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So did Satan himself design this bit, or just one of his lackeys?

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  • Unlike the double, the action of the snaffl e
    aids in the development of lateral suppleness.
    The snaffl e bit also is quite adequate to develop
    collection and to make the horse honestly
    “through” (working from his hindquarters, over
    the back, and into the bit.) However, the action
    of the curb does promote the highest degree
    of engagement, the utmost articulation of the
    joints of the hind limbs that is possible from an
    individual horse. This is the “polish” that the
    double bridle brings to the training, and thus
    why in the past horses were not permitted to
    compete in a double bridle until fourth level,
    also known as the “pre FEI” level.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

    Comment


    • Originally posted by amastrike View Post
      Word, sistah. My horse loves his HS KK double-jointed dee ring (to the point that he opens his mouth and grabs it from me). There is no noseband on my bridle, and I absolutely will NOT put a flash or a crank on my horse (and it is incredibly difficult to buy a black bridle without either or both of those--I ended up buying mine in pieces to get what I wanted). If my horse is opening his mouth, it's because I'm doing something wrong, and I need to fix the problem, not hide it. And in a roundabout way, I view some resistance as a not-bad thing: If the horse is resisting, it means the horse CAN resist, which means when he does what I want, he's doing it because he is CHOOSING to do it, not because there's no choice. Of course, resisting means I'm going to ask again and again and again, but he has the option of saying NO every single time. I want to work with my horse, not against him. As far as rollkur... I have no use for it, and absolutely no respect for ANYONE who does that to a horse..
      Great point. I want my horses to have an opinion. I want them to question me, or tell me they aren't happy, or they don't agree. They have a free will and spirit the same as any other living organism. I want them to always have the option of telling me what they think or what is bothering them.

      That's how I figured out my endurance horse has ulcers. If I had cranked her nose in with a big bit and whaled on her with spurs and a whip to DEMAND that she stop spooking and acting like a fool, I'd have had no clue that there was a medical problem. But I've always paid attention to what she's telling me.

      Comment


      • Regarding using an 8" shank and then going back down to a 6" or 4" shank, this is a remedial situation, not the standard progression of starting horses in the bridle. We start with the snaffle bit , which communicates turning, slowing, and stopping. The horses are voice- trained at the same time for easy and whoa, so that very little bit pressure is needed. Once those basics have been established, as well as other basics of seat and leg pressure, the horse transitions to the curb bit. When the horses goes into his gaiting training, he is usually worked on a 4" or 6" inch shank to start with, and it is a matter of feel as to what the trainer selects based on where the horse is at in his training, the structure of the horse's mouth, and the responsivness of the horse. For example, a thinner mouthpiece is more severe; however, some horses, such as my horse Moe, has a very thick tongue and couldn't tolerate a thick or wrapped mouthpiece. So, he couldn't work in a thick mouthpiece, which is less severe because it spreads the pressure over a larger area. So, the structure of the horse's mouth is important as well as his attitude and responsiveness. Obviously for young horses, we have lesser expections of what they can achieve, whereas with a horse that has been in training for several years and is seasoned, we will have higher expectations of appropriate carriage and headset.

        A snaffle bit puts pressure on the corners of the mouth and possibly the tongue or roof of mouth, depending on the mouth piece and the number of joints in the mouthpiece. The more joints the mouthpiece has, the more severe the mouthpiece is. The curb bit puts pressure at different places in the mouth, but also applies pressure under the chin and at the poll. The longer the shank, the more leverage (pressure) applied to these places. The horses are worked gradually in these training bits (short shanks) and progressively trained to eventually work in a frame where the head is set. It is the same mechanism as a dressage horse using the curb bit in a double bridle.

