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Election Day is oming - do you know who you are voting for and WHY?

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We were talking about the raising of the minimum wage; that the built in "must pays" would also go up, albeit NOT significantly, is a given. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Why not adjust law so that those don't have to go when pay goes up?
    The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

    Comment


    • One in eight Americans now lives below the poverty line (read in the London Times today). Not all those people are stupid and lazy. A lot of them work and plenty of them receive no benefits at all, due to being migratory workers or homeless or above the welfare cut off. Their children usually drop out of school to work as teenagers, they haven't a chance in the world of getting out of that cycle of poverty.

      Comment


      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hosspuller:
        Poltroon...

        You said: "Similarly, I would never expect a laborer to work for less money than it costs him to generate that labor. "

        The only time this is true, it's called slave labor. That's the beauty of this country, it's people are free to chose <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        Actually, not really. If an owner bought slaves, he still had to count the cost of feeding and caring for the slave against the additional work the slave brought.

        Whether you're a company providing goods and services, or an individual producing labor, when the income you get is less than the cost to produce what you sell, you pretty much have these choices:

        1. Cut costs
        2. Get creative/innovate/find a new market (requires some capital to stay afloat)
        3. Invest some capital to stay afloat and hope things get better, until you run out of capital
        4. Crime
        5. Die

        Remember, when people say, "Americans are too lazy to do this job" what they mean is "Americans will not do the job for the wage I'm paying." And in many cases, that's because for the laborer the costs (living and work related expenses) exceed the income for that job.
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

        Comment


        • Beezer and Silver: What in the transcripts of OBL is relevant?

          Iraq to all indications were developing weapons. They had demonstrated their willingness to use them too.
          In this world war, the key is deny-ability. There is no country that can attack us openly like Pearl Harbor. Our Military capability is total deterrence to open aggression.
          Every enemy must hide from us. A country that's closed to view is an ideal place to develop and provide WMD to a terrorist. Their attack on us comes from nowhere. Should we merely waste whole countries and ethnic groups? Carpet bombs, mass attack on cities, Nukes! No ... We choose to sacrifice our blood and treasure to defeat our adversaries on the ground . The cold war tactic of containment leads to failure in the new war of terror. Defense is never 100%. The laws of chance are against us in the terror lottery. I believe terror will succeed in getting another hit here. I think the 9/11 commission to fix blame on SOMEONE is a waste of time. The only value is to learn from our mistakes. (and there were plenty)
          Only open societies are a deterence to terror groups.
          Equus makus brokus but happy

          Comment


          • Sorry to be so cynical - but y'all have to know that it doesn't matter who wins the election. Economic prosperity and downturns are cyclical, there will always be the poor, the dispossessed and the very rich, and if you like gov't healthcare I suggest you go overseas and experience it firsthand before voting. It may be free, but y'all won't like sleeping in a hallway and waiting 6 months to see a dr.

            One party might say they are "for" the little man - but the truth is anyone who wants to be President should probably be automatically disqualified. I'd rather have my mother in law as President - she's a kook but I know she's not a crook.

            Y'all seem to be smart folks - whaddya think of bin Laden's little video? Think it will sway the election? If so, why? And do you think it was a ploy so that he might appear to be a "player" in global politics?
            Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
            Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
            -Rudyard Kipling

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hosspuller:
              Beezer and Silver: What in the transcripts of OBL is relevant? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              I am guessing that Beezer is referring to this:

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them.

              We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.

              ...


              During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Now, I am pretty sure we can all agree that we're not fans of ol' Osama. Obviously there is no justification for 9/11. But I think it behooves us to try to understand why the terrorists THINK it is justified, in their own minds.

              It isn't because of the Stars and Stripes, baseball, mom, or apple pie. They don't hate our freedom, and it has always galled me that Bush has tried to make it into that. They don't hate the fact that we "want to live."

              They don't hate US, they hate what we have DONE, as a country, to other countries.

