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So did Satan himself design this bit, or just one of his lackeys?

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  • Originally posted by Xanthoria View Post
    Actually you'll find poll pressure results in lowered lead carriage, unless it has a gag action (sliding mouthpiece) which = raising. Lots of the long shanked bits have a sliding mouthpiece. You'll notice the riders' hands are all very high to raise the head too, and AFAIK the horses are trained in overchecks and sidechecks to raise the head as well. Naturally they come from very "upheaded" breeds too.

    all the same to me - very long shanked bits, polka dotted patent leather and bridlepaths a mile long!
    Your ignorance is showing. Stepping in here because in your post #135 you actually posted a photo of Kris Cole, a Morgan trainer friend of mine from the Tampa Charity Horse Show, of which I sat on the executive board and I helped to organize and run for over a decade until I gave up my amateur status.

    Please do not bring MY friends or MY horse show into a conversation and portray them in a negative light when they do not pertain at all to the subject . You are comparing apples (walking horses) to oranges (trotting horses) just because they are fruits (saddle seat riding).

    Walking horses have sliding mouthpieces because a bobbing "head-shake" is desireable (Nun-Ya, please correct me if I am wrong) and I don't think walking horses are traditionally trained in overchecks or sidechecks due to this fact. Only one bit is used, never a double bridle.

    The other saddle seat breeds that TROT as their most important gait (saddlebreds, Morgans, Arabians, Freisians, etc.) are shown in a double bridle, are often trained in side or overchecks and are do not show in sliding "elevator" type curbs.

    You keep referring to "full bridles" ....the type of bit shown in the original post is NEVER used as part of a double bridle and would NEVER be used on a trotting breed.

    Please refrain from continuing to post photos of trotting horses in full bridles as you are making yourself look ignorant.
    Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
    Bernard M. Baruch

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Nun Ya View Post
      Since we are on the subject of bits.
      People are freaking out over the length of the shanks but I was wondering .......
      What's the point in a double bridle?? Why would you need 2 bits on any horse??
      There are in fact 2 bits in the mouth with two sets of reins being used right??
      OHCH - that just seems like a lot going on at one time.

      Nun-Ya, the snaffle bit is used to raise the horse and to steer, the curb is simply to bring his nose in and flex at the poll. It can be a lot going on in the horse's mouth and the ability to match what kind of snaffle with what kind of curb for each horse and then teach the rider to ride to that is an art in itself.

      Dressage horses in full bridles are ridden more "on the bit" with stronger contact and feel which is why their bits are so regulated. You see fatter bits, shorter shanks and all smooth bit surfaces.

      Saddle seat horses in full bridles are ridden more "off the bit" where you want the horse to back away from contact. Contact should be as minimal as possible, but with just enough to take the slack out of the reins as we don't want the curb shanks swaying in the horse's mouth. Each horse is individual and has his contact preferences which can often vary from rider to rider.

      Examples videos of some of my lesson horses (some of the videos are long enough so you can hear how I teach the students to gently work the bits):

      Saddlebred gelding who likes soft contact on the curb but a firmer contact on the snaffle. In this video he is wearing an "arch port" curb which is just slightly more arched than a mullen mouth. The bars are wrapped. His bradoon is a smooth single-jointed snaffle. He would occasionally gape his mouth and not wear his happy ears, we have since changed his curb to a segunda mouth with shanks that swivel independently of each other. Since he likes soft contact, if the rider accidentally gets in his mouth on one side, the shank on that side can play back a little without affecting the mouthpiece. It is a custom ordered bit.
      http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/c...t=100_2549.flv


      Arabian gelding who likes a medium-soft contact and contact must be as still and steady as possible in order for him to relax his jaw. He is wearing a curb bit that has a roller in the port. His snaffle is (gasp) a bike chain snaffle. The bars on the curb are wrapped with latex.
      http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/c...nt=0524081.flv

      Morgan show horse (not a lesson horse) who actually prefers a bit of a hold on his mouth. Firm, but very quiet hold. He is in the same curb bit as the saddlebred above but the curb shank allows less than 1/4 inch of vertical "play" on the mouthpiece so the horse can lift it with his tongue if he wants. He is also wearing a bike chain snaffle. He is our English Pleasure horse but this video was taken when his shoes were pulled and my niece wanted to try him in splint boots behind (why, I don't know, but I humored her) and he never relaxed his neck and jaw and the stiffness carried through from his jaw to his shoulders.
      http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/c...t=100_2737.flv