        The situation I described of using an 8" shank is a remedial situation example. For example, our horse Flash has been showing for 3 years, brought up slowly and with great care. He was being ridden on a 6" inch shank bit, and went crazy a few months ago in the show ring. He got revved up and excited, and just ran through the bit and my husband had no control. Flash can gait at very high speeds and is a compact horse with quick movements, high energy and high motor, even when appropriately worked down before a show with an amateur rider. My show partner, who has more bitting experience than I have, tried a couple of different bits to reestablish communication and contact, but Flash got unruly and stopped respecting the pressure of the bits we chose. Therefore, he moved to an 8" shank to clearly communicate to Flash what the mouth pressure meant. He also used appropriate release techniques, releasing the pressure on the bit when Flash responded in the desired manner. We've now moved him back down to a 6" shank now that communication has been reestablished, and Flash is respecting the bit. We also made a change in the mouthpiece. Selecting the mouth piece again depends on the structure of the horse's mouth, and trial and error.

        Why does a horse need a 6" inch shank vs. a 4" inch shank? It just depends on the horse. Most trainers use as short a shank as needed, because as I mentioned before, people generally look for a horse with a good mouth, and it is very easy to ruin a good mouth. However, you can't really know what shank length suits a finished horse best until you work with that particular horse. We typically use 6" inch shanks in our show horses, but that doesn't mean that a horse comes along that needs a different length.

        We've never had need to ride a horse on more than an 8" inch shank. If the horse is showing that little amount of respect for the bit, he needs to go back to basics in training and work forward again or finish remedial training before getting back in the show ring. We bit the horse in a bitting rig, and teach him to release to pressure and work in a frame by using side reins, just like any other discipline. I can't change the fact that some people show in longer-shanked bits; most of the horses at the Celebration were well-prepared, especially in the amateur classes. Most of the amateurs rode their mounts very well. I wasn't impressed with the preparation of the horses in the trainer's classes at all. Just because a trainer rides a particular way does not mean that everyone in the industry approves it or that it represents the state of a finished horse. There were several horses that tied very high that were rooting in the bridle and their noses were in the air, and they weren't showing the long, nodding headshake that should be part of the walking horse's gait. I didn't think they should be tied but judging at the Celebration is highly political.

        If you have never ridden a high-motor, fully conditioned, high energy show horse that gets excited in the ring, you might not be capable of comprehending why remedial bit work is needed to reestablish communication and keep the rider safe while doing so. We make liberal use of both carting and work in the bitting rig so that the horse learns to respond to pressure consistently without being confused by rider mistakes and inconsistencies. So, we make every effort to reestablish communication without using excessive force, and eventually, the horses respond to the small adjustments of height of the hands and squeezing of the fingers.
        Last edited by TouchMeKnot; Sep. 12, 2008, 03:54 PM.

        Comment


        • "That's how I figured out my endurance horse has ulcers. If I had cranked her nose in with a big bit and whaled on her with spurs and a whip to DEMAND that she stop spooking and acting like a fool, I'd have had no clue that there was a medical problem. But I've always paid attention to what she's telling me. "

          I think you overestimate your ability to bully a horse through the use of a tool.

          I've ridden horses who were bullied through medical pain and for the most part they went straight up or down (had one that literally would lay down because he had been pushed so hard). Took a lot of rehab to convince him that it probably would serve him well to NOT lay down once the issues were corrected while he was in my care.

          So A2, you advocate for no bit whatsoever and no shoes, it makes sense to me that you are completely outraged at the TWH industry. However, since most of the ODG's of dressage, including the Spanish Riding School of Vienna (arguably the most classical dressage of classical dressage) use(d) the double bridle (including this rather long shanked bit on this lovely fellow in capriole http://www.austria-trips.com/Vienna/...Reitschule.jpg) I think there might be a middle ground here for discussion...
          Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

          Comment


          • Um, that's why I said that my PERSONAL preference is to go bitless when possible. I've used bits on my horses and will do so again if the need should arise. What other people do is their business, as long as it isn't animal abuse.

            Comment


            • I have never ridden a saddlebred in a show ring (I've been on some, but that was riding other friends' horses). I have been on my boy at shows, and he is always pumped, since I believe he genuinely lies to compete. And he is also an OTTB, and I have been on him (once - I'm too chicken to do it again!) when I let him go full throttle on a trail. But we've never used anything but that snaffle.

