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So did Satan himself design this bit, or just one of his lackeys?

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  • The European TWH Association publishes theirs for free on the web:

    http://www.twhnews.com/European_TWH_...final-704a.pdf

    I'm still searching for the U.S. TWHBEA Rulebook for 2007.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
      One would think that someone who has said they are done with this thread twice that would come back and post would actually provide the wording of the rule, since they are saying there is one.
      I said I was done getting off subject. One would also think that if someone really wanted to know they would buy the rule book and look it up for themself. Especially for the ones who seem to be so concerned with the issue.

      I had to buy my copy and I do not see where me reciting the language for people to mock and twist on a forum will be of any good. If there is someone who honestly wants to know the rule and is not a troll just trying to stir in stink you can PM me and I will tell you. But, I will have to get my rule book from home if you want it word for word.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
        But only to be fair, in the photos, I did see 2 snaffles on big lick horses, and several short shanked curbs. Of course we don't know what the mouthpieces are like, but at least their riders aren't using 10" of shank that they don't need.
        But nobody is saying EVERYONE in the TWH industry is bad! Only that some are, and that the association hasn't gone far enough in protecting the horses.

        I mean, the TWH people know that they're not going to be able to please most of us while they are still padding up the horses like that, but at least they could limit the use of these torture devices! People wouldn't be using them if they didn't bring more wins. Why not start having evidence of more humane training methods start counting for something in the show ring?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ChocoMare View Post
          The European TWH Association publishes theirs for free on the web:

          http://www.twhnews.com/European_TWH_...final-704a.pdf

          I'm still searching for the U.S. TWHBEA Rulebook for 2007.
          TWHBEA's rule book is no good. NHSC rules prevail at all shows affiliated w/ the NHSC. There is only one rule book that the breed shows go by and that is the one published by the NHSC. It is also the one that majority of your Saterday night shows go by. The only time the TWHBEA's rule book will come into play is if it is a show sanctioned by them. Mostly like the versatility shows.

          Comment


          • And isn't this a bit telling???


            A Statement by David Pruett
            August 20, 2008

            On Monday, August 18, I resigned as a director of the National Horse Show Commission. I intended to do this quietly and not distract from the upcoming National Celebration. The NHSC has been a large part of my life the past several years and I’m proud of the accomplishments we have made, therefore my decision to resign is not one that I have taken lightly. The last couple of years we have had the opportunity to be proactive and “do the right thing” willingly and not because we were forced to do so by outside groups or the media. In my opinion, as of late, the NHSC has not taken this opportunity. Decisions by the NHSC board and statements made in executive session have become public knowledge. This may be common practice in the industry but not by me.
            The rider casts his heart over the fence,
            the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

            –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

            Comment


            • Aha! Thanks for the tip
              <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

              Comment


              • Okay...maybe this is a difference in breeds, disciplines, whatever.

                I have been taught that when a horse licks and chews the bit, it is relaxation and acceptance (and you can absolutely feel the difference, in the saddle, when they are not relaxed). Salivation is good because it means that the horse is relaxed through the poll and jaw, and not stuck or resistant or in pain, but accepting. When I'm done riding, my horse's back (I hope!) is relaxed, he's relaxed (though maybe ready for a roll), and by his stance and his eye you can tell whether it has been a positive session. I can understand that in "high gear" - racing, a jumping course, a difficult test, barrels - whatever - that a truly competitive horse gets on a high - but still - you can tell the difference between a good high and a bad one.

                So - asking for enlightenment - what do these horses look like after the ride? Are they willing to take the bit the next time you tack up? Go into the arena? Start their work in a positive frame of mind? because if they are, then I would say that it's working.

                So can someone tell me? I will add, that although I ride dressage, and supposedly these are the basic tenets, I have been to plenty of shows and clinics where this does not happen with some horses...but surely, shouldn't that be the goal?
                www.specialhorses.org
                a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
                  There is no rule. I've asked her about 10 times about this over the last 3 years, and she always sputters "Yeah well, buy the book." She doesn't know the rules and apparently none of the other walking horse people do either because they never are forthcoming with any rules. So they either don't exist, or the judges don't care and don't enforce them anyway.

                  There "might" be rules in the lite shod devisions, but I've been told there are none in the padded divisions. So I would think some people here would be jumping at the chance to prove me wrong. So please do.
                  I don't cater to you on any of your tirades. You do not really want to know and even if I did tell you, you would say it wasn't true. This is your witch hunt not mine and if you want to know the rules I have instructed you as where you can obtain your very own copy of the NHSC rule book you just don't want to pay for your own copy.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho" View Post
                    Okay...maybe this is a difference in breeds, disciplines, whatever.

                    I have been taught that when a horse licks and chews the bit, it is relaxation and acceptance (and you can absolutely feel the difference, in the saddle, when they are not relaxed). Salivation is good because it means that the horse is relaxed through the poll and jaw, and not stuck or resistant or in pain, but accepting. When I'm done riding, my horse's back (I hope!) is relaxed, he's relaxed (though maybe ready for a roll), and by his stance and his eye you can tell whether it has been a positive session. I can understand that it "high gear" - racing, a jumping course, a difficult test, barrels - whatever - that a truly competitive horse gets on a high - but still - you can tell the difference between a good high and a bad one.

                    So - asking for enlightenment - what do these horses look like after the ride? Are they willing to take the bit the next time you tack up? Go into the arena? Start their work in a positive frame of mind? because if they are, then I would say that it's working.

                    So can someone tell me? I will add, that although I ride dressage, and supposedly these are the basic tenets, I have been to plenty of shows and clinics where this does not happen with some horses...but surely, shouldn't that be the goal?

