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Assaulting our rights to own and use horses:

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  • Originally posted by Devon'sGirl26 View Post
    T I can't even imagine the grief stricken bellows of the cows as their babies are taken away.
    Get yourself to a dairy, watch a dairy cow give birth and see that she couldn't give a damn.

    Get yourself out to ag country and see "big ag". Where I live and where my family is from, the farms are still "family owned" but not the old fashioned idea of farms, with chickens, a dairy cow and a few hogs. It's machine sheds and grain bins. BUT it's still family owned.

    Go see, instead of spewing misconceptions about the ag business and what it is, eh?

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      Originally posted by Devon'sGirl26 View Post
      Thanks for the info and I'll definitely watch that documentary when I get a chance. I skimmed through the debate between Singer and Posen briefly and but I'll have to read it more thoroughly later. Although I must say I'm no fan of Peter Singer.

      I tend to disagree with you the AR movement hurting family farms. Sadly family farms are disappearing and it's not because of the animal rights movement. You can blame CAFOs for that. After all they are the main competition of family farms. PETA, HSUS, and many other AR groups encourage people to buy meat from family farms, even though we'd much rather people not buy meat at all. Big AG is the main target of the AR movement and I can't imagine too many people on here are terribly distraught about that.

      I'm a firm believer that their is no such thing as humane meat or dairy. As long as the animal dies I have a problem with that. And at the end of the day the grass fed cattle go to the same slaughterhouse that all cattle go to. Dairy is even worse. I can't even imagine the grief stricken bellows of the cows as their babies are taken away. And don't even get me started on veal, which is as we all know is a by-product of dairy.
      I am a firm believer someone is pulling our legs here.

      I first thought 14-15 year old, now more like 12, as the one that wrote this gem:

      http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...re-harmed1.jpg

      No one today can be that misinformed, live in such an absurdly irrational imaginary fantasy land, not knowing any better how things work in this pretty little blue marble we happen to live on.

      Someone is taking us for idiots, don't fall for it, folks.

      Comment


      • you callin' me an idiot??

        Just kidding,

        You are probably right. 'nuf said on the subject....

        Comment


        • Bluey- You spend all of your time accusing those that are for animal welfare of being ARAs yet when you get an ARA in front of you (Devon's Girl) you dismiss them as fake...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Devon'sGirl26 View Post

            I tend to disagree with you the AR movement hurting family farms. Sadly family farms are disappearing and it's not because of the animal rights movement. You can blame CAFOs for that. After all they are the main competition of family farms. PETA, HSUS, and many other AR groups encourage people to buy meat from family farms, even though we'd much rather people not buy meat at all. Big AG is the main target of the AR movement and I can't imagine too many people on here are terribly distraught about that.
            I'd call this the most pig ignorant thing I have ever read, but that is an insult to pigs. We have a family owned and operated dairy. We couldn't exist without CAFO, because there is no way we could afford an acre of land for every 4 cows in our 500 cow herd, never mind the additional 500 or so heifers we raise. Our CAFO allows us to efficiently use the land we have to support our family and the 4 other families that rely on our business to keep food on their tables.

            You RARA/ARA types are so ridiculous, you laud the family farm and condemn the "factory farms" but you have no real knowledge about how modern family farms work. What powers that be arbitrarily decide what constitutes a "factory farm"? I know of several multigenerational dairies that milk several thousand cows. That is a family owning, running and putting their blood, sweat and tears into their farm.

            We streamline animal agriculture to create a system where each animal receives optimal care while balancing keeping food at costs Americans can afford, and keeping us in business.
            Originally posted by The Saddle
            Perhaps I need my flocking adjusted.

            Comment


            • Bluey -
              I am ashamed to say that your attached picture absolutely captured my feelings as a very intellectually bright college student in 1987 as I sat down and faced a quail on my plate that DID NOT COME FROM THE STORE; and, in fact, came from hippie roomates hippie organic farming parents who SHOT that little bird dead. Honestly, I had totally detached store meat from animals.
              I had never experienced hunting or farming, and I loved animals. Strangely, I grew up on the beach crabbing and fishing; and never fell apart over watching my grandma boil the crabs or helping her clean them.

