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So did Satan himself design this bit, or just one of his lackeys?

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  • Right, which is what I thought from my admittedly unscientific analysis of what the bit was doing. Raises up in the mouth and puts pressure where? - looks like only corners of the lips, not bars, from the rotation.

    Now, that would be for a straight bar, the chain is a little different - because it's broken the way it is, it can't act like a normal fulcrum, if I'm thinking of it correctly, because it would be movable/collapsible if you will.
    Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

    Comment


    • Does it look to you like the rider is trying to get themselves back over the horse's center of gravity? Becuase that's sort of what it looks like to me - they are still behind it, yet not as far as they would be if they sat up?
      Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post

        Now, that would be for a straight bar, the chain is a little different - because it's broken the way it is, it can't act like a normal fulcrum, if I'm thinking of it correctly, because it would be movable/collapsible if you will.
        It will still exert the same pressure (whatever pressure is exerted by the hands on the reins, x the leverage effect) but it will be distributed differently between the mouth and poll.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
          Does it look to you like the rider is trying to get themselves back over the horse's center of gravity? Becuase that's sort of what it looks like to me - they are still behind it, yet not as far as they would be if they sat up?
          So sit way back and then slouch so the horse doesn't tip over?

          Comment


          • I think the sitting way back is a saddleseat style of riding - and then when the horse elevates in front they slouch forward almost like you would if you were riding a rear, to keep the balance slightly forward still. Just a guess from what I see in the pictures.
            Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post

              ALL disciplines have things that look/sound horrible and are difficult to understand. Suspend your judgement for awhile and see if you can understand - trust me, an open mind is worth it.
              I don't think my mind is ever going to be open enough to buy whatever line of BS someone uses to justify a chain mouth, 12" shank curb bit used with very heavy pressure. And yes, I've seen that set-up used. I think a *little* bit more than 7lbs of pressure is being put on the horse's mouth there.

              Crappy horsemanship is crappy horsemanship, and sticking the kitchen sink into a horse's mouth isn't okay just because your horse doesn't trot. There are plenty of good trainers and riders who don't need this type of crap to get a good gait out of a horse.

              I had a BNT arab trainer actually admit to me once that he rode his hunters in a bike chain and draw reins because he was lazy and it took too long to get the same look with a smooth snaffle. I wish more people could just be honest like that instead of coming up with stupid reasons why they need the 'kitchen sink' bits to get the same results other people can get without them.

              FWIW yes, I own gaited horses and no, they don't need shanked bits to gait well.

              Comment


              • Oh don't get me wrong - I'm not defending the practice per se, I'm just trying to understand it myself and was hoping we could have a useful discourse as to what the bit actually *did*.

                I don't own gaited horses, and have only ever ridden some TWH's that were camp trail horses (as far as my TWH experience goes) - so I'm just hoping that some people who do weigh in and explain how the bits are used and what they think the action is
                Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                  Sure, okay, so it puts a lot of pressure on the poll - on that point we agree. Course, most of the time when you put pressure on a horse's poll they raise their heads Which makes sense right - direct opposition to pressure is usually a horse's first response.
                  Actually you'll find poll pressure results in lowered lead carriage, unless it has a gag action (sliding mouthpiece) which = raising. Lots of the long shanked bits have a sliding mouthpiece. You'll notice the riders' hands are all very high to raise the head too, and AFAIK the horses are trained in overchecks and sidechecks to raise the head as well. Naturally they come from very "upheaded" breeds too.

                  Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                  So, on the saddleseat horses that you showed, are those walkers? Because those don't look like the pictures that A2 showed us - wondering if there's a different culture there.
                  all the same to me - very long shanked bits, polka dotted patent leather and bridlepaths a mile long!
                  ----------------------------------------
                  PSSM / EPSM and Shivers Forum
                  http://pssm.xanthoria.com/
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                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by europa View Post
                    You see, at those times when the U.S. Department of Agriculture can spare an inspector to attend a Walking Horse competition, violations can be 10 times as numerous as when the industry regulates itself. In 2006, with USDA on hand to oversee industry inspectors, the entire event unraveled.