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Iraq to all indications were developing weapons. They had demonstrated their willingness to use them too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              WHAT INDICATIONS??! There were no WMD found, and just recently a commission investigating (I wish I could remember WHICH commission or find their report but...) said that, in essence, the sanctions had worked. Hussein was not pursuing a WMD program. He had been marginalized. He had no capability to attack the U.S. in March 2002 and was not pursuing the means to do so.

              Again, I think we all agree that something needed to be done in Iraq... it is not good that the inspectors were tossed out and that we just turned a blind eye for so many years. But surely there was a middle ground between pretending Iraq didn't exist and blowing it up?

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A country that's closed to view is an ideal place to develop and provide WMD to a terrorist. Their attack on us comes from nowhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Sure, but Iraq was not one of those countries... they HAD allowed inspectors back in, and as it turns out in hindsight, there was nothing for the inspectors to find anyway.

              9/11 did not come out of nowhere. Sure, it seems that way to us little people, but the intelligence community knew about the possibility (and issued a report specifically outlining the possibility of terrorists using airplanes as bombs).

              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think the 9/11 commission to fix blame on SOMEONE is a waste of time. The only value is to learn from our mistakes. (and there were plenty)
              Only open societies are a deterence to terror groups. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              But Bush opposed forming the 9/11 commission, did not want to testify, and has dragged his feet on implementing their recommendations. So please, tell me HOW this administration has learned from their mistakes?

              Comment


              • Roosevelt made a mistake when he chose the lesser road and allowed the Russians to join the Allies after they discovered that Hitler was not honest and was going to attack them. If Roosevelt had not made that mistake we would have not ever had the berlin Wall and half of European under the Russian boot.

                I never heard that he admitted that or that he admitted he provoked the Japanese into the attack at Pearl Harbor so he could get into the war to help England.

                A man who is in charge has to make calls for action that he believes. I agree with Bush because it was a mistake which the Bush family admitted for George 41st not to go to Baghdad in the first Gulf War. The Iraqi people expected us and they were abandoned for a more cautious approach. I don't blame them if they don't trust us now thinking we will once again abandon them before the job is done.

                If the man who lives next door to me is harboring criminals that steal and sell children and I tell the police but they say we can't do anything until we catch them with the children and prove that the children were stolen and sold. I would take premptive action if it meant I had to go to jail.

                Would I admit sitting in jail that it was wrong NO! not at all. The police told me there was nothing they could do because a former employee kept calling telling me he was going to burn the barn down. They couldn't even arrest him if they found him sitting in the barn with a can of gasoline and a lit match.

                I bought a 12 guage shot gun which sits still next to my bed with pellet spray bullets and if I hear a car that should not be coming down my driveway believe it, I will shoot first and ask questions later. I think that would also be premptive action. Then I would come in and pour a whole bottle of vodka all over me and claim mental incompetence and the horses would be alive.

                If Saddam Hussein was playing head games with our CIA and all the other spy networks, he sure gave them the impression he had those weapons. Maybe he did move empty trucks around and maybe it was all a scam to pretend he was a big man. Well George W called his bluff and he's out of there and in jail. Yes! I feel safer!

                I believe that our Security people believed him. Hindsight is always 20/20. Why this fetish to tear down this country is it the same thing that makes us as horse people believe that all Show managers are money grubbers over charging, and the Stewards have sold out to the Show mangers, and the Judges are all political and no one is perfectly wonderful except the competitors and of the few that might sell horses for 10 times their value that are lame and drugged.

                You like Kerry and that's fine, then let him say what he will do to fix things and then take a reality check. We know what we have, do we know if we change if it will be better? If so then what exactly is the cure? I am so tired of Bush bashing instead of an affirmative program.
                http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                Comment


                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I agree with Bush because it was a mistake which the Bush family admitted for George 41st not to go to Baghdad in the first Gulf War. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  When did the Bush family admit that it was a mistake for Daddy not to go to Baghdad? As far as I know, George Senior still stands behind what he wrote in 1998 defending the decision not to go into Baghdad and take out Saddam. Do you have any citations to back up your claim that anybody in the Bush family, with the possible exception of Dubya, ever changed their mind on this? It appears that in doing what Daddy wisely decided not to do, Junior has managed to prove Daddy right .. all the bad things he said would have happened did happen.

