfare queens? Or would you rather have a President who will actually pay our service men and women enough to survive on?

By the way- if you are under the impression that you are completely self-sufficient- did you go to public school? Do you have a mortgage underwritten by Fannie Mae? Did you obtain student loans? I could go on and on....

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> They have cell phones, cable tv, and DSL. Much of what you describe is choice. They could grow their own vegetables and fruit. It's not rocket science. Your description of them, Magnolia, is skewed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oakleigh, with all due respect, I have lived among some quite extreme poverty that is not what you think. The ones with the cell phones and DSL are drug dealers.

A dear friend in college was a veteran. He was a little mentally off, but sweet nonetheless. He worked as a cook at a Pizza Hut. He worked har, willing to work whenever, for minimum wage. He had no phone. No cell phones. Was pleased when we gave him an old TV with rabbit ears. We lived in a building with no yard to grow fruit and veggies. He never whined or complained, but I shudder to think what would become of him if he ever got sick and couldn't work.

I invite you to come see some duplexes in my neighborhood where 8 people have crammed into 2 bedrooms. They have no yard to grow produce. Yet they work too.

And come visit the $500 a month apartments near me. Rent one. Dig up the yard. See how they feel.

To think that there are great pockets of people buying cell phones and DSL with welfare checks is as ignorant as my assertion that there are no welfare queens.

[Oakleigh]

Ser42. I never said I was completely self sufficient. I don't know what that has to do with anything. I just said that Magnolia's pathetic picture of the working poor is not accurate.

Where there's a will, there's a way. The mentality of being entitled to a government handout has gotten completely out of control. We did not even have these government programs until President Lyndon Johnson established them. I think the will of the people has been damaged by these programs. The programs encourage them to be more reliant on staying in that social strata, instead of encouraging them and rewarding them for improving themselves and their position.

Less government is better.

Oakleigh

[ser42]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Less government is better.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is why you should be voting for Kerry.

My point was I don't understand this bitterness toward the less fortunate- we ALL receive help in some way or another.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The mentality of being entitled to a government handout has gotten completely out of control. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I buy that, but there is a large portion of our population, the working poor who is NOT receiving any kind of hand out.

Would you name 3 new "social hand out" programs that John Kerry is proposing? That have even been started in the past 10 years at the federal level?

[Oakleigh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ser42:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Less government is better.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point was I don't understand this bitterness toward the less fortunate- we ALL receive help in some way or another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ser42, I believe you misunderstand me. I have no bitterness toward the less fortunate. I am just pointing out that all these "working poor" cannot be painted with the same brush.

Magnolia, thanks, but I have no desire to debate your candidate's platform. I'm trying to establish calm and civility in my own life.

Oakleigh

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I am just pointing out that all these "working poor" cannot be painted with the same brush.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good, but some of them sure could use a wee bit of help. I don't know if it comes from the government or private agencies, but there are people out there making your burgers and stocking your Wal-Marts shelves who are living in substandard conditions. This part of our population needs to at least be acknowledged, even if we do not care to help them.

[lauriep]

So, if you are against further social programs to help the welfare queens, are you also against raising the minimum wage to something approaching a realistic wage?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel that someone should have to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. And there are many companies (WalMart, McDonald's) who aren't going to do this unless compelled to by the gov't.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel that someone should have to work 3 jobs to make ends meet. And there are many companies (WalMart, McDonald's) who aren't going to do this unless compelled to by the gov't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And if you are working a Wally/Mc Job, it can be quite hard to have a 2nd job, as in many cases your schedule may vary from week to week according to business need.

My thought - establish a 40 hour living wage by MSA (to factor in places like San Fran vs Podunck Indiana) that allows one to rent a 2 BR apartment with a roommate, pay for a high deductable insurance plan, covers basic transportation for the area (bus fare if available, otherwise, the cost of an average used vehicle), and moneys for basic food (there is an amount that covers what it costs to get all your nutrition in) and electricity. Then give tax credits/aid to all workers making less than that. And make companies not paying that minimum post how much help THEY get from taxpayers to pay a living wage.