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Pierce County, Washington seizure?

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  • Pierce County, Washington seizure?

    NBC News is reporting a seizure of 39 horses outside of Tacoma, WA.

    Arabians, Belgians and Clydes all reported as "emaciated and sickly" and it's reported that they have been locked in the barns and are barely handled.

    Anyone close by who has heard anything about this place?

  • #2
    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...ashington-farm

    They don't look skinny, however their living conditions were really not up to par.

    Enough to warrant a seizure?
    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I just find it quite curious; how many times do people scream about neglect and bitch because as long as the horses have food/water no one will do anything, and suddenly we have a few cases where it is the conditions, not outright starvation that results in the removal of horses and the first thing you hear is "They aren't starving, they're just doing it because of (take your choice) mean neighbors/nasty public officials/the horses are soooo valuable, etc!"

      In this case it doesn't seem that there was any choice about removing them; the living conditions, if as stated, were horrid. And I'm impressed to see the ventilation/stench and presence of feet of manure being a reason for it; usually this is where animal control uses the "they're being fed" line as a reason not to take them, regardless of lung damage/ feet issues.

      It is quite a puzzle; do we want it to be just feeding/watering, or do we want other forms of neglect to be actionable? And how do we come up with a fair and reasonable list of actionable conditions when it is so hard to come to agreement on what is "acceptable"?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
        In this case it doesn't seem that there was any choice about removing them; the living conditions, if as stated, were horrid. And I'm impressed to see the ventilation/stench and presence of feet of manure being a reason for it; usually this is where animal control uses the "they're being fed" line as a reason not to take them, regardless of lung damage/ feet issues.

        I agree with you.

        In some cases like this one, AC's wouldn't do anything, in some they would give the owner x days to correct the situation and in some, as they did here, they would seize immediately.

        Not all animal cruelty statutes are written the same.
        Last edited by luvmytbs; Sep. 27, 2012, 11:39 AM.
        ************************
        \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

        Comment


        • #5
          Since everyone knows that the Chronicle Forums reach far and wide, I need to know who the person involved in the seizure is. The reason that I do is that I sold some Arabian breeding stock a few years ago to someone in that area and I am concerned, in particular for a young stallion. If you are not comfortable with posting here, please PM me. The guy who bought them seemed nice, but there were a few things he said that concerned me as far as his financial condition, and his ability to keep things afloat in the long run. I had no solid reason to deny the sale and so went through with it. I have tried calling his phone number but it has been disconnected. He does still show as the owner of the stallion on the AHA lookup. I would really appreciate it if someone can help. In the event that the horses are sold eventually, I would certainly want to buy any horses that he still had that he had obtained from me. Thanks all.
          Last edited by firelizardfarm; Sep. 27, 2012, 11:20 AM. Reason: clarification by punctuation
          Second place is first loser.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't think that the conditions there would warrant a seizure in real world animal control operations... we all know people who report MUCH worse and beg and plead for months or years to get something done while one moldy bale of hay in the barn "prevents AC from doing anything... they have feed on premisis" type deal...

            Those horses in the vid were in good body weight and yes, the conditions were gross and unhealthy... but I think the only reason why AC acted was because FEDS told them to.

            I also think it's interesting how being "unhandled" is being framed as abusive (which I do agree with from a personal POV, but not from a legal POV)

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Plainandtall View Post
              I don't think that the conditions there would warrant a seizure in real world animal control operations... we all know people who report MUCH worse and beg and plead for months or years to get something done while one moldy bale of hay in the barn "prevents AC from doing anything... they have feed on premisis" type deal...

              Those horses in the vid were in good body weight and yes, the conditions were gross and unhealthy... but I think the only reason why AC acted was because FEDS told them to.

              I also think it's interesting how being "unhandled" is being framed as abusive (which I do agree with from a personal POV, but not from a legal POV)
              But should it warrant a seizure?
              And why is it so hard to get a set list of acceptable/unacceptable conditions; it could be set for the temp. zones (like they have for plants); if it gets X degrees to X degrees this is what is acceptable for this area. Or something similar.

              Are feet 6 inches too long unacceptable? 12 inches?
              How many times can the horses escape the fencing and trot down the road, endangering others?
              How skinny is too skinny?
              How much water is to be available to the horse at X degrees?
              How long can a wound go untreated? Should it be set by the size/depth of the wound?

              How can we turn the subjective into the objective?

              Comment


              • #8
                Apparently another warrant was being served at the property, and the federal agents saw the barns, and called in AC. According one article I read the barns were totally shut, the animals never saw daylight, and the ammonia stench made seasoned agents sick. Apparentlyly the compacted manure and urine was over a foot deep in the stalls, and the animals never left their stalls, and it's been compared to breeding puppy mill for horses. According to the article below the DEA agents turned the owner in:

                http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/0...es-seized.html

                Firelizard-the address is in the article I cited, but no name yet. You might be able to get the property owner's address from googling Pierce County, and real estate property records. Many places have very complete records online.
                You can't fix stupid-Ron White

                Comment


                • #9
                  This one even made the London news:
                  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ashington.html

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This link mentions tumors, facial injuries and foot problems.
                    http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-39-h...tory?track=rss

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I didn't watch the whole video and I didn't have the sound on but oh my GOD. That is the most disgusting horse barn I think I've ever seen.

                      The horses I saw did at least appear to be in good weight but man, their feet must be terrible and I expect they've all got mental issues from being locked in dark stalls for so long.
                      The Trials and Jubilations of a Twenty-Something Re-rider
                      Happy owner of Kieran the mostly-white-very-large-not-pony.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Plainandtall View Post
                        I don't think that the conditions there would warrant a seizure in real world animal control operations... we all know people who report MUCH worse and beg and plead for months or years to get something done while one moldy bale of hay in the barn "prevents AC from doing anything... they have feed on premisis" type deal...