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

                    If the man who lives next door to me is harboring criminals that steal and sell children and I tell the police but they say we can't do anything until we catch them with the children and prove that the children were stolen and sold. I would take premptive action if it meant I had to go to jail. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Okay, using this analogy... would you admit that you were wrong if it later turned out the man next door did NOT have stolen children, had no connections to the networks that sell children, and wasn't even trying to steal children? Or would you still insist that it was the right thing to do?

                    Iraq had no WMDs. Iraq had NO involvement in 9/11. Iraq had no collaborative relationship with Al Qaeda.

                    The Bush administration's justification for the war in Iraq would be like, going back to your analogy, you saying that "Well, it turns out my neighbor didn't steal children, but his yard was always a mess so the neighborhood is better off without him."

                    Yeah, the world is better off without Hussein at the helm in Iraq. (Or at least, we hope so... if Iraq falls into complete chaos and destabilizes the Middle East even further and becomes a haven for terrorists, that may not be the case.)

                    But considering how far off the mark this administration was, you're damn tootin' they should have acknowledged mistakes.

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You like Kerry and that's fine, then let him say what he will do to fix things and then take a reality check. We know what we have, do we know if we change if it will be better? If so then what exactly is the cure? I am so tired of Bush bashing instead of an affirmative program. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    I'm not bashing; I'm criticizing this administration's actions and choices. Hell, Dubya provides plenty of bashing fodder. (Prime example... the Give Bush a Brain Game ) But there is plenty of real, concrete, factual evidence with which to disagree and criticize.

                    I'm tired of Bush supporters trying to argue against the facts. Hey, if you think the guy is a good leader and nice folks, more power to ya. But if that colors your perspective to the point where you can't deal with criticism of the mistakes the administration has made, or won't acknowledge the real, true FACTS (repeat after me... no WMDs, no ties to Al Qaeda, no involvement in 9/11), then you need to seriously re-examine why you support this candidate.

                    Comment


                    • SimpoMatt, I think it's worth a quote instead of just a link.

                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      That's from "A World Transformed," by Bush 41 and Scowcroft.

                      Comment


                      • I think the Lie Girls are more fun than the Brain Game .... but maybe that's a guy thing

                        Comment


                        • To those of you who are voting for Kerry, you give me hope. PLEASE, no matter what, PLEASE go VOTE!! It is so important. I have already voted (absentee). I am so happy to hear how smart and informed so many of you are, and not accepting "spin" as "fact"!!

                          Bush's messages sound eerily like Osma Bin Laden's, if you listen carefully. Two wrongs don't make a right, and violence has never brought peace. Why is it that all the bible beaters always scream " EYE FOR AN EYE..." yet forget " turn the other cheek", actual words from Jesus, versus the Old Testament law, that was written before the coming of Christ.

                          I lived in NYC at the time of 9/11, and have friends who almost died. I remember standing on the street, crying while watching the funerals of the dead police and fire fighters. I remember looking at posters on every street corner of faces of missing people. I still can't watch any footage of 9/11 without breaking down.

                          I was a flight attendant at that time as well, based out of Newark, and remember how panicked I was at the time of the attack, not knowing what planes had been hijacked. I ended up leaving my job, because the airline industry tanked after that devestating day, and because of my decision to move to Europe.

                          I know firsthand what 9/11 cost, and the saddest part is, that was just the beginning. The damage came in the form of every American losing civil rights, and living under an increased system of daily fear, IN ADDITION to the actual loss of life.

                          People, Think a bit. This "war" has no end, because it is based on ideology, and is driven by FEAR. Bush feels he is on a mission from God (his OWN WORDS). Guess what extremists also claim??

                          Wars are "won" because one side loses so many lives, they have no choice but to negotiate. And, that is where PEACE begins, and the rebuilding starts. Why haven't we figured out how to skip that part, and just work on the rebuilding? You would think after centuries of war, we would have learned some lessons.