              So, yes, it is within the realm of possibility to be fairly intelligent passionate human being and also be spectacularly ignorant -- ESPECIALLY about agriculture given how few people actually have ever set foot on a farm.

              How many people won't eat eggs from hens that have never laid eyes on a rooster, because they are convinced there's a baby bird in that egg?

              When veggie gardening became popular recently -- many people were very curious as to how many plants would grow out of each seed.

              The people who believe meat comes from the store are much scarier than the vegans in my opinion.

              Originally posted by Bluey View Post
              I am a firm believer someone is pulling our legs here.

              I first thought 14-15 year old, now more like 12, as the one that wrote this gem:

              http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...re-harmed1.jpg

              No one today can be that misinformed, live in such an absurdly irrational imaginary fantasy land, not knowing any better how things work in this pretty little blue marble we happen to live on.

              Someone is taking us for idiots, don't fall for it, folks.
              Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

              Comment


              • Rustbreeches -

                I am not a fan of the CAFO / Factory Farming model; but I certainly don't blame the family farmers. I would like us to get to a place as a country where you and all family farmers have the option to make more money and a higher profit raising fewer animals on grass IF that is what you want to do. I am not a farmer, but I am really glad I have now experienced living on a farm. And, I am really glad that I have seen the challenges of trying to just manage an "old school" diverse little farm w/ free range birds and sheep -- and predators.

                And, the biggest challenge to trying to have the kind of farm that I prefer -- is nonsensical government regulation at every level. You and I might differ on our idea of a farming ideal; but I think we both would agree that something is terribly wrong consumers are paying top dollar for "organic foods" at Whole Foods that are imported from China.

                My brother-in-law WAS an umpteenth generation farmer in Ohio. Brother in law had a cutting edge hog operation - he kept the sows and piglets until they shipped off to the next grower. He went to all kinds of conferences and gave lectures. He was doing everything reflecting the latest research at the time. He also kept winning boars - who got to live in a separate climate controlled building - in pretty large pens; and he collected semen for AI. The boars were all named and loved -- most prized boar was "cupcake" named by their young daughter. So, super nice guy who cared about his animals was doing what all of the Ag school research said was great AND what the USDA wanted him to do per the agricultural policies at the time. Raising animals inside in confinement to keep them safe with floor grates and automated manure management & lagoons to keep them clean and cages to keep the sows from smothering the babies, and automated feeders dispensing optimized feeds and precise antibiotics for maximal weight gain. Busting his a$$ he could run his operation w/one other long time employee also busting a$$ and could feed his family w/ his wife working full time off farm. He was land rich and cash poor, and at a certain point after 50 or so years of hard manual labor and more and more aches and pains and a torn rotator cuff and hurt back and a daughter to send to college; he decided to sell that farm; which in addition to the hog operation included lots and lots and lots of very fertile crop farmland. It was sold to a developer, and now it's a subdivision -- probably w/ most of the homes foreclosed at this point!

                So, I am interested in farm policy; because I do not think we ae getting it right when good farmland is now a subdivision full of foreclosures. It should have been a viable and affordable option for a proven farmer like you to spread those cows out on the farmland as far as the eye can see -- IF you or somebody like you wanted to do that.

                In real estate terms, that subdivision was NOT the "highest & best use" of that land.


                Originally posted by rustbreeches View Post
                I'd call this the most pig ignorant thing I have ever read, but that is an insult to pigs. We have a family owned and operated dairy. We couldn't exist without CAFO, because there is no way we could afford an acre of land for every 4 cows in our 500 cow herd, never mind the additional 500 or so heifers we raise. Our CAFO allows us to efficiently use the land we have to support our family and the 4 other families that rely on our business to keep food on their tables.