              I don't think I'll ever use a double - largely because I'm dyslexic enough as it is, I can't imagine 4 reins.
              www.specialhorses.org
              a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues

              Comment


              • 4 reins isn't so hard - I have used a pelham with quite a few horses and it's not all that bad. It takes a little bit of getting used to, but it's like driving a stickshift, once you get used to it, it comes to you automatically.

                A2 - I wasn't arguing with you - I was just saying, I see where you are coming from Maybe I didn't put enough smilies to emote how I was trying to say it *laughing*

                Abuse is a difficult thing to measure - is a crop abusive? It can be, but there are times when it can save a horse's life.

                The tool itself isn't abusive, it's how it is used that is or isn't.
                Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                  "That's how I figured out my endurance horse has ulcers. If I had cranked her nose in with a big bit and whaled on her with spurs and a whip to DEMAND that she stop spooking and acting like a fool, I'd have had no clue that there was a medical problem. But I've always paid attention to what she's telling me. "

                  I think you overestimate your ability to bully a horse through the use of a tool.

                  I've ridden horses who were bullied through medical pain and for the most part they went straight up or down (had one that literally would lay down because he had been pushed so hard). Took a lot of rehab to convince him that it probably would serve him well to NOT lay down once the issues were corrected while he was in my care.

                  So A2, you advocate for no bit whatsoever and no shoes, it makes sense to me that you are completely outraged at the TWH industry. However, since most of the ODG's of dressage, including the Spanish Riding School of Vienna (arguably the most classical dressage of classical dressage) use(d) the double bridle (including this rather long shanked bit on this lovely fellow in capriole http://www.austria-trips.com/Vienna/...Reitschule.jpg) I think there might be a middle ground here for discussion...
                  I have been in Spain at the Spanish riding school and have seen those wonderful horses, but A2 probably wouldn't like them either as they have on a bit, shoes and a saddle. Go Figure

                  Comment


                  • Excuse me are we equating the Spanish Riding School with TWHs....I have heard everything now! PULEZ
                    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
                    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

                    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by europa View Post
                      Excuse me are we equating the Spanish Riding School with TWHs....I have heard everything now! PULEZ
                      EXCUSE ME....I was responding to the post about the Spanish horses, and she was talking about them using double reins.....I was just commenting on the fact that A2 wouldn't agree with her post. I said nothing about TWH's. But now that you bring this up, and I have seen both in a show ring (and you haven't) ......both breeds are magnificant. So before you start crap read the post ........!!!!!!!!!

                      Comment


                      • Um, actually the SRS is out of Austria - but no matter - they are unbelievable critters Classically trained and their riders are just amazing. I was stunned to see the polish on the crystal chandeliers (how DO they keep those clean in an indoor - that's a project that I want to see how they manage )

                        So okay, we have two separate schools of thought here - Dressage with the concept of starting in a snaffle and moving up to refinement, and TWH's with the same start, but then occasionally they will use a stronger shanked bit on a horse who is remedial for one reason or another. Anything outside of the 9" bit is illegal for showing, and the very very light use of hand is used in this tradition of riding.

                        Is that what I'm hearing?
                        Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                        Comment


                        • Sure - why not compare them? Since we're comparing different uses of a shanked bit? Comparisons mean - pointing out differences and similarities - a similarity is a shanked bit, differences include the double bridle and the goal of the SRS horse vs. the TWH in terms of how they move and what they request of the horse.

                          So they are different things, right? The classically trained dressage horse is attempting to meet one goal, the TWH another. Doesn't mean you can't draw comparisons between how they get to those goals. *frown*
                          Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by cordial View Post
                            EXCUSE ME....I was responding to the post about the Spanish horses, and she was talking about them using double reins.....I was just commenting on the fact that A2 wouldn't agree with her post. I said nothing about TWH's. But now that you bring this up, and I have seen both in a show ring (and you haven't) ......both breeds are magnificant. So before you start crap read the post ........!!!!!!!!!
                            Okay, so we'll hand out Reading Comprehension = F number 2 of the day!