                          Please, please vote Kerry. At the VERY least, he has seen what war is, and knows exactly what it costs. He may be married to a billionare, but at least that fortune is in KETCHUP...not OIL. He doesn't have to give special favors to ANYONE.

                          And to those of you who are worried about tax increases...WHO do you think has to pay for this war? Where do you think the money will come from? TAXES will go up at some time, because they must. Pay now, or Pay later. But we will have to PAY.

                          Why are we rebuilding a country, when OUR OWN IS IN SHAMBLES? Education, health care, poverty, AIDS, Violence...

                          How is it we never had money to fight these social "terrorists", but we can find the money to attack and REBUILD a country that never even attacked us?

                          Because of FEAR. And ARROGANCE. And GREED.

                          Please please vote for Kerry. And, as a final note, in the 2nd presidental debate (which I stayed up until 4 in the morning to watch!) Bush was asked about why Europeans hate him so much, and his answer was that they do not share the same values as Americans. What values would that be?? To have a roof over our heads, clothes on our backs, love, our children well educated and safe, money in our pockets?? Feedom? Peace? Prosperity? NO... we ALL share that. The entire world shares that.

                          What "values" has Bush, in the name of the American People shown the world? Greed, arrogance, impatience, intollerance...the list goes on, and it isn't very pretty. Europeans don't hate Bush and America because they are jealous, they are scared. They are scared that the only Superpower left in the world is led by a complete NUTJOB.

                          Please go vote.

                          Comment


                          • Well, I would be embarrassed and do what everyone else does, cop a plea using diminished capacity and serve 6 months of community service to be rehabilitated. But, I would certainly feel better than living scared even if I had been wrong I would have been afraid for the children until I found out for sure. Justice needs how many bodies to get concerned for the missing children?

                            Yesterday there was a show on about a farmer who didn't like prostitutes. Girls sure the girls had problems but they were somebody's daughter and somebody's sister and the police didn't care until there were 15 missing. Later they discovered bones from 31 scattered on his farm.

                            Yes! and when it was happening we all agreed with George 41st PEACE was a good thing.

                            We didn't know that the Iraqi people expected us in Baghdad. George 41st was always the Gentleman of honor and it would have meant breaking his promise to his coalition which to him was more important than destroying the hopes of the Iraqi. He basically said to them its your job to get rid of Saddam and expected them to do it. They couldn't the boot on their neck was too heavy.

                            What I question is the rage that we have been deceived, Kerry was there and he agreed. Kerry believed the same information the George W. believed. He said he voted against the bill to give our soldiers the supplies they need because there was "pork" in the bill. Why didn't he tell us that then? It was politcally incorrect when you have to get along with the other guys in the Senate.

                            Show me how we know that in his anxiety to make peace he would not settle for the terms of the lowest denomiator in the global coalition. If George W and Kerry were right and the information they were given was right and they did nothing what would you say?

                            Once you've spilled the water the glass is empty and the water is gone, no point in crying over spilled water. They are human and they make mistakes. I prefer a man who takes action to one that sits and waits too long.

                            I'm glad Roosevelt lied to us and we got into World War II in time to save the world from Adolph Hitler and to have saved England. I'm glad Dwight Eisenhower took a chance on the weather in Normandy, it was a gamble that could have ended badly. I'm glad the JFK played chicken with Krushchev and would be even if it came out badly. If we don't give our leaders some latitude to make a choice take risk and make a judgement we're doomed.

                            And, further if Kerry get's elected then I will defend his right to make mistakes for our benefit without penalty. The Clinton mistakes that's another topic but where was the hysteria when the same intelligence people told Clinton that factory was making bombs when it was only making aspirin.
                            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                            Comment


                            • Here is the problem for W. He believes he has divine guidance for his purpose and God can't be wrong. That is what that New York Times quote was all about. If he admits he made a mistake, then he has to face a choice; 1)God made a mistake or 2)maybe God isn't guiding him.
                              See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                              Comment


                              • Two more possibilities: There is no God! or God is dead.