                You RARA/ARA types are so ridiculous, you laud the family farm and condemn the "factory farms" but you have no real knowledge about how modern family farms work. What powers that be arbitrarily decide what constitutes a "factory farm"? I know of several multigenerational dairies that milk several thousand cows. That is a family owning, running and putting their blood, sweat and tears into their farm.

                We streamline animal agriculture to create a system where each animal receives optimal care while balancing keeping food at costs Americans can afford, and keeping us in business.
                Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  Originally posted by ldaziens View Post
                  Rustbreeches -

                  I am not a fan of the CAFO / Factory Farming model; but I certainly don't blame the family farmers. I would like us to get to a place as a country where you and all family farmers have the option to make more money and a higher profit raising fewer animals on grass IF that is what you want to do. I am not a farmer, but I am really glad I have now experienced living on a farm. And, I am really glad that I have seen the challenges of trying to just manage an "old school" diverse little farm w/ free range birds and sheep -- and predators.

                  And, the biggest challenge to trying to have the kind of farm that I prefer -- is nonsensical government regulation at every level. You and I might differ on our idea of a farming ideal; but I think we both would agree that something is terribly wrong consumers are paying top dollar for "organic foods" at Whole Foods that are imported from China.

                  My brother-in-law WAS an umpteenth generation farmer in Ohio. Brother in law had a cutting edge hog operation - he kept the sows and piglets until they shipped off to the next grower. He went to all kinds of conferences and gave lectures. He was doing everything reflecting the latest research at the time. He also kept winning boars - who got to live in a separate climate controlled building - in pretty large pens; and he collected semen for AI. The boars were all named and loved -- most prized boar was "cupcake" named by their young daughter. So, super nice guy who cared about his animals was doing what all of the Ag school research said was great AND what the USDA wanted him to do per the agricultural policies at the time. Raising animals inside in confinement to keep them safe with floor grates and automated manure management & lagoons to keep them clean and cages to keep the sows from smothering the babies, and automated feeders dispensing optimized feeds and precise antibiotics for maximal weight gain. Busting his a$$ he could run his operation w/one other long time employee also busting a$$ and could feed his family w/ his wife working full time off farm. He was land rich and cash poor, and at a certain point after 50 or so years of hard manual labor and more and more aches and pains and a torn rotator cuff and hurt back and a daughter to send to college; he decided to sell that farm; which in addition to the hog operation included lots and lots and lots of very fertile crop farmland. It was sold to a developer, and now it's a subdivision -- probably w/ most of the homes foreclosed at this point!

                  So, I am interested in farm policy; because I do not think we ae getting it right when good farmland is now a subdivision full of foreclosures. It should have been a viable and affordable option for a proven farmer like you to spread those cows out on the farmland as far as the eye can see -- IF you or somebody like you wanted to do that.

                  In real estate terms, that subdivision was NOT the "highest & best use" of that land.
                  Some years ago, maybe 8 or 10 now, the chemical industry, that keeps tabs of all they produce and sell to all kinds of markets, had numbers showing that for the first time, more chemicals used in agriculture were sold for residential uses, that is houses, lawns, parks and golf courses than for any other use.

                  Those that love to bash farmers and the fertilizers and insecticides, herbicides and fungicides and all that they use are now barking at the wrong target, that should be themselves and the houses they nuke at the sight of a crocroach or flea, lawn fertilizing and other such chemical uses.

                  While there is much marketing of all kinds of products to everyone, including farmers, that are licensed to use them and inspected as how they keep and use them, it is a bit scary the many products that any one Joe Doe can buy at Home Depot and use, maybe misuse on their driveway to keep a couple of weeds at bay and no certification or inspection needed.
                  We are as exposed to those products directly in our homes and where we walk to as much as we are to, if any, any minuscule part per million residue in any food they may still linger after being applied to fields.

                  Back to animal rights extremists, that one poster here comes across as a caricature of an animal rights extremist follower, with all that talk, that any sensible grown-up knows "it ain't so".
                  That is why I think it is making fun of us here with that kind of animal rights extremist over the top, everyone knows better talk.
                  No one over 6 years old could be THAT clueless.