                    This year, with inspectors hired by show management conducting the examinations, HSUS observers watched horses react in pain upon inspection and still be allowed to compete. Handlers held horses during inspections in a manner prohibited under federal regulation. Numerous other regulations were repeatedly violated. Despite a promise to limit the number of handlers in the warm-up area, as many as seven people tended to a single horse as the competition neared an end.



                    READING COMPREHENSION= F
                    The "entire event" in 2006 did not unravel. The show management canceled the stake class, not the Government. Further, my horse showed in several classes in 2006, Western and English, and showed in the championships, fully sound and fully compliant.

                    Where are you getting your data about seven people tending to a single horse? We have to get groom armbands for every groom we bring in, and we are limited to how many grooms can go in with each entry. The fact is that the Celebration was extremely strict this year; even though the USDA allows videotaping of DQP inspections, the Celebration made us sign a form waiving that right. And the USDA usually allows a competitor to call his own vet if there is a dispute in inspection. This year, we had to sign a form waiving the right to our own vet and the only governing vet was the vet hired by the Celebration. So, the fact is that we went through enormous hoops to get horses in the ring, at our own risk, waiving the right to videotape for our own protection of what was happening in inspection.

                    Where are you getting your data that horses that reacted to palpation and were clearly showing signs of pain were allowed to compete? You are saying that with the USDA present and watching the DQP inspections, along with HSUS observers, that they were deliberately passing horses that were in pain? I find that hard to believe.

                    Shoes were pulled on winning horses, and hooftesters were used to check for soundness. The fact is that while there were tickets written for violation of the HPA, those people who showed (and one of our horses did show in AOT class) went through enormous hoops to have their horses sound and in compliance with the HPA. The hooftester is extremely controversial because while it can identify an unsound horse, it cannot measure intent. Part of the whole inspection process is differentiating between a normal scar or knick or sole bruise vs those that are deliberately inflicted. It is not illegal to have a scar or sole bruise; but it is illegal to put them there deliberately. The hooftester just says there is a reaction; it cannot prove that someone deliberately sored the horse. Maybe this can give you an authentic look inside what TWH competition is really like.

                    As for the bits, I was trained by a TWH trainer that taught us how to check the horse's mouth and tongue after every ride to make sure there were no sores. I've never ridden in an elevator bit, but we do ride in shanked bits and serious TWH horseman and women are taught how to appropriately fit a bit, apply contact to a bit, and ride a show performance with a shanked bit. There are some people that yank horses mouths terribly, but most people work to put and keep a good mouth on their horses.

                    This anti-TWH rhetoric gets tiresome and it is offensive to those of us who show sound and in compliance with the HPA--and in humane bits.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TouchMeKnot View Post

                      This anti-TWH rhetoric gets tiresome and it is offensive to those of us who show sound and in compliance with the HPA--and in humane bits.
                      Except that this part of the conversation is not about those who show sound and in compliance with the HPA and in humane bits. Its about those who show in inhumane bits, and are abusive to the animals. That isn't rhetoric. Discussing abuses in specifics is not rhetoric.

                      Rhetoric: From Wikipedia: "...rhetorical arguments, as in politics or even justice, do not make use of demonstrable or tested truths, but resort to fallible opinions, popular perceptions, transient beliefs, chosen evidence or evidence at hand (like statistics), which are all properly called commonplaces as they help establish a commonality of understanding between the orator or rhetor and his/her audience."

                      We ARE making use of deomonstrable and tested truths. These are not fallible opinions, popular perceptions, transient beliefs, chosen evidence or evidence at hand. Discussing the details of the practices of correct bit use and incorrect bit abuse is reasonable and specific. Marginalizing this conversation by injecting a different and reasonble (it can be argued) kind of TW showing and practice from the abuses we are discussing is out of context and disingenuous.

                      Carry on.
                      Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Small Name Trainer aka SNIT! View Post
                        ....don't even get me started with the h/j worlds use of a a kimberwick to control un schooled horses so little kids who know no better can crank them around a ring or over fences even......just because it is considered industry standard does not make it right...
                        I do not know any place that in the non-breed hunter jumper world that a kimberwick is industry standard. Not even close. They are VERY frowned upon by the hunter jumper world.

                        Breed show people, sure. But not the hunter jumper world. Do a search in the H/J section.