                            I said that my PERSONAL PREFERENCE for my PERSONAL HORSES is to not ride with a bit, if possible. I do trail and endurance riding and also mounted patrol, and it just makes more sense for me to be bitless. I ride for long hours and my horses need to EAT along the trail. To make my horses pack a bit for 4 hours or 6 hours, or more is too much, in my opinion. My personal preference. Nothing more.

                            I happen to absolutely love the Spanish Riding School and what they have done. If you've paid attention to any of my posts over the years, you would know that. If I were still showing dressage or jumping, of course I would ride in a snaffle.

                            God you guys are so obtuse it's unreal.

                            Comment


                            • First, I have been to Vienna and I lived in Europe so don't assume you are the only person to have seen them.

                              I live in Blountville Tennessee so if you think I don't know what goes on with how MOST people with appalling horse skills treat their TWHs think again. Personally, I hate it as I really think the breed should be given a halo to deal with the people that they do.

                              Now...........having said that I am sure there are also wonderful people who love, own and train these horse but if they are using pads and such like the BIG LICKERS...............NOPE.

                              The way those horses have been forced to move is GROTESQUE and utterly unnatural. As my father said the first time he saw on go....that is a caricature!

                              POPCORN ANYONE?
                              The rider casts his heart over the fence,
                              the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

                              –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

                              Comment


                              • I'm sorry A2, are you addressing me? Perhaps you misunderstand where I'm coming from.

                                You have talked about not using a bit because:

                                As I said, I don't exactly agree with the double bridle because I personally prefer riding without a bit at all.
                                and
                                Great point. I want my horses to have an opinion. I want them to question me, or tell me they aren't happy, or they don't agree. They have a free will and spirit the same as any other living organism. I want them to always have the option of telling me what they think or what is bothering them.

                                I was simply saying - when one comes from this position, I can SEE where you would be outraged over the shanks on some of these bits. It's another way of saying "I getcha girl"

                                I pointed out the SRS because that particular picture had quite a large shank (though not nearly as long as the TWH shank) on the stallion in question. Thereby pointing out that not everyone who uses a shanked bit is looking for a shortcut/easy answer and I'm certain that those horses have the option of telling them what they think or what is bothering them - it's part of being a good horseman and is in general very important.


                                I think it would be wonderful if all people and all horses could go bitless, bridleless, saddleless, shoeless and all horses could be happy too! I'm not advocating for abusive treatment in the least. I'm simply trying to ask some questions in order to have some sane and rational conversations about it instead of the whole thread turning into a giant pissing match about whose discipline is better.

                                I'm not sure why it is so difficult to have a rational discussion when this subject is brought up. I'm interested in having it because I'd like to LEARN. And you certainly can't change anyone's mind by bullying them, so isn't it a good idea to LISTEN first?
                                Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Achterbahn View Post
                                  Um, actually the SRS is out of Austria - but no matter - they are unbelievable critters Classically trained and their riders are just amazing. I was stunned to see the polish on the crystal chandeliers (how DO they keep those clean in an indoor - that's a project that I want to see how they manage )

                                  So okay, we have two separate schools of thought here - Dressage with the concept of starting in a snaffle and moving up to refinement, and TWH's with the same start, but then occasionally they will use a stronger shanked bit on a horse who is remedial for one reason or another. Anything outside of the 9" bit is illegal for showing, and the very very light use of hand is used in this tradition of riding.

                                  Is that what I'm hearing?
                                  The Royal Spanish School of riding is owned by the King of Spain himself and is in JerezIe La Frontesce, Spain. The Horses that they raise ,train and exhibit are Andalusians----much the same as the Royal school in Vienna. We spent two days there and I will never forget the beauty of those wonderful animals. Sorry for the mix-up!