                  I think that finding fault with those that provide us with the nice living we have today is a first world problem, a place for discontents with their idle lives to focus their energy.
                  Too bad that there will be unintended consequences, that will eliminate so much that gives us happiness in our lives, like our interaction with our animals, that we are losing in these battles to keep our rights to use them, as the natural, renewable resource they are in this world, for all in this world, including the human species.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
                    the problem is that it seems many on this board put every animal charity in the "extremist" group.

                    Yes. And giving more credence to extremists than they are worth.

                    Extremists look for the vulnerable and prey on them. Then there are those people who believe extremists can actually accomplish what they are so maniacal about. Extremsits are not normal thinking humans. Why would anyone follow them so closely--either those that agree with them or those that are afraid of them.

                    Majority rules folks. Extremists are small factions full of perverted thought patterns.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                      Yes. And giving more credence to extremists than they are worth.

                      Extremists look for the vulnerable and prey on them. Then there are those people who believe extremists can actually accomplish what they are so maniacal about. Extremsits are not normal thinking humans. Why would anyone follow them so closely--either those that agree with them or those that are afraid of them.

                      Majority rules folks. Extremists are small factions full of perverted thought patterns.

                      When those extremists are directing some of the largest, richest non-profit groups around and using those riches to lobby for their agendas, you dismiss them so casually at your own risk.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                        When those extremists are directing some of the largest, richest non-profit groups around and using those riches to lobby for their agendas, you dismiss them so casually at your own risk.
                        Yeah, well I don't believe the largest and richest are being directed by extremists. Unless of course the largest and richest have the lemming syndrome. Which I also don't believe.

                        Just an aside: hippies in 1987??? They missed the movement by about 20 years. Hippies were a product of the 1960's. I know. I was there.(but not a participant!) Although I did support "peace, love, & heal the world" stuff for a while.

                        Comment


                        • We are not going to change anyone's mind on this board.

                          I live in a state where horses are a multi-billion (with a b) business. They aren't going anywhere in any hurry.

                          I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading somewhere that there are more horses now than 100 years ago.

                          I LIKE to get my meat all processed and ready to cook. Once I looked something in the eye, I couldn't eat it.

                          I think most people care about the welfare of animals, even the extremists. What we need to do is put them all on a horse, at least once.


                          Jmho

                          Carry on.
                          Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Devon'sGirl26 View Post
                            . My point is that right now no animal rights organization is making any attempt at all to stop horseback riding because we have much more pressing issues to worry about.

                            Then explain why HSUS sued to stop the 3 day eventing at the 96 Olympic games; claiming eventing was "cruel and abusive" to horses.



                            The majority of animal rights activists have pets.

                            That just makes them hypocrites. What they (and you) are telling the world is, "Do as I say, not as I do".



                            Again none of this is a secret.

                            Yes, we know it's not a secret. I was among the victims of a violent PETA attack. I know exactly what AR activists are like.



                            Again, no one is suggesting we set domesticated animals free.

                            So I guess the ALF and SHAC are just figments of our imagination.


                            I certainly didn't let any organization make up my mind for me.

                            The goal of the animal rights movement is not to rid the world of domestic animals.

                            Yes, it is. The goal of the AR movement is to eliminate all human contact with domestic or wild animals. "Enjoyment at a distance." is one quote by Wayne Pacelle. Wildlife watching is an enjoyable pastime. But it is one activity among many. What the AR movement seeks is the abolishment of all animal agriculture (which, by the way, includes horse sports). They don't say that on their benign little websites but they sure as hell say it in front of legislatures and judges. What aspect of the 14th Amendment confuses you?


                            That is not what animal liberation is. This is the definition of animal liberation: the idea that the most basic interests of non-human animals should be afforded the same consideration as the similar interests of human beings.

                            No - the goal is to assign animals the same rights as human beings. Which means that cute horse you own? It's a slave. Slavery is against the law - therefore the ownership of a horse or dog is slavery. In the simplest of terms, that is their goal.

