• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Clones ~ what's the deal there? I don't get it.

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Well, I had a giant poster of Gem Twist autographed by Greg Best on my wall as a girl, so while I'm not technically a geneticist, I'm obviously some kind of authority here ...

    Originally posted by jawa View Post
    Is it true, that there are certain genes that are only expressed when exposed to a particular set of circumstances?

    So the son of Gem Twist could have the SAME genotype, but due to the differences in pregnancies, you could have different phenotypes?[/QUOTE]


    And certainly early training or just clicking with a certain person can change a horse.[/QUOTE]


    But in every situation above, the horse is still the same genotype. It's like saying "Am I still the mother (or father) of my child now that I have a sun tan?"

    A different phenotype is not the same as a different genotype. That's the whole point. I may have a genetic propensity to tan and suffer schizophrenia and my twin would be the same. But if I drop acid a lot and go to Burning Man, I will probably get a tan and schizophrenia. She may not ever express either trait. Our genotypes are still the same.

    Heritance is really a third concept, but I think the question is, "Can there be changes to the genotype and how does that impact clones as sires?"

    A clone is at least as genetically similar to the original as an identical twin, if not more so. (Right? Help me out scientists) In any case, from a heritance standpoint, the same. You are not exactly the same from year to year, things change, even in what you will pass on. But you are still always the father or mother of your children. Any difference is extremely minute and not well understood. Demonstrating performance actually demonstrates nothing to a breeder in this circumstance. Gemini will not be a better sire by learning to jump. His propensity to jump is exactly the same as Gem Twist's and however much of that was a result of Gem Twist's particular environment is irrelevant from a breeding perspective. There is no way to control Gemini's environment to make it like Gem Twists. For one thing, no matter what the kids wear the 80s are never coming back.

    Or: you can only breed for the things you can breed for

    BTW this is already years underway, with performance results, in the world of mule racing
    An auto-save saved my post.

    I might be a cylon


    • #22
      Originally posted by Coanteen View Post
      Interesting. I heard the program, and it sounds like this one (2nd Chance) was a pet from the time he was born. The original, the owner got at age 7, and noticed the docility then.

      Quite likely the bull had a docile enough temperament that could be passed on, but the close had a radically different, spoiled upbringing.
      That's an interesting perspective. I recall thinking - because I work w/ kids and parents (& b/c they treated that bull like a child) how if a parent cloned a beloved child; they couldn't possibly parent it the same way -- and contemplating the myriad of ways having unusually high & specific expectations and preconceptions would negatively impact parent-child interactions. And, I think of my beloved first dog; and how weird it would be to look at an exact replica of him that wasn't him. I guess I am more fascinated by the psychology & dynamics of the humans interacting w/ the cloned animals. It's interesting stuff.
      Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing


      • #23
        Originally posted by HillnDale View Post
        For one thing, no matter what the kids wear the 80s are never coming back.
        And we can all be thankful for that!
        "Friend" me !



        • #24
          One word....epigenetics.


          • #25
            Someone in the Paso Fino world cloned our most famous stallion - Capuchino - a horse with over 5,000 registered offspring. I'm so glad the registry put their foot down to registering this horse because it is almost impossible to find a Paso without his name on the papers. The owner was going to breed him - causing more problems with an already limited gene pool. I would have been fine with the clone had its purpose not been to breed an already over used bloodline - and his sire was famous as well so, between the two of them, the Resorte line is everywhere.
            Capuchino had his time and his legacy lives on in thousands and thousands of Pasos - like mine. It's certainly not as if he was a gelding whose genetics were lost.
            You are what you dare.


            • #26
              Originally posted by jawa View Post
              Is it true, that there are certain genes that are only expressed when exposed to a particular set of circumstances?

              So the son of Gem Twist could have the SAME genotype, but due to the differences in pregnancies, you could have different phenotypes?

              And certainly early training or just clicking with a certain person can change a horse.
              Everything and the kitchen sink changes gene expression, it's a pretty hot study topic right now. Social stress, diet, illness, medication, exercise, different environments (I was part of a study to see how hyperbaric stress changes it) - seriously, gene expression changes during an individual's lifetime due to various influences. Obviously not the kind of "fixed" expression like what your hair color is, but there are constant changes anyway.

              So if you want something that's identical down to the DNA methylation pattern, well: you are not identical to the you from a week ago, most likely.
              Proud Member Of The Lady Mafia


              • #27
                Thanks to the OP for starting this discussion. It has made for very interesting reading. I guess I am the only horse person on the planet who didn't realize there were clones of GT. I was such a fan growing up!


                • #28
                  For reproductive goals, if you are a breeder and are after a certain line the original is not here any more, a clone will give you that exact line genes with a clone.

                  Sure, so much else will keep changing what those genes give you, but it is the closest you get to working with that combination of genes.

                  There are different ways to clone, one lately is with skin cells, as in some famous world champion cutting mare, that was cloned two years after her death.

                  Remember, in science, everyone learns from doing what you try to do, one reason some, like cloning, is so interesting.
                  You never know where more knowledge will lead.

                  Now, when applying that knowledge to the real world, then the questions like registering those clones become more involved, as the lawsuit against the AQHA will bring and probably set a precedent saying a cloned individual is as much one of the breed as the one cloned from.
                  The science there is irrefutable.

                  Their problem, the membership keeps voting against registering clones.
                  The by-laws prohibits anyone from integrating clones without the necessary votes.
                  So, they can't accept clones without the votes, but in a lawsuit they will be mandated to do so if they lose that lawsuit, as they already did other similar ones.

                  I wonder if the AQHA may form a second appendix registry for clones to get around that.