                                  Comment


                                  • Ahhh europa, I have too - lived there as well - perhaps we could have a sidebar as to where in europe you lived and for how long. I hope you weren't asserting that I was saying that I was the only one who had seen them - I was waxing lyrical about how incredible they were and my post was correcting cordial about the location of the SRS.

                                    I've seen bad things in the H/J , Dressage & Eventing worlds too (which are my worlds), but it doesn't make me want to stop all H/J & Dressage activities - it makes me want to understand it and change it from the inside - which is what I think people are doing in the TWH industry - albeit not as fast as we'd all like.

                                    But once again, the discussion was about shanked bits (and then later, the double bridle which includes a shanked bit), so we were discussing the mechanisms and in THAT regard, the comparisons are valid.

                                    I don't understand why you insist on inciting a riot - do you really think that is going to be helpful? When people yell at you, don't you just yell right back?

                                    It's only through sane and rational discussion that a mutual understanding can be had and real change can happen in the world.

                                    </soapbox>
                                    <disclaimer> I am not affiliated with the TWH industry in any way shape or form, I came here to discuss bits, their mechanisms and uses </disclaimer>
                                    Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                                    Comment


                                    • Ahhh cordial - I gotcha - yea, truly amazing creatures. I wanted to have an Andy as a partner, but have not yet had the opportunity - I love the baroque breeds (might explain my attraction to drafty-crosses )

                                      Okay, so back to the bits - did I sum it up correctly? Quoting myself here (man that feels weird)

                                      So okay, we have two separate schools of thought here - Dressage with the concept of starting in a snaffle and moving up to refinement, and TWH's with the same start, but then occasionally they will use a stronger shanked bit on a horse who is remedial for one reason or another. Anything outside of the 9" bit is illegal for showing, and the very very light use of hand is used in this tradition of riding.
                                      Confessions of a Wannabe Farmwife - my Blog

                                      Comment


                                      • No....unfortunately I have learned that those that protest the loudest and listen the least are ususally in bed with the offenders.

                                        I get very upset over the TWH plight....see I live smack dab in the center of it and the parties that seem to be hating the most on me KNOW IT. I am just waiting for them to say the PADDING and the torture contraptions and the mustards and not allowing the horses outside EVER is wrong. But alas I will not hear it as they blissfully ignore the abuses in their sport.

                                        I have ridden HJ all my life at many barns and in Europe and I haven't seen anything illegally done. I rode at nice places with nice people and horses that were well cared for. I know that abuses exist from evil people and if I see it I will say something. For instance if I saw someone poleing a horse I would speak up.

                                        I also take issue with the QH people who have their horses soo bulked up that they have ruined their metabolisms and breed back to horrible diseases to add bulk and muscle.

                                        I breed German horses and all mine are like children to me. I lived in Frankfurt for 2 1/2 years and my brother lives in Berlin so any chance I get I try and go back. Enough info on me.
                                        The rider casts his heart over the fence,
                                        the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

                                        –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by europa View Post
                                          First, I have been to Vienna and I lived in Europe so don't assume you are the only person to have seen them.

                                          I live in Blountville Tennessee so if you think I don't know what goes on with how MOST people with appalling horse skills treat their TWHs think again. Personally, I hate it as I really think the breed should be given a halo to deal with the people that they do.

                                          Now...........having said that I am sure there are also wonderful people who love, own and train these horse but if they are using pads and such like the BIG LICKERS...............NOPE.

                                          The way those horses have been forced to move is GROTESQUE and utterly unnatural. As my father said the first time he saw on go....that is a caricature!

                                          POPCORN ANYONE?
                                          No, I wasn't referring to you about not being in Spain, but to our horse trainer Expert...A2
                                          WE have flats-shod and padded horses both, and will continue to do so. We are not in Tenn. or in the South, but We love, and treat our horses like Royalty, I RESENT when people say that anybody that has a horse on pads is wrong. Boy, I wish I could take you and that MIss know it all and put you on a good, well-trained, and CLEAN padded horse. I would love to see your faces when you felt them gait...

                                          Comment

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