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So did Satan himself design this bit, or just one of his lackeys?

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  • Originally posted by Nun Ya View Post
    Oh there we go. Heres another I used to do it until I seen the light.

    Yes please hang out in the grooming areas or the warm up ring and tell me you see these things. Get real.
    I believe you have misinterpeted my post. Kindly reread it. I'm not neccesarily opposed to Big Lick horses, having shod them for years. There is nothing inherantly wrong with shoeing horses with pads, IMO, if you subtract the emotional reaction of people that don't know what they are looking at. The problem I have is with pressure shoeing and other forms of soreing. I have seen Plantation horses that were more sore than the shod up horses.

    As for "getting real" I am the real thing, this is what I do for a living. My line of work has taken me to the training barns, not just the shows.
    Sticking to my guns and religion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q4P4...eature=related
    Dutch Denson CF REMF'er

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Auventera Two View Post
      Read for comprehension girlfriend. The site has been locked down since then. You now need a user ID and password to log in and view the eproofs.

      And yes, there are other photographers but I've never found any that publicly post their eproofs the way that photographer did. Or if there are proofs, they are poor quality, or the thumbs are too small to be able to see much.

      Well, well here we go again!!! I knew sooner or later your bullcrap would start up again. What ------don't you have a life?
      Just got back from the Big Celebration, where we went in five classes, and got good ribbons in all of them. Also the compliance rate for the show was 97%, and there were almost 5,000 horses shown.
      Also, byt the way....why do you feel the need to try and log on to the web site of the photographers that take pictures of TWH's. Avalon is not the only one that is at the Celebration----but I'm not sharing their names. WHY---because you have no business going on their sites , and then coming on here with your same old crap. The best picture we have of my husband coming down the ramp into the big oval. If I knew how to post pictures I would post it. His mares ears are up, her eyes are happy, and can just tell how much she loves what she is doing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
        errrr ... then he mentioned padded shoes, fiberglass shoes bolted onto the horse's hooves. .
        These are known as "Instant Walking shoes" and are a training device used to judge how much weight a big lick horse can carry. The are an aluminum tank that liquid can be added or subtracted from and are bolted to a light shoe nailed to the foot. I'm not sure how you would bolt any appliance to a horses foot.
        Sticking to my guns and religion
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q4P4...eature=related
        Dutch Denson CF REMF'er

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Txfarrier11 View Post
          I believe you have misinterpeted my post. Kindly reread it. I'm not neccesarily opposed to Big Lick horses, having shod them for years. There is nothing inherantly wrong with shoeing horses with pads, IMO, if you subtract the emotional reaction of people that don't know what they are looking at. The problem I have is with pressure shoeing and other forms of soreing. I have seen Plantation horses that were more sore than the shod up horses.

          As for "getting real" I am the real thing, this is what I do for a living. My line of work has taken me to the training barns, not just the shows.
          Farrier,
          You are quite right about the pressure -shoeing that is done by some trainers in the flat-shod division. It stinks, but A2, screams and rants about the padded, the padded, over and over again. She is clueless what the hell she is talking about

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sdhaurmsmom View Post
            Or, God itself, hopefully, would!!!
            Yeah, you would hope- but there doesn't seem to be any smiting going on because of poor choices!

            I still don't understand being SO impatient that you would forgo training/understanding and jump right to "hmm, I bet a bicycle chain would do the trick". Regardless of breed or discipline. There just has to be a better way to get the desired result!
            (And I consider myself an impatient person!)
            Spell-checked prior to transmission. All errors occured en route.

            Comment


            • Please don't shoot me (pretty please)

              but

              none of those bits (the ones ON the horses, not the ones in the pictures sans horse) appear to have a chin strap so, while I see that the bits look really horrible, I'm not sure they really get all that much leverage on the horse's mouth without anything to pivot on.

              That being said - I could be totally wrong and just not looking closely enough.
              Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cordial View Post
                Just got back from the Big Celebration, where we went in five classes, and got good ribbons in all of them. Also the compliance rate for the show was 97%, and there were almost 5,000 horses shown.
                That means 150 horses not in compliance with the most basic and rudimentary requirements (which don't seem to include not using bits as torture devices).