                        Someone asked what all the rings on the original bit were for, I have to wonder that too. Do you suppose it is just to look way cool or something? Instead of a boring long shank with a single ring on the end.

                        Comment


                        • My guess would be that it is a training bit and you can change where you attach the reins - higher ring for less curb action, lower ring for more curb action.
                          Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                          Bernard M. Baruch

                          Comment


                          • Well I just tried to post a ton of really scary pics from that photography site Katarine linked to but none of my links worked. It just loaded the home page on every one. Darn it!

                            But - if you go and look at Sat. morning and night and Friday night, you can find that 5 ringed bit in use on several horses. One of them even has additional shank on top of the 5 rings! It must be 14" long!!

                            And tons of pics of mouths gaped open. One dude riding that must be 350 lbs. on a little 2 year old. The horse looks like it should ride the dude.

                            Lots of screwed up people in that "world."

                            And NO, there are no BIT RULES at all in the TWHBEA that I know of. If I'm srong, somebody correct me. I'd love it if there were. Anything goes apparently.

                            Comment


                            • I am going to say one thing then I am done with this conversation.

                              It is like the fundamentalist Islamic Terrorists....the muslims need to clean up their own issues. If the sound TWH people don't see and acknowledge that there is a PROBLEM in their area of riding then nothing will happen. If we offend you for not doing or acknowledging this then so be it. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

                              If the whole world is holding a microscope on the TWH community it can only help.......and you have nothing to lose if you are doing things the right way.

                              Anyone is welcome to see any horse on my property anytime as I have nothing to hide. Innocence is it's own best defense.

                              Just the fact that these bits exist and are in use points to a PROBLEM to me. HMMMMMM
                              The rider casts his heart over the fence,
                              the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

                              –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post

                                And NO, there are no BIT RULES at all in the TWHBEA that I know of. If I'm srong, somebody correct me. I'd love it if there were. Anything goes apparently.

                                You are wrong. But if you want to know about the rules all you have to do is call up
                                the NHSC and they will gladly send you your very own copy of the rule book for $5.00.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
                                  Well I just tried to post a ton of really scary pics from that photography site Katarine linked to but none of my links worked. It just loaded the home page on every one. Darn it!
                                  Right click on the photo, and choose "properties." If you double click on the link in "Location" and copy it, it gives you a direct link to the photo.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Nun Ya View Post
                                    You are wrong. But if you want to know about the rules all you have to do is call up
                                    the NHSC and they will gladly send you your very own copy of the rule book for $5.00.
                                    Well then the bit rules are crazy lax. Allowing that kind of shank in a show horse doesn't do much to support the idea that the TWH industry is all about the horses, does it?

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Nun Ya View Post
                                      You are wrong. But if you want to know about the rules all you have to do is call up
                                      the NHSC and they will gladly send you your very own copy of the rule book for $5.00.
                                      One would think that someone who has said they are done with this thread twice that would come back and post would actually provide the wording of the rule, since they are saying there is one.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                        One would think that someone who has said they are done with this thread twice that would come back and post would actually provide the wording of the rule, since they are saying there is one.
                                        There is no rule. I've asked her about 10 times about this over the last 3 years, and she always sputters "Yeah well, buy the book." She doesn't know the rules and apparently none of the other walking horse people do either because they never are forthcoming with any rules. So they either don't exist, or the judges don't care and don't enforce them anyway.

                                        There "might" be rules in the lite shod devisions, but I've been told there are none in the padded divisions. So I would think some people here would be jumping at the chance to prove me wrong. So please do.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by europa View Post

                                          Just the fact that these bits exist and are in use points to a PROBLEM to me. HMMMMMM
                                          Exactly. If the horses are so light and obedient, why use these bits in the first place? If the reins are held only taught enough to keep the reins from flopping (yeah right) then why the 10 or 12" shanks? Why not go in a short shanked curb, or a snaffle? I ride my horses with contact also. You can see that in my profile pic. I hate flopping reins. I think they're more annoying and distracting to a horse than maintaining some contact. But I sure as bleep don't do it on a 10" shank.

                                          But only to be fair, in the photos, I did see 2 snaffles on big lick horses, and several short shanked curbs. Of course we don't know what the mouthpieces are like, but at least their riders aren't using 10" of shank that they don't need.

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