                    I have heard the same thing about the chewing and saliva means that the horse has accepted the bit and is supposed to be relaxed. I have also heard that is why so many people in dressage like to put salt in the mouth to make the horse "foam" and appear as if he is happy in the mouth.

                    I have never had a horse not take the bit. Most horses will even lower their heads for the handler to put the bridle on.

                    Comment


                    • Ah, and so it is settled. There is NO RULE on bits and anything goes. Thanks for clearing that up.

                      Comment


                      • Put SALT in their mouths? WHOA NELLIE!!

                        I give Ted one peep before the bridle, and one peep afterwards, and I always clean the bit and bridle after use. If I gave him salt, he'd refuse!
                        www.specialhorses.org
                        a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

                        Comment


                        • From TWHSA's site: http://www.twhsa.com/Forms%20and%20D...SARulebook.doc

                          Would these rules, then, apply only to breed shows?
                          <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

                          Comment


                          • The only thing I have found is that 9.5 is the maximum for shanks....that is all. Correct me if I am wrong because I am too cheap to pay anything to an association that is made up of fat men over 40 riding 2 year olds! OOPS that was my outside voice wasn't it? HA HA ME BAD
                            The rider casts his heart over the fence,
                            the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

                            –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ChocoMare View Post
                              From TWHSA's site: http://www.twhsa.com/Forms%20and%20D...SARulebook.doc

                              Would these rules, then, apply only to breed shows?
                              No. Only NHSC rules apply

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by europa View Post
                                The only thing I have found is that 9.5 is the maximum for shanks....that is all. Correct me if I am wrong because I am too cheap to pay anything to an association that is made up of fat men over 40 riding 2 year olds! OOPS that was my outside voice wasn't it? HA HA ME BAD
                                Well, then you really don't want to know.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
                                  Ah, and so it is settled. There is NO RULE on bits and anything goes. Thanks for clearing that up.
                                  You are so laughable.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Nun Ya View Post
                                    Well, then you really don't want to know.
                                    You do realize that you are the one being difficult here, dont you?

                                    I have no dog in this fight. I do the boring 'ol hunter thing, well I did, right now I just pay for food and farrier work.

                                    I was honestly wanting to see the rule, but you get all snarky with anyone who asks.

                                    If you know the rule just post it or send me a PM that is fine.

                                    I am really just curious.

                                    Gosh, why do some things have to be so difficult?

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                      You do realize that you are the one being difficult here, dont you?

                                      I have no dog in this fight. I do the boring 'ol hunter thing, well I did, right now I just pay for food and farrier work.

                                      I was honestly wanting to see the rule, but you get all snarky with anyone who asks.

                                      If you know the rule just post it or send me a PM that is fine.

                                      I am really just curious.

                                      Gosh, why do some things have to be so difficult?

                                      As I said earlier IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW pm me and I will talk with you about the rule. The person I have a problem with is A2 and that is only because I know her agenda. I do not get "snarky" with everyone who asks

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                        I do not know any place that in the non-breed hunter jumper world that a kimberwick is industry standard. Not even close. They are VERY frowned upon by the hunter jumper world.

                                        Breed show people, sure. But not the hunter jumper world. Do a search in the H/J section.



                                        Someone asked what all the rings on the original bit were for, I have to wonder that too. Do you suppose it is just to look way cool or something? Instead of a boring long shank with a single ring on the end.
                                        I really don't want to get involved in the off-topic arguments, but I saw this and wanted to put in my 2 cents.

                                        FWIW, I started riding h/j, but switched early on to eventing. When I started at the local h/j barn, as a 5/6 year old, I wasn't taught balance, holding on with your legs, light contact, all that jazz...we were put on barn sour lesson ponies, in pelhams, kimberwicks, twisted wire, whatever it took to keep the ponies under control for the too-green riders, and we careened around the ring. Not a very subtle way to ride, but hey, if you didn't get bucked off or ran away with, you were doing something right, right? My first pony, when my parents bought him, was in either a pelham or kimberwick (don't remember which one, trainer wouldn't teach what bit did what- I didn't even know how to do the curb chain). As soon as I took him on and he got out of the lesson program, and out of the harsh bit, he started doing wonderfully.

                                        Sorry, I rambled a bit, my point was that those bits in the h/j world might not be popular, and it might not even exist in trainers who are actually qualified to train (mine was not). But it's definitely there.

                                        Comment


                                        • To further DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho", the licking and chewing also indicates a relaxed jaw. The horse accepts contact and is light in the mouth.

                                          When a horse's mouth gapes, it is beacause they are avoiding pain...not by relaxing. They can't get away from those long-shanked curbs on the tongue and bars...which also poke them in the palate if they have high/narrow ports. With a jointed mouthpiece, you get pinching of the tongue and sometimes a "nutcracker" effect on the palate.

                                          A shank multiplies the force transmitted through the reins (on a solid mouthpiece, slightly different action on a jointed mouthpiece). The reins can appear to be held lightly, while a ton of force is acting on the mouth. This is the concept Western Pleasure works on. The lightest touch of a rein is transmitted to the horse's mouth...enabling the rider to maintain a long, loose rein and still achieve proper contact.

                                          While it is true that the bit is only as harsh as the hands using it...it must be remembered that the same amount of contact on a shankless bit is multipled many times by the shanked variety.


                                          There are all kinds of ridiculous bits on the market...the truth of it is, you shouldn't need any of them if you know how to ride properly. Likewise, if you know how to ride properly, you can probably ride effectively and kindly in most any bit.

                                          I recognize that a curb bit is a better choice for saddleseat "frame"...the action is better suited to that horse's way of going. I also recognize that for many riders, the shanks are mostly decorative (like in a lot of WP). If you need 14" shanks to ride your horse...you belong on the ground.
                                          Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

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