                Just sayin'.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                  none of those bits (the ones ON the horses, not the ones in the pictures sans horse) appear to have a chin strap so, while I see that the bits look really horrible, I'm not sure they really get all that much leverage on the horse's mouth without anything to pivot on.
                  the fulcrum is the mouthpiece of the bit - any part of the shank sticking out below and/or above creates leverage.

                  Here are the three classes of lever with illus showing how they work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever
                  ----------------------------------------
                  PSSM / EPSM and Shivers Forum
                  http://pssm.xanthoria.com/
                  ----------------------------------------

                  Comment


                  • I disagree...

                    I have never used a mikmar.. or much beyond a basic snaffle, or a rubber pelham for hunting... any way,

                    To me, the two are VERY different. One works on leverage, one does not. One has links that are designed to lay flat, widely distributing pressure across the tongue, while laying low to not interfere with the palate.

                    The other?

                    Is just a chain, designed to cause pain. No thought to anatomy.. or humanity. More rings added for more leverage, you could yank the hell out of a horses face.


                    Originally posted by Eyemadonkee View Post
                    minus the 5 rings, that bit isn't all that different than this one: http://www.mikmar.com/bit-pages/Watson-snaffle.html

                    either way, not something i want in my horse's mouth!
                    APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

                    Comment


                    • Xanthoria, thanks for the link, but I don't think you get exactly where I'm coming from.

                      On a traditional curb, the curb chain engages when the rein is pulled back, which puts pressure on the chin, nose and poll.

                      I would hope that most people here know, that if you forget to put on the curb chain (not that I would EVER do a thing like this) the bit can go almost straight back to horizontal and the horse won't even notice (unless he/she is laughing at you for being such an idiot)

                      Now, that's only if it slides on the top rounding (as most curb-type mouthpieces do), if that is fixed (e.g. the cheekpieces are stiff enough to avoid any flexing when the mouthpiece is rotated and the cheekpiece does not slide around the rounding where it is attached), then there would be a leverage effect, but not on the mouth or the chin but rather on the poll.

                      There are a lot of posts here that seem to think that the "poor horse's jaw is agape with the pressure of the bit" but that doesn't seem to fit with what I'm seeing the mechanism of the bit doing (again, please don't shoot me - not a TWH person nor a fan of "bitting up")

                      Looks like it would put pressure on the poll, yes, but not on the chin/mouth, no.

                      I'm not touching the bicycle chain bits with a 10' pole, but in terms of the shanks on some of the other bits, I believe that's the action as it would occur.

                      A2, some of the pictures that you posted of the youngsters - they don't even look like they have those long shanked bits in their mouths - they look like hacks to me - I'll get my bifocals on and look more closely, but you'd think you'd see gaping or even a mouth crinkle if the horses mouths were being that badly brutalized.
                      Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                      Comment


                      • Hey folks, west coast horsewoman here,,,any bit, any shank, any uneducated hand can cause undeserved pain in a horse's mouth/jaw/brain/life....don't even get me started with the h/j worlds use of a a kimberwick to control un schooled horses so little kids who know no better can crank them around a ring or over fences even......just because it is considered industry standard does not make it right...but the time to fight these battles is when it pops up in front of your face and the horse it is being inflicted on mutely looks around for help...at YOU. Put your arguments to work for the horses,,, they deserve it. Do not wait for permission to help stop ignorance....offer a clinc to 4-hers, open your barn for an open house to the public...inspect the tack room of a trainer before you send your horse there!!!!!!! Action in a positive manner will help some horse some day....heated arguments on the internet only cause others to think badly of you because even if your discussion is on the side of the horse, you are still treating another animal horribly......humans are animals too...and we all deserve some respect for just surviving all this soo far!!!!! Do some thing to help change the horses life, think globally (even if none of us will ever ride at the Olympics) but treat the problem LOCALLY!!! in your own barnyard, at the next show you attend....Please be proactive and help, don't just start another sh(^*&^^^t flinging contest. Find a show steward, find the show manager, stand in the aisleway and shout "stop mistreating that horse" and video tape it while it happens....don't just walk away. Any breed, any day, any event where the public is allowed. The horse deserves better.