      I HAD a really nice video of him from January and I accidentally deleted it, but this photo (taken from the January video) is how he tends to travel when shod and he relaxes enough in the jaw to be able to pick up his shoulder.
      http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...romvideo-1.jpg

      To hear how I teach someone to work a full bridle, this is my old 24 year old saddlebred with Cushings that I put down two weeks ago (my old man, I miss him so!) he was the best for teaching reinsmanship as he would give immediate feedback without getting nasty or ugly about it. Ride from my curb instead of my snaffle? OK, I will carry my head wayyy down and lean on the bit. This is the same bridle the Arabian wears. Not the prettiest video as the rider is not able to place his head, but good to see the reaction to the reins and to hear my instruction. The rider really wasn't too tight on the curb, just kept letting the snaffle get way too long.
      http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/c...nt=0524083.flv

      OK, now I am zipping up my flame suit for the flaming I will get for using bike chain bits which I like because they conform to any shape mouth. I have not cut a mouth with one, nor will I use them on riders who overplay or see-saw the horse in the mouth. I want the riders to develop "feel." with as little touch as possible. My riders should not carry the horses' heads for them, they simply give squeezes and twitches to reins to remind the horse to carry his own head. Flame away at me, I am putting myself out there in the hopes that it may help Nun-Ya's question and possibly also help some people understand that bits are not cruel, the hands that use them are.

      off my soapbox

      edited - - - I forgot one other way to ride in a full bridle. As if I am not going to get flamed enough already, I probably shouldn't post this video of my 15 year old niece, it will probably end up on Fugly's blog or in some Idiot Hall of Shame.....don't try this at home kiddies....
      http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/c...nt=083108b.flv

      when not goofing off, they look like this in the shows
      http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/c...2007Champ2.jpg
      Last edited by Amwrider; Sep. 13, 2008, 01:56 AM.
      Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
      Bernard M. Baruch

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      • One day I will own a TWH and I will show it with ruby high heels like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
          And just 'cause I would like to finish the thought - if I'm using a double (or a pelham) I was always taught to put my weakest finger against the curb rein because of the magnification of the output. For exactly the same reasons.

          YES! All your fingers on your snaffle, your curb goes between your fingers.

          For most people in the English world it is between the pinky and ring finger. Because of the longer shanks on saddle seat full bridles, most riders will use an even weaker finger placement on the curb - between the middle and ring finger, so you only have two fingers on the curb.
          Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
          Bernard M. Baruch

          Comment


          • Those of us who are really talented can ride with 4 reins - one between each finger.

            Comment


            • [QUOTE=Amwrider;3514846] I am putting myself out there in the hopes that it may help Nun-Ya's question and possibly also help some people understand that bits are not cruel, the hands that use them are.
              [QUOTE]

              I liked your videos and listening to your teaching. Thanks.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by s|c2 View Post
                Those of us who are really talented can ride with 4 reins - one between each finger.
                But can you do that and type at the same time?
                Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.
                Bernard M. Baruch

                Comment


                • Cool, another TWH trainwreck!

                  All I've got to say is just 'cuz most of y'all aren't capable of riding with anything but a big fat snaffle, doesn't mean some of the rest of us can't. Oh, and two sets of reins really isn't that difficult- saddleseat instructors teach little kids (like under 8 years old little) to use them properly.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                    Your ignorance is showing. Stepping in here because in your post #135 you actually posted a photo of Kris Cole, a Morgan trainer friend of mine
                    yes (if it was a pic I linked to) to demonstrate that a curb chain is used, nothing more, in saddleseat comps.

                    Originally posted by Amwrider View Post
                    Please do not bring MY friends or MY horse show into a conversation and portray them in a negative light when they do not pertain at all to the subject . You are comparing apples (walking horses) to oranges (trotting horses) just because they are fruits (saddle seat riding).
                    To me it's all the same - long shanked bits, upheaded carriage. That was my point. Public perception of saddleseat is all painted w the same long-shanked brush. Don't take it personally.
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                    • Xan, who is this "public" that you speak of - the "public" of COTH?

                      'Cause most people in the public that I talk to that aren't horsey don't give a d*mn about long shanked bits or anything else (because they have never even noticed) unless they are super PETA types in which case all horses ought to be free and allowed to roam the country wild.

                      Thank you for sharing those videos Amwrider - I can't view them in full today because my connection is crappy at home - but I will take a look at them on Monday when I'm back to work.