                                If you like that game I can play: If Jesus was God and he knew he was going to be killed then God committed suicide but if God committed suicide, God can't go to paradise because suicide is a sin, so God is in Hell with the other sinners and there's no one home in Paradise.

                                I love the intellectuals Mind Games.
                                http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
                                  But, I would certainly feel better than living scared even if I had been wrong I would have been afraid for the children until I found out for sure. Justice needs how many bodies to get concerned for the missing children? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  And justice needs how many bodies of dead Iraqui civilianss before it says, "OOPS! My bad!"?

                                  Are you saying that because we were scared of Iraq, that was enough reason to invade, "until we found out for sure"? Well, now we know for sure. We were wrong.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What I question is the rage that we have been deceived, Kerry was there and he agreed. Kerry believed the same information the George W. believed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  True. Although since it appears that Bush had designs on Iraq from the time he entered office, it's worth wondering if, had we had a different man in charge, the intelligence might have been evaluated differently, without the haze of the "groupthink" that pervaded this White House. (i.e. the fact that they gave much greated credence to information that supported their position.)

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>He said he voted against the bill to give our soldiers the supplies they need because there was "pork" in the bill. Why didn't he tell us that then? It was politcally incorrect when you have to get along with the other guys in the Senate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Actually, I'll bet it's more politically incorrect to vote against supplies for our troops. And who says Kerry didn't say anthing about it at the time? He was one of only 12 senators who voted against it. You think they all voted "no" without any explanation? That seems like political suicide, in my book.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Show me how we know that in his anxiety to make peace he would not settle for the terms of the lowest denomiator in the global coalition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Well, as I said earlier, he was able to work collaboratively with Jesse Helms. If that's not a polar opposite ideology to a Democrat from Massachusetts, I don't know what is. Yet that investigation was quite successfuly. Kerry has a pretty good record of working with people in the Senate to build a coalition.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Once you've spilled the water the glass is empty and the water is gone, no point in crying over spilled water. They are human and they make mistakes. I prefer a man who takes action to one that sits and waits too long. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  The spilled water analogy is lovely, except for something called acceptance of responsibility. I prefer a man who admits when he is wrong and learns from his mistakes. I prefer a man who might wait just a little longer in order to get GOOD information to one who rushes off half-cocked and ill-informed.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And, further if Kerry get's elected then I will defend his right to make mistakes for our benefit without penalty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  And the war in Iraq is to our benefit how, exactly? They were never a serious threat to us. They were not involved in 9/11. They were not collaborating with Al Qaeda. And bin Laden is alive and well and making video greeting cards. How was this to our benefit??

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                                  • Well, Snowbird. Those are also possibilities but I doubt Bush would entertain them.

                                    As for your mind game; We all know we are going to die. Knowledge of death isn't suicide. And those who sin certainly can go to Heaven, otherwise no one would ever make it there. Besides, it is only a sin for man to commit suicide. Finally, if you are a Christian, you believe that Jesus isn't dead.
                                    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

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                                    • If we didn't know it then by statements of all our experts how do we now know it wasn't true by these same experts?

                                      If they deceived the President and the Congress and were so convincing with photographs then..how do we now know they are not in error once again. Perhaps they believed what they said then as much as what they say now and this is the time they are wrong!
                                      http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

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                                      • You missed the point he knew he was going to be killed at a specific time and place and went there for it to happen when he could have avoided it. It is suicide for a good cause but nevertheless suicide since life is to be treasured and to cooperate in the taking is to be an accomplice.

                                        The body is the Temple of God and God allowed his body to be killed willingly. Without the ressurection into the spirit God would be dead.
                                        http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

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                                        • The issue about bad information is not a legitimate excuse for Bush. This was post 9/11, he knew our intelligence mechanisms were not reliable. But they generated a position that supported what he wanted to do from the day he was sworn in.

                                          It is interesting to me that Bush steadfastly refuses to implement any recomendations for intelligence reform made by the 9/11 commision. Why do you think that might be?

                                          PS God can't die, can he?
                                          See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

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