                            In other words: If you wouldn't eat a child don't eat a cow. If you wouldn't skin a human alive don't do it to a snake. If you wouldn't want your child taken away from you, don't take away the children of others. The list goes on.

                            Exactly. Mixing the animal welfare aspects with animal rights - to gain support among animal welfare advocates who don't realize they've been duped into supporting a very extreme, often violent, agenda.

                            If you would not ride your child, you would not ride a horse.
                            Oh, and by the way - don't tangle with folks like me on the "small family farm". I'm one of those small diversified farms the AR groups like to pimp as their own creation.

                            We're every bit a part of agriculture as large or medium sized farms of all kinds. And every single attack on agriculture, by AR groups - negatively affects us too. Try getting a small processing plant opened to serve the small family farms and see how fast the locals oppose it - using AR propaganda.

                            Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
                            Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                            Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                            -Rudyard Kipling

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                              Yeah, well I don't believe the largest and richest are being directed by extremists. Unless of course the largest and richest have the lemming syndrome. Which I also don't believe.

                              Just an aside: hippies in 1987??? They missed the movement by about 20 years. Hippies were a product of the 1960's. I know. I was there.(but not a participant!) Although I did support "peace, love, & heal the world" stuff for a while.
                              Read JSwan's answer for a better response that I could ever muster.

                              By the way, I too am one of those small farmers, but choose to market thru commercial channels, not local ones, because it fits what we do best.
                              If we were living by a very large city, that may permit a more niche marketing for some of our products.

                              "Agriculture" is not all the same, there are many and very diverse producers involved and you know, it is going to take all to keep food on the pantries for all.
                              Too many of us today take our aboundant, varied, safe food for granted.
                              Has not always been so and it may not always be so, if we don't take care agriculture keeps being viable.
                              Try not to kill the goose laying our golden eggs of plenty, in your hurry to find fault in what and how others do what they do.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                                hippies in 1987??? They missed the movement by about 20 years. Hippies were a product of the 1960's. I know. I was there.(but not a participant!) Although I did support "peace, love, & heal the world" stuff for a while.
                                Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                                Comment


                                • This whole thread seems very paranoid to me. People have to scratch and fight for rights in the country...forget about a cow getting anything.
                                  “If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?”
                                  ? Rumi






                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                                    Yes. And giving more credence to extremists than they are worth.

                                    Extremists look for the vulnerable and prey on them. Then there are those people who believe extremists can actually accomplish what they are so maniacal about. Extremsits are not normal thinking humans. Why would anyone follow them so closely--either those that agree with them or those that are afraid of them.

                                    Majority rules folks. Extremists are small factions full of perverted thought patterns.
                                    Well, as my husband said about Islamic extremists in the Middle East, "we've labled them as extremists, but that's not at all how they view themselves".
                                    Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                                    Comment


                                    • The Humane Society Legislative Fund is now running a new TV ad opposing one of the most anti-animal politicians in Congress. Our ad exposes the terrible voting record on animal cruelty issues of Representative Steve King, (R-Iowa).

                                      Please watch the TV ad today, and make a generous donation to support ads like this in races across the country. <http://action.humanesociety.org/site/R?i=XQry8q0PIatG8Zq7x8QjPw> Your gift will help us fight back against anti-animal politicians like Steve King—and support our work to pass state and federal legislation to help animals.

                                      In addition to fighting anti-animal politicians this election season, we're also working to support our humane leaders in Congress and re-elect lawmakers who are standing up for the values of kindness and compassion. And we’re fighting for stronger animal protection laws, such as banning spectators at animal fights, ending invasive research on chimpanzees, and cracking down on puppy mill abuses.

                                      Politicians need to know that voters care about the humane treatment of animals, and will hold them accountable for being out of step with mainstream values. Remember, there are only 22 days left…and the animals can’t wait. With your help, we'll give the animals a voice this Election Day. <http://action.humanesociety.org/site/R?i=YrKbCPRJ2HDTN4UFaOnSDQ>


                                      Thank you for your support, and for all you do for animals.