                        Comment


                        • Okay, took a closer look - A2, I was wrong, they are in the horses mouths - helps when you can see the pictures more clearly.

                          BUT

                          What I see is a bit that is very high in the mouth, and not pulling back on the jaw at all, so instead, when engaged, is pulling the lips up, but not nutcrackering the jaw or indeed, pulling backward on the jaw much at all.

                          Not that I'm arguing that these bits are safe/humane/legal/ought to be the best thing since sliced bread/anything else...

                          But I'm just not seeing the action that you guys are seeing.
                          Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                          Comment


                          • well without the curb the effect on the curb groove is indeed not there, but the leverage can still put a lot of pressure on the poll - more the higher (and lower) the shank extends above (below) the mouthpiece.

                            the pressure on the lips, bars, tongue etc here is coming from the direct force of the reins, plus or minus any gag action if the mouthpiece can slide up and down along the shank at all.

                            Having said all that, a lot of the saddleseat horses in long shanked bits like this I've seen online do indeed have curb chains! Curb hooks and chains can be added to just about any curb bit.

                            here's one and another etc etc
                            ----------------------------------------
                            PSSM / EPSM and Shivers Forum
                            http://pssm.xanthoria.com/
                            ----------------------------------------

                            Comment


                            • Sure, okay, so it puts a lot of pressure on the poll - on that point we agree. Course, most of the time when you put pressure on a horse's poll they raise their heads Which makes sense right - direct opposition to pressure is usually a horse's first response.

                              So, on the saddleseat horses that you showed, are those walkers? Because those don't look like the pictures that A2 showed us - wondering if there's a different culture there.

                              I believe someone had a story of learning to ride saddleseat that was taught to have hands so light that they shouldn't snap a thread even prior to ever getting on a horse. Dunno where that is (probably in the depths of COTH somewhere) but somehow that seems relevant.

                              Please understand - not arguing any particular point here, in the wrong hands even a fat-rubber-mullen-mouth snaffle can be brutal - just trying to get a handle on the gasping and would like to analyze this in a more logical fashion. No yelling - just discussion
                              Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                              Comment




                              • TWO year olds...
                                http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5zz3K1FcB7U

                                Be sure to have the sound on!
                                APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

                                Comment


                                • this years Celebration pics. Frothing mouths, but no gaping mouths, agonized eyeballs, etc...look at the horses after they are untacked in the Saturday WGC class- no terror, no despair: just hot hardworking horses.

                                  http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/def...=dspProofs.asp

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                                    So, on the saddleseat horses that you showed, are those walkers? Because those don't look like the pictures that A2 showed us - wondering if there's a different culture there.
                                    No, those weren't walkers. TWH aren't shown in double bridles. TWH are their own little world.

                                    Comment


                                    • That's what I thought, they didn't look like walkers (which was the subject of the discussion at the time).

                                      I know nothing about either of those worlds - so education is a must.

                                      And before anyone gets anyone's knickers in a twist, read the studies on effective pressure in dressage horse's mouths in a snaffle sometime. What was it, 7 lbs? That's a lot of mouth-numbing nerve crushing damage to those delicate mouths that we so need to preserve.

                                      ALL disciplines have things that look/sound horrible and are difficult to understand. Suspend your judgement for awhile and see if you can understand - trust me, an open mind is worth it.
                                      Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                                        Sure, okay, so it puts a lot of pressure on the poll - on that point we agree. Course, most of the time when you put pressure on a horse's poll they raise their heads Which makes sense right - direct opposition to pressure is usually a horse's first response.
                                        Pressure on the poll, counter pressure on the mouth. The difference is that the bit rises up in the mouth rather than being pulled down hard into the bars.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by katarine View Post
                                          this years Celebration pics. Frothing mouths, but no gaping mouths, agonized eyeballs, etc...look at the horses after they are untacked in the Saturday WGC class- no terror, no despair: just hot hardworking horses.

                                          http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/def...=dspProofs.asp
                                          Totally subjective observation.


                                          http://www.shaneshifletphoto.com/Pro...-002-08WHC.JPG

                                          looks gaping to me.

                                          Can SOMEONE explain what the deal is with the slouching? I don't get it.

                                          Comment

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