                      When you talk about working a horse "off the bridle" or "off the bit" you're really talking about "behind the bit" in a dressage sense - you don't want them pushing their mouths into contact, correct? I think the idea is (and correct me if I'm wrong) as a utilitarian pleasure mount the horse should work super-lightly and be very easy to ride - in all saddleseat disciplines. In other words - the goal should be to make the horse a pleasure to take out to the park and show off in front of your friends - isn't that where the discipline originated?
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                      • amwrider - thanks so much for the descriptions (and sorry if I put saddleseat and TWH together...but do I get points for knowing what team penning is?). I can understand the physics part of it, but not ever having ridden that discipline, I don't know what the goal is (I barely know what the gaits are).

                        I understand contact in the dressage sense, and I see now, that as you progress up the dressage levels, it is very, very different from what you are asking. So I'm glad I asked the question!

                        I still maintain I doubt I'll ever ride in a double bridle...I won't even use baby spurs. I feel that unless I can truly maintain an independent seat, and always have my horse like a bowstring or slinky between the aids, I have no right to add refinements via "artificial" aids, if for no other reason than I don't want to use them improperly, as a crutch, which would be unfair to the horse.
                        Last edited by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"; Sep. 14, 2008, 11:58 PM.
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                        • Originally posted by shakeytails View Post
                          Cool, another TWH trainwreck!

                          All I've got to say is just 'cuz most of y'all aren't capable of riding with anything but a big fat snaffle, doesn't mean some of the rest of us can't. Oh, and two sets of reins really isn't that difficult- saddleseat instructors teach little kids (like under 8 years old little) to use them properly.
                          Years ago, when I was a kid, plenty of kids rode hunters in pelhams with both reins. Not long ago I suggested at our barn that the lesson/leased horse being jumped in a pelham with roundings could be ridden with both reins instead. The trainer's reply was that that was too much for a young rider to handle. What, kids today aren't as competent as kids when I was a kid?

                          Shakeytails, when you say two sets of reins do you mean a double bridle? I ask because at the saddle-seat barn up the road the kids ride with two sets of reins but only a single, snaffle, bit. Sorry, I can't say how their bridles are rigged up, I haven't been able to do a close inspection, but would like to know.
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                          • Original Poster

                            Originally posted by Xanthoria View Post
                            yes (if it was a pic I linked to) to demonstrate that a curb chain is used, nothing more, in saddleseat comps.



                            To me it's all the same - long shanked bits, upheaded carriage. That was my point. Public perception of saddleseat is all painted w the same long-shanked brush. Don't take it personally.
                            Then you're completely ignorant of both disciplines, the walkers and the trotters.

                            If you sore a trotter, you'll have a lame horse and get DQed. The "upheaded carriage" is natural for trotters, it's called a natural high head carriage with a neck tied high on the body. In the show ring it is exaggerated or accentuated, but not to extreme points.

                            As for long shanked bits.. so you do hate all the western events as well, in which a horse over a certain age is required to go in a leverage bit? Some reiners I've seen have some lonnng shanks. Guess they're horrible too.

                            If you're going to hate on trotters or walkers, at least do it for better reasons than their bits or head carriages. How about soring, pressure shoeing, etc, in walkers? How about gingering and tail cutting or tail braces in trotters? Nah. That's okay. It's those dang BITS that are the worst!!! Yeah. Okay.

                            Not saying trotters are totally innocent, as mention of gingering and such. But don't lump them in one big group with walkers, because they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

                            That's like saying lower level dressage and snaffle futurities are the same because it all involves snaffles. How silly.
                            Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

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                            • Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
                              Years ago, when I was a kid, plenty of kids rode hunters in pelhams with both reins. Not long ago I suggested at our barn that the lesson/leased horse being jumped in a pelham with roundings could be ridden with both reins instead. The trainer's reply was that that was too much for a young rider to handle. What, kids today aren't as competent as kids when I was a kid?

                              Shakeytails, when you say two sets of reins do you mean a double bridle? I ask because at the saddle-seat barn up the road the kids ride with two sets of reins but only a single, snaffle, bit. Sorry, I can't say how their bridles are rigged up, I haven't been able to do a close inspection, but would like to know.
                              Kiddies and adult beginners alike are usually taught how to handle the curb and use the full bridle by using a single snaffle but two reins. One acts as the curb by going through a running martingale, the other is free to act as a snaffle. Much kinder to the horse than putting a complete novice in a full bridle. This is probably what you saw.