                        Those horses in the vid were in good body weight and yes, the conditions were gross and unhealthy... but I think the only reason why AC acted was because FEDS told them to.

                        I also think it's interesting how being "unhandled" is being framed as abusive (which I do agree with from a personal POV, but not from a legal POV)
                        The conditions in that barn were disgusting and not anywhere close to acceptable. Weight is not the only factor in abuse. In my experiences, Animal Control agencies in this area are pretty good about evaluating conditions and taking action when needed... I wouldn't be surprised if they would have acted had they been notified even without direction from the Feds. MUCH better than many (if not most) areas of the country. IMO it looked like action was needed. We have had virtually no rain since July on the west side of the mountains and there is absolutely NO reason why there should or would be mud and standing water in the barn aisle. I loathe the thought of what that place would have looked like in two months when the rains are going strong. I'm certainly wary of animals being seized for reasons which are questionable but I have little doubt it was the right course of action in this case.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JanM View Post
                          Apparently another warrant was being served at the property, and the federal agents saw the barns, and called in AC. According one article I read the barns were totally shut, the animals never saw daylight, and the ammonia stench made seasoned agents sick. Apparentlyly the compacted manure and urine was over a foot deep in the stalls, and the animals never left their stalls, and it's been compared to breeding puppy mill for horses. According to the article below the DEA agents turned the owner in:

                          http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/0...es-seized.html

                          Firelizard-the address is in the article I cited, but no name yet. You might be able to get the property owner's address from googling Pierce County, and real estate property records. Many places have very complete records online.


                          Do not believe one word regarding this seizure

                          My state government contact tells me this is not adding up

                          If the stalls were filled with 12 inches of manure..how come the grey horse is clearn?

                          There is no evidence of matted manes or tails. Water was in the stalls. The thin horse has been identified as 30 years old and she is not all that thin

                          The owner is a doctor

                          If all the horses were locked away in the barn "for months" how come it took them nine hours to round them up

                          I suspect the horses were just put into the barn. Since the photos show them unloaded from a trailer (wild horses going in and out of trailers?..not likely..especially the way the one unloaded..no problems..) AND the hooves were in okay shape.

                          This does not appear to be abuse . I have NEVER known D.E.A. to be involved in a horse rescue.

                          Nah...this is not a rescue case..there is something else going on here
                          The Elephant in the room

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just in from a person who lives close by. They are already soliciting funds on the local TV statlion to help these poor creatures they are now blaming breeders.

                            Can anyone recognize the smell?
                            The Elephant in the room

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I was wondering when Fairfax would chime in with his scam theories.

                              ************************
                              \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                Do not believe one word regarding this seizure

                                My state government contact tells me this is not adding up

                                If the stalls were filled with 12 inches of manure..how come the grey horse is clearn?

                                There is no evidence of matted manes or tails. Water was in the stalls. The thin horse has been identified as 30 years old and she is not all that thin

                                The owner is a doctor

                                If all the horses were locked away in the barn "for months" how come it took them nine hours to round them up

                                I suspect the horses were just put into the barn. Since the photos show them unloaded from a trailer (wild horses going in and out of trailers?..not likely..especially the way the one unloaded..no problems..) AND the hooves were in okay shape.

                                This does not appear to be abuse . I have NEVER known D.E.A. to be involved in a horse rescue.

                                Nah...this is not a rescue case..there is something else going on here

                                No telling, unless they wanted to go in there with any one excuse and saying the horses were abused was the only one they could think to do so, then they could go on looking for whatever else they were looking for?

                                Or maybe they went in there and then found the horses in sad condition as they say.

                                Not adding up can go either way, it was bad, or maybe not.

                                Guess that is one more situation we have to wait to hear more.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Broke waterline in the barn

                                  Head of rescue has been criticized before as she is married to the county sheriff who is involved in ALL equine seizures

                                  All press releases are coordinated by D.E.A.

                                  They did not have trailers to accomodate the draft horses who ALL loaded first time. They did have a couple of problems with 4-6 younger horses. Everyone else loaded.

                                  9 hours "herding time" to catch them all. NEVER happened.

                                  The county is very short of money. An excuse was required to justify the expense of having PRIVATE individuals bring in large trailers.

                                  Who cares what you think Luvy...you never have relevant information

                                  Heck...even the news haven't disclosed the owner is a Doctor. But they soon will
                                  The Elephant in the room

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    p.s. their local news have been showing pictures of many of the horses (am trying to get a link) and I am hearing they are NOT in bad shape...have been groomed....not dirty and there is feed on the property with evidence horses had been fed.
                                    The Elephant in the room

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      A lady who claims to have been there and was on some talk line on the radio there (nope..I didn't hear it and this is all second hand) stated that some of the horses were shy (maybe the Arabs) but they were able to catch them and put them IN THE STALLS before the D.E.A. did their inspection.

                                      She did not say whether or not there were horses already in the stalls but it does debunk the statement on NBC that ALL of the horses were locked away in a dark and gringy barn
                                      The Elephant in the room

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                        She did not say whether or not there were horses already in the stalls but it does debunk the statement on NBC that ALL of the horses were locked away in a dark and gringy barn
                                        Guess what: right away we pointed out that the horses shown did not look emaciated as was stated by the media.
                                        You think we are blind?

                                        Until more information is provided by a RELIABLE source, no-one is jumping to conclusions except for Mr. Leo Conspiracy.
                                        ************************
                                        \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

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