                                      Sincerely,

                                      mike_sig_blue.gif<http://action.humanesociety.org/site/../images/content/pagebuilder/14359.gif>

                                      Mike Markarian
                                      President
                                      Humane Society Legislative Fund


                                      And yet..they support Michael Vicks and have stated he would make a great dog owner...the man never uttered one word of remorse after torturing so many of his fighting dogs..
                                      The Elephant in the room

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
                                        We are not going to change anyone's mind on this board.
                                        ...
                                        I LIKE to get my meat all processed and ready to cook. Once I looked something in the eye, I couldn't eat it.
                                        I don't think the goal is to CHANGE anyone's mind per se; but I can go through my own life and very clearly see different points in time where I learned something that made me question my beliefs and judgments about the world and people in it. And, yes, my mind definitely changed.

                                        Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
                                        I LIKE to get my meat all processed and ready to cook. Once I looked something in the eye, I couldn't eat it.
                                        Exactly!

                                        I think the vast majority of Americans agree; which is probably why the American supermarket meat dept. looks the way it does -- unlike countries where whole animal carcasses and often live animals ready for choosing are on display at the butcher. I guess the vast majority of Americans are okay w/ looking seafood and especially lobsters in the eye; though I imagine the number of Americans who have purchased a live lobster to eat is relatively small and a lot of headless shrimp are sold.

                                        "Don't Eat Aything With a Face" is the Vegan mantra. They realize that once they look something in the eye, they can't eat it; so they don't. I respect that conviction.

                                        Personally, I was much more blissful when I was ignorant and thought meat "came from the store". So, for me, acknowledging that meat comes from dead animals with faces -- animals that were raised to be killed for food -- not magickal animals that get swooped up the instant they keel over of natural causes; nor does my meat magickally regenerate in the store. So acknowledging where my meat comes from and acknowledging that I still really like to eat meat and am not going to give it up is a dilemma I have pondered and will continue to ponder. Reading "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" and "The Omnivores Dilemma" were pivotal experiences for me -- and for all of the other people who put those books on the best seller list. So, for me, at this point, the "search for the meaning of life" = "search for the meaning of food".

                                        So, to me, success in this thread will be when Bluey (picking on you acknowledges that it is not only possible; but more and more likely that nice, "bright", well intentioned people -- NOT IDIOTS, Bluey -- in their "gut" cannot fathom how another nice, bright, well intentioned human can look something in the eye, kill it, and eat it -- much less raise an animal from a baby; looking it in its eyes every day; for the purpose of killing it / or sending it to slaughter so we can eat meat.

                                        The Vegans actually don't matter as much as the majority of the American population who have zero experience or knowledge of agriculture -- all of the people who eat meat, but are in denial about &/or very uncomfortable with whatever goes on prior to the supermarket meat display.

                                        I now an inkling after 2 years of my Idiot Moves to Farm misadventures of just how mind boggling and frustrating it is for a farmer to try to even figure out where to begin with someone expressing views like Devon'sView; and any farmer reading probably cannot fathom how somebody could have some firm convictions that seemingly have no basis in reality.

                                        My warning to farmers is that those views are absolutely grounded in reality -- the reality that the majority of the people in this country grow up in -- THEIR food comes from the store -- NOT from animals with faces and not from plants that grow in the dirty ground. And, when they look behind the curtain and get a glimpse of the Secret Life of Food before it lines the grocery store shelves and the meat displays they are NOT happy at all. So, your AG consumers - unless you are making a living selling directly to consumers who are consciously choosing to support your farm and farming methods -- will support any regulation & / or non-profit that offers to deal with that "unpleasantness" behind the supermarket curtain and you surely cannot count on them to stand beside you to protect your livlihood & way of life.