                              Example below from a 6 and under walk/trot academey class:

                              http://www.howardschatzberg.com/Proo...7-008-08BR.JPG

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
                                Shakeytails, when you say two sets of reins do you mean a double bridle? I ask because at the saddle-seat barn up the road the kids ride with two sets of reins but only a single, snaffle, bit. Sorry, I can't say how their bridles are rigged up, I haven't been able to do a close inspection, but would like to know.
                                Most of the time our horses work in a snaffle bit with two sets of reins- the "curb" rein goes through a running martingale. (They are not worked daily in a double bridle- I think my mare only wears one to show right now, during the off season she might wear it once every week or two.) Occasionally we'll use a German martingale and one rein, but for the most part everybody learns to use two reins very early on in their lessons. Except for academy classes (for novice riders not wearing a full suit), our horses must be shown in a double bridle so any child that is ready to move up from academy classes must use two reins on a double bridle.

                                Comment


                                • That just hurts to look at it. Can't imagine what the poor horse would go through.
                                  Life is great when you can hug a horse.

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                                  • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                                    When you talk about working a horse "off the bridle" or "off the bit" you're really talking about "behind the bit" in a dressage sense - you don't want them pushing their mouths into contact, correct? I think the idea is (and correct me if I'm wrong) as a utilitarian pleasure mount the horse should work super-lightly and be very easy to ride - in all saddleseat disciplines. In other words - the goal should be to make the horse a pleasure to take out to the park and show off in front of your friends - isn't that where the discipline originated?
                                    When I hear "behind the bit" I also think behind the vertical, and that's not desireable - that's a horse that is avoiding contact/avoiding work/sucking back. Saddle seat is looking for self-carriage with the lightest of contact with the bit. The most "foreign" aspect for me of getting on a dressage trained horse is that "on the bit" feels like the horse is lugging.

                                    As to the origination, yes, that's pretty accurate

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by CA ASB View Post
                                      When I hear "behind the bit" I also think behind the vertical, and that's not desireable - that's a horse that is avoiding contact/avoiding work/sucking back. Saddle seat is looking for self-carriage with the lightest of contact with the bit.
                                      This is what we strive for in walking seat as well. It was interesting to hear Amwrider tell one of her students in the videos, as the horse dropped his head, squeeze like a sponge and then let go. It reminded me of my best trainer, who would say "bump the bit and let off, bump and let off," always getting back to the lightest contact. Bump meant a "quick light touch" much like her "squeeze the sponge" command.

                                      Comment


                                      • I had the "talk" with my trainer yesterday..he illustrated the "bump, squeeze, release" and then I had to practice that for my lesson using my legs only to turn, and bump or squeeze the rein to slow Tyranna.

                                        She is being trained to accept leg contact and that makes her speed up at this point, as she was not ridden with calf contact before..so contact to her means "yippee full speed ahead".

                                        She responded very well to the squeezing the rein and settled down and is learning to relax more with leg contact.

                                        Good lesson yesterday and she is doing very well. on a different note - I got my dressage letters made and now my arena is 99 percent complete! Only 2 years of work on my part and some hired help, but I finally have flat footing, letters, rails..ooh I am very happy!!!

                                        Comment


                                        • I do have a question -

                                          Tyr is my first TWh so don't know much about how most are trained.

                                          My question is: why aren't TWHs trained to leg contact? I know they are used to the seat and some are trained to weight pressure in the stirrups, push down with heel and seat bones and they will stop.

                                          Just wondering if there is a reason they aren't trained for lower leg/calf contact? Putting contact on Tyr would shoot her forward at a very fast pacing gait..very uncomfortable for my back. When she slows - she step paces and the trainer has gotten a good dog walk out of her a few times. We aren't that concerned with gait, just teaching her to accept contact with the leg and to travel straight at this point and learn to turn without disengaging her hind. Sometimes she turns and it's like a bus that has been cut in half - not pleasant at all. But for a greenie, I'm happy with her lovely temperment and her progress.

                                          I really hope to take her to some TWH dressage shows, especially now that I know there is a lady in Pine Mt. that hosts them from time to time. I have to say that Tyr is one of the most tolerant and forgiving horses of my stupidity I have ever owned..after all, it is me that is learning and she goes along with whatever I unknowingly ask her to do..hence my lessons..lol.. I do wonder if she thinks she has a "stupid owner" and just sighs and puts up with me. I love her for that attitude though.

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