                                        UNLESS you get these "idiots" involved in real live farms and give this first person experiences -- how will their "reality" change? Success will be when DevonView voluntarily refers a meat eating friend to a farmer she knows; a farmer who she knows, in her gut, is a really good human being -- even if said farmer kills animals.

                                        Our nation's strategy of shielding us from the agricultural processes that produce the food that we eat has gotten us into a big, big mess. But, I'm still cautiously hopeful.
                                        Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

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                                        • Originally posted by ldaziens View Post
                                          I don't think the goal is to CHANGE anyone's mind per se; but I can go through my own life and very clearly see different points in time where I learned something that made me question my beliefs and judgments about the world and people in it. And, yes, my mind definitely changed.

                                          Yes!!

                                          Exactly!

                                          I think the vast majority of Americans agree; which is probably why the American supermarket meat dept. looks the way it does -- unlike countries where whole animal carcasses and often live animals ready for choosing are on display at the butcher. I guess the vast majority of Americans are okay w/ looking seafood and especially lobsters in the eye; though I imagine the number of Americans who have purchased a live lobster to eat is relatively small and a lot of headless shrimp are sold.

                                          "Don't Eat Aything With a Face" is the Vegan mantra. They realize that once they look something in the eye, they can't eat it; so they don't. I respect that conviction.

                                          Personally, I was much more blissful when I was ignorant and thought meat "came from the store". So, for me, acknowledging that meat comes from dead animals with faces -- animals that were raised to be killed for food -- not magickal animals that get swooped up the instant they keel over of natural causes; nor does my meat magickally regenerate in the store. So acknowledging where my meat comes from and acknowledging that I still really like to eat meat and am not going to give it up is a dilemma I have pondered and will continue to ponder. Reading "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" and "The Omnivores Dilemma" were pivotal experiences for me -- and for all of the other people who put those books on the best seller list. So, for me, at this point, the "search for the meaning of life" = "search for the meaning of food".

                                          So, to me, success in this thread will be when Bluey (picking on you acknowledges that it is not only possible; but more and more likely that nice, "bright", well intentioned people -- NOT IDIOTS, Bluey -- in their "gut" cannot fathom how another nice, bright, well intentioned human can look something in the eye, kill it, and eat it -- much less raise an animal from a baby; looking it in its eyes every day; for the purpose of killing it / or sending it to slaughter so we can eat meat.

                                          The Vegans actually don't matter as much as the majority of the American population who have zero experience or knowledge of agriculture -- all of the people who eat meat, but are in denial about &/or very uncomfortable with whatever goes on prior to the supermarket meat display.

                                          Agree - most people are totally clueless about where their food comes from.


                                          I now an inkling after 2 years of my Idiot Moves to Farm misadventures of just how mind boggling and frustrating it is for a farmer to try to even figure out where to begin with someone expressing views like Devon'sView; and any farmer reading probably cannot fathom how somebody could have some firm convictions that seemingly have no basis in reality.

                                          My warning to farmers is that those views are absolutely grounded in reality -- the reality that the majority of the people in this country grow up in -- THEIR food comes from the store -- NOT from animals with faces and not from plants that grow in the dirty ground. And, when they look behind the curtain and get a glimpse of the Secret Life of Food before it lines the grocery store shelves and the meat displays they are NOT happy at all. So, your AG consumers - unless you are making a living selling directly to consumers who are consciously choosing to support your farm and farming methods -- will support any regulation & / or non-profit that offers to deal with that "unpleasantness" behind the supermarket curtain and you surely cannot count on them to stand beside you to protect your livlihood & way of life.

                                          YES YES YES

                                          UNLESS you get these "idiots" involved in real live farms and give this first person experiences -- how will their "reality" change? Success will be when DevonView voluntarily refers a meat eating friend to a farmer she knows; a farmer who she knows, in her gut, is a really good human being -- even if said farmer kills animals.

                                          Our nation's strategy of shielding us from the agricultural processes that produce the food that we eat has gotten us into a big, big mess. But, I'm still cautiously hopeful.



                                          Yes again!!
                                          The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                                          